Turks Are European Now?

[Vigil]

www,stormfront,org

 

Before I begin I would like to make one thing clear which is that in no way do I endorse, agree, or affiliate with any member or moderator on the forum.

 

On the surface it is a "white nationalist" forum, which basically is not as extreme as the KKK or “Skins”, but it makes for interesting reads especially when there are 5 or 6 Armenian posters.

 

In general the Armenian users are not racist nor do they present the subject matter with racist co-notations. On the contrary they present their stance intelligently and have intelligently confronted Turkish members that try to “pass off” as European. They also post topics related to Armenian history and culture.

 

Furthermore, the Armenian users in general never state or endorse the belief that they are “White” or “European”, but rather from what I can tell feel that because the word “Armenian” was used to describe Armenians before “European” was used to describe Europeans it would be better to just label Armenians as “Armenians”.

 

Anyways, part of the reason I am posting this is because I find it scary how people of Turkish decent constantly claim they are "white" or "European". Personally, as a Armenian I do not affiliate my self with "Europeans" or "whites" even though we have much in common historically and socially. I may feel a stronger bond with a person of let us say "Greek" or “Persian” decent, but in no way do I claim that I am actually "Greek" or “Persian” nor do I claim I have been "Greek or Persian in the past".

 

However, the same can not be said of a Turk. There are a couple Turks who post in the above forum claiming they are "European" and that the "Dark races should be cleansed"? What in fact is their motive? See for someone of "Norse" or "Japanese" decent, who indeed lives in a racial hegemonic society, I can sympathize with their reasons not to become a mongrelized race. Even Armenians, who hold a decent hegemonic gene pool due to the fact that racial mixing was a one way street in which Turks (Mongols) "coerced" (being PC) Armenian woman and Turkified Armenian men, hold valid reasons as to why they do not want to racially diversify their society, but a Turk in my opinion has no valid reason.

 

Turkish reasoning is just ludicrous because they claim contemporary Turks come from Turkified Indo-European races that lived in Anatolia, but at the same time call themselves Turks. The entire backbone of the argument logically does not make sense. How can you claim you are “white” or “European” by stating you displaced the population by force? You are anything but ‘white” and are indeed far from being “European”. I am sorry, but this needs stop.

 

They claim that because they "inter-mingled" (raped, stole, and butchered) with the "Indo-European" stock [Armenians, Greeks, Byzantine, Persians, "Kurds?", and Nordic children?) they are technically "European" and thus, should be welcomed into the European Union. I mean yes, technically some Turks are "white", but if we use these terms to "justify" reasons of integrating two cultures into a society then we must also assume that indeed a Israeli is no different then a Philistine because they both look Semitic.

 

What I find fascinating is how low the Turkish self-esteem really is. They are "proud to be Turks", but at the same time claim descendent from anyone except a Turk. It is true that historically, Proto-Armenians, who migrated from the west, intermingled with the Urartu and vice versa, but in no way do I feel more “European” than “Armenian”. In general I am Armenian and historically Armenians have always got the short end of the stick due to our neighbors either bumping heads with one another or with us, but at the very end we had a civilization that existed at least 1000 years before the birth of Christ.

 

Urartu and the Proto-Armenians that “Western” historians claim are ancestors of Armenians are indeed what compromises the genetic make up of Armenians today. I can “technically” state that indeed Armenians do have some kinship to “Europeans”, but they also are “natives” of the Armenian highland (Eastern Anatolia), nevertheless, in no way do I feel “proud” of being ‘European” before first being “Armenian”.

 

In fact I can go as far as saying that I feel an equal kinship towards the Urartu, Hittites, and the Phrygians that may make up my genetic make up today. I can go as far as saying that Armenians can trace their contemporary genetic make up to any citizen of the above civilizations, but in no way are they “Armenianized Urartuians” or “Armenianized Phrygians”. If Turks indeed want to be labeled ‘White” they would first need to rename their country “Armenia”, “Greece”, and “Phrygia”. Furthermore, they would need to give up any “nationalistic pride” that they have towards being descendents of Attila, Genghis Khan, or any other “Mongoloid” barbarian that Turks in general have a “woody” for. At the very least they would need to give up Islam due to the fact that Islam and Christianity are very extremes ends as religious doctrine.

 

If a Turk wants to be European then I would rather be a Semite. If “intellectuals” allow this distortion to continue then I do not want to be labeled a “European”. Lets face it the only “identity” a Turk has is the one in his head because one day they label themselves as ‘Turks”, but are ashamed to call themselves one, instead, they try and pass themselves off as a Turkified Greek, Armenian, and [insert Anatolian and Armenian highland civilization here].

 

This goes back to my theory that indeed there is nothing Turkish in Turkey and what is scary is that I see parallels between Turkey and American, however, at least Americans are proud of being American and at the very end do not run way from their own history. If you attend any American university in general the historians do not claim that natives of America all of sudden vanished or that they died in some fabricated civil war. In fact I can at least give Americans where credit is due in that they place their history in front of their citizens and ask them to “love it or leave it”. However, the same can not be said of a Turk in that he falsely believes the fabrications of his government and goes as far as stating that he indeed is “European” or ‘White” because his grandfather raped his grandmother, which in my opinion is disgusting.

 

Anyways, just browsed through the forum and found some interesting threads. Is the forum biased? Yes, which is why you should avoid it if you are a “liberal” or “free spirit”, but if you have an open mind and are not offended by some content then by all means check it out because I find some of the threads highly educational. However, with any information presented on the internet you should research the sources and not take it as is, but at least check it out first. I mean in my opinion it’s interesting to see the stance “Europeans” or “whites” take on Armenian issues.

 

In closing I would like to state that at one point I did not care if Turks wanted to be labeled “European”, but now that I think of it if they indeed succeed then revisionist also do as well, which is why from now on I am taking a firm stance on just saying “No” to Turks.

[THOTH]

Turkey is what it is and Turks are what they are...why do you care really? (unless you are concerned about finding some long lost kin?...)

 

What worries me is you and other Armenians who feel the need to post (& like you be apoligetic for) & be involved with those types on stormfront.

[Vigil]

Turkey is what it is and Turks are what they are...why do you care really? (unless you are concerned about finding some long lost kin?...)

 

Why insult me? Did I insult you? No.

 

The point of my thread was basically how stupid it is for a Turk to claim he is "white" or "European". In no way am I stating that being "white" or "European" is anything to be proud of, but if they choose to be labeled "white" or "European" I refrain from labeling my self "white" or "European".

 

Now you can continue to quickly label me a "racist", but if you read my thread you will notice that my comments are not "racist" and in no way "offense" unless you are Turkish, but even then I am just being blunt and not really offensive. In fact in no where near my post am I being offensive towards anyone.

 

Again I would like to state that if you allow Turks to claim they are "European" then in a way you are supporting revisionists because we all know that socially, cultural, and geographically a Turk is no where near a "European".

 

Please STOP insulting me just because you do not have the capacity to read some comments on a "white" forum. It is not like I am saying some lame comment like "yeah, we need to lynch black people", but rather am just pointing out that it is dangerous for a Turk to claim he is "European" or "white" because eventually they can lay claim to what indeed is Armenian history.

 

Now you can quickly be a "good socialite" and label me a racist, but at least if you do so make sure I indeed am one or else stop putting words in my mouth.

 

If someone wants to be racially "white" and stay "white" that does not mean they are racist nor does it give you the right to state that they are doing something wrong.

 

If you read my posts you will notice that I never stated that ethnically or racially sojourning is bad, but rather am just stating that if you would like to preserve your identity you are taking a step in the wrong direction and the fact that you can not speak Armenian is a testament to that.

 

The reason I bring this up is because the only reason you always label me a “racist” is because I hold a view that contradicts with your very existence. Thoth, just because you are half Armenian that does not mean you have to impose your will on me. You are just calling me a racist because your entire existence contradicts with my statements and I can go as far as stating that your existence in my opinion is the anti-thesis of “preserving”. Nevertheless, I still have no right to label you a “bigot” just because you find it ok for someone to ethnically or racially sojourn.

 

What worries me is you and other Armenians who feel the need to post (& like you be apoligetic for) & be involved with those types on stormfront.

 

 

What part of "in no way do I endorse, agree, or affiliate with any member or moderator on the forum" don't you understand? I am not a member of that forum, however, I find some of the responses interesting that is all. Even if I was member, which I am not, it does not change the idea of post.

 

Why is it that just because they are "white nationalist" you automatically refrain from at least reading some comments on the forum? It is not like the Jewish community, who "white nationals" criticize, likes Armenians. So, why should I get upset that a few "white nationals" want to bash Jews when Jews ally themselves with Turks?

 

Like I stated earlier some of the comments on the above forum are a bit extreme and biased, but it is still interesting how even "white nationals" consider Turks Mongols. I have no quarrels with "white nationals" as long as they have none with Armenians, but at the very end their response to Armenian history and culture is interesting.

 

It is not wise to automatically label someone a "racist" when in fact there must be a reason as to why even a "racist" individual feels the way they do. I sympathize with "white nationals" in sense, but because they are a bit extreme, do not really support them due to the fact that at the very end they find it hard to believe that the Armenian civilization existed before the terms "white" or "European" were coined.

[THOTH]

Vigil - where have I called you a racist?

 

I have looked over that forum in the past - I find very little of real interest there.

 

My comment was that I find that those who obsess with such racial categorizations and concerns worries me a bit. No problem with being interested in ones history and even lineage - micro as well as macro - however once one begins categorizations of "us vs them" and such I find this tends to quickly lead to prouncements such as we are better then they are and more pure and such...I just don't see much at all positve comming out of anythign along these lines.

 

So what - the Turks are a mixed bunch...we know that...in many ways -I think - that can be an advantage. Armenians are mixed as well - OK - not to the degree...but whats the point really? Turks have adopted (aspects of) the cultures they came to rule/be amongst...that is understood as well...and I do find this Pan-Turkism and such to be distasteful as well - and somewhat humourous in addition to being disturbing...so why would we want to mimic that?

[THOTH]

If someone wants to be racially "white" and stay "white" that does not mean they are racist nor does it give you the right to state that they are doing something wrong. 

wrong? misguided certainly....having pride in ones European (what is "white?") heritage/achievements is one thing...considering that anyone who is not the same as you and that they are lesser humans because of it, well...

 

If you read my posts you will notice that I never stated that ethnically or racially sojourning is bad, but rather am just stating that if you would like to preserve your identity you are taking a step in the wrong direction and the fact that you can not speak Armenian is a testament to that.

 

I am happy with my identity. Preservation makes me think "formaldehyde" - we are not stuck in time....we move foreward. I don't mean to belittle Armenian culture/history or such - and I sympathyze with your desire to maintain Armenain identity and to continue our culture - but you cannot expect that this is a static thing and you cannot expect that all - or even most Armenians will continue to practive traditional ways. But we are Armenian....and we will remain so...it is in our blood and we will express it in as we do/will....

 

The reason I bring this up is because the only reason you always label me a “racist” is because I hold a view that contradicts with your very existence. Thoth, just because you are half Armenian that does not mean you have to impose your will on me. You are just calling me a racist because your entire existence contradicts with my statements and I can go as far as stating that your existence in my opinion is the anti-thesis of “preserving”. Nevertheless, I still have no right to label you a “bigot” just because you find it ok for someone to ethnically or racially sojourn.

 

Your assertions here are entirely incorrect. When have I imposed anythign on you. I've only pointed out that your view is narrow....it is not the only valid perspective. I offer an alternative one...others have theirs as well...all perhaps equally valid...or at least with there own merit. You seem to be the one (one of the ones) making prounouncements claiming that your way is the way things should be and exhorting others to live like you wish them to...etc

 

I am not a member of that forum, however, I find some of the responses interesting that is all. Even if I was member, which I am not, it does not change the idea of post.

 

I read your post. My response was not addressing the substance of your post - nor did I address your affiliation with racist elements, nor did I denigrate you in any way - IMO. I only expressed concern with those who obsess so much on race (as OK - you seem to do...)- and in fact - these guys do - that I find such counterproductive - and when taken to the point that they take it - well - very negative and ultimately rather disgusting. While some information that some post on the site has some interest - most is from a very skewed point of view and most has little to do with real historical or anthropological study. (its not on my favorites list BTW)

 

Why is it that just because they are "white nationalist" you automatically refrain from at least reading some comments on the forum? It is not like the Jewish community, who "white nationals" criticize, likes Armenians. So, why should I get upset that a few "white nationals" want to bash Jews when Jews ally themselves with Turks?

 

I don't "automatically" refrain from reading things because of someones affiliation...however as time is limiuted...and the volumes of trash on the interenet ans such is immense - I do choose not to waste my time with material of dubious merit and of unpleasent tone. Why bash people for their race at all? Yes - "bashing" people because of their race...and then going on to inslt them and denigrate them...because of their race...I do find that very insulting and distasteful...as any Armenian certainly should....and as any human being should...

 

...it is still interesting how even "white nationals" consider Turks Mongols. I have no quarrels with "white nationals" as long as they have none with Armenians, but at the very end their response to Armenian history and culture is interesting.

 

I consider "white nationals" to be "mongols"....do you find that interesting? No beef with white nationals...as long as they are cool with Armenians...."first they came for the trade unionist, but I wasn't one...then they came for the..." etc etc...familiar? Are you likewise a fan of Pol Pot? He didn't have any position on Armenians.

 

It is not wise to automatically label someone a "racist" when in fact there must be a reason as to why even a "racist" individual feels the way they do.

 

What was Talat's good reason? Surely he had justification? Sadaam didn't like Kurds or Shiites...Ok...etc etc...yes - just why do racist people feel the way they do? Why must they feel the need to elevate themselves (by denigrating others...) in their own eyes - because of their "race" (versus something that they themselves [as individuals] can be proud of)

 

I sympathize with "white nationals" in sense, but because they are a bit extreme, do not really support them due to the fact that at the very end they find it hard to believe that the Armenian civilization existed before the terms "white" or "European" were coined.

 

LOL...that you sympathize at all says volumes about you dear Vigil - and that is not a good thing. (just where do your sympathize lie Vigil? Where do your views overlap? ...hatred of "Jews", "White Pride"...hail the purebloods? just what are you saying sir?) ANd that you are apauled that they don't recognize the great Armenian culture and all the wonderful achievements of Armenains throughout history...well - how could they not? They are so very much into history and ascribing cultural achievements and connecting such to race and so on and so forth...(we're a) little to dark for them I guess...

Edited July 12, 2004 by THOTH

[Boghos]

Turks are Turks. Vigil...well, Vigil is Vigil. What else could you expect ?

[THOTH]

Turks are Turks. Vigil...well, Vigil is Vigil. What else could you expect ?

Isn't that what I just said?

[Boghos]

Isn't that what I just said?

Yes. But I believe in the power of synthesis.

[Vigil]

wrong? misguided certainly....having pride in ones European (what is "white?") heritage/achievements is one thing...considering that anyone who is not the same as you and that they are lesser humans because of it, well...

 

Yes, that is stupid.

 

The main idea that I am stressing is the fact that Turks are getting away with basically changing history by claiming they are "European". At this point it is not a question of race, but more so, is if indeed Turks are "European".

 

Their population in western Turkey is "white", but socially and historically they are anything but "European" or "white", which is why they have no right to want to be "European".

 

What part of Turkish society is actually "European" or "white"? Linguistically, religiously, and historically they have no connection with Europe, so, why should the European population give them an opportunity to join the European Union? They should not, which is what my main point is here.

 

I am happy with my identity. Preservation makes me think "formaldehyde" - we are not stuck in time....we move foreward. I don't mean to belittle Armenian culture/history or such - and I sympathyze with your desire to maintain Armenain identity and to continue our culture - but you cannot expect that this is a static thing and you cannot expect that all - or even most Armenians will continue to practive traditional ways. But we are Armenian....and we will remain so...it is in our blood and we will express it in as we do/will

 

Listen, I am not going to get into this and I honestly do not want to derail the thread. My entire point was that I can not expect to prove you wrong because by doing so I am insulting you due to fact that you are half Armenian. Since I do not want to antagonize you any further I will drop the "preservation" issue when discussing things with you.

 

However, before I drop the subject I would like to remind you that the only way to gurantee the survival of the Armenian identity is to marry inside the culture. For someone that can not understand the language due to the fact that only one of his parents are Armenian the damage of ethnically sojourning should be evident, but because being wrong would question your own existence, you try and state that it holds no drawbacks when in fact it does.

 

To be honest I have no right to tell you are not "Armenian" that is not my goal, however, I am just letting you know that if indeed wants to preserve their identity they should marry inside the ethnicity. Let us be honest and accept the fact there can never be someone who is a quarter Armenian.

 

Either you are Armenian or you are not, but the chances of you actually picking your identity among the 4 and actually taking time to preserve it for future generations is a long shot.

 

I can not say I am one hundred percent right due to the fact that I do not what will happen to Armenians in the future, but historically the Armenian communities that have assimilated in general have gone extinct and since more than fifty percent of population lives abroad inter-ethnic marriage should not be taken lightly.

 

Your assertions here are entirely incorrect. When have I imposed anythign on you. I've only pointed out that your view is narrow....it is not the only valid perspective. I offer an alternative one...others have theirs as well...all perhaps equally valid...or at least with there own merit. You seem to be the one (one of the ones) making prounouncements claiming that your way is the way things should be and exhorting others to live like you wish them to...etc

 

My way will guarantee the survival of Armenians, however, I am not going to continue this topic because it is derailing the thread.

 

I was just trying to point out that ever since I took a firm stance on the subject you and some other members have been constantly on my case, which holds merit if you can prove me wrong, but TAP and I are still waiting for a "reply" to our stance.

 

There just is no way to justify inter-ethnic marriage by stating that "yes, indeed, we can preserve our identity by doing so" because the bottom line is you can't. Now if you would like to do that then by all means do so, but do not come here claiming that you can keep your identity for future generations by doing so because the fact that you can not speak Armenian is indeed a sign that cultural preservation can only be accomplished by marrying inside your ethnicity.

 

AGAIN I am going to stop here because this topic for some strange reason keeps coming up. My point in this thread is not about cultural preservation and to be honest I do not want to continue this discussion because it is pointless.

 

My entire point again is the fact that I find it disgusting that Turks feel they are "white" or "European" when in fact the only way they became somewhat "white" or "European" looking is by forcibly imposing their ideals on the indigenous population. Furthermore, I find the entire notion of the joining the European Union even more ludicrous do to the fact that socially and historically hold no connection with Europe.

 

I read your post. My response was not addressing the substance of your post - nor did I address your affiliation with racist elements, nor did I denigrate you in any way - IMO. I only expressed concern with those who obsess so much on race (as OK - you seem to do...)- and in fact - these guys do - that I find such counterproductive - and when taken to the point that they take it - well - very negative and ultimately rather disgusting. While some information that some post on the site has some interest - most is from a very skewed point of view and most has little to do with real historical or anthropological study. (its not on my favorites list BTW)

 

By all means you have a right to not want to browse the forum, but do not label the posters or the content racist because eventually you to will be labeled a racist at some point in the future.

 

I just do not like the fact that individual all of sudden brand someone a racist when in fact they have no idea where that person is coming. For you to live in already racially diverse society may find it ok to "racially mix" due to the fact that "racially mixing" will indeed racially homogenize the United States, which is a good for this nation, but be warned that Romans also tried to racially homogenize their civilization.

 

However, a German or French citizen, on the other hand, is not forced into a situation he or she may not be use to nor feel is stable. Why should a Germany or any country like Germany want to racially diversify their country when in fact the United States wants to racially homogenize their nation? It is a choice that will impact any nation for years to come, which is why the decisions should not be taken lightly.

 

A German, who is confronted with 3 million Turks, has all the right in the world to try and stop the racially imbalance due to the fact that 3 million will one day become 50 million. How in the world are Germans going to deal with 50 million Turks? Yes, if all Turks indeed did look 'European" and were Christians then eventually they would be absorbed into the population like Armenians, Greeks, and any other European Diaspora. However, they are socially and racially much different then Europeans, which is why a German has all the right in the world to fear the arrival of Turks.

 

For instance some experts in France are warning the Government that Moslim communities are being isolated due to social differences. They are forming their own isolated communities in which "radical" Islam is taking root.

 

Now I do not know about you, but Turks and Muslims (Not Persians) in general do not have a positive track record. I for one would also be concerned if I was in their shoes, which is why to call them racist is not right.

 

Equally I feel that Jews on the other hand are also a segregated community, but because they have the luxury of racially diversifying their population they do not face constant collisions with the indigenous population. However, at the very end a Jew always holds his loyalties to Israel, which is evident by the shear fact that American companies are relocating to Israel and also due to the strong bond between the Jewish Diaspora and their country.

 

I for one do not blame any of these "White Nationals" for being concerned about the increase in populations of Muslims, Jews, or Turks in their respective countries because all of these racially, ethnic, and social groups are not like Armenians to assimilate into society after a period of time. At the very end they will always remain a diverse and isolated community, which will always increase in population until they outnumber the indigenous population.

 

This creates a very unstable situation. For instance in Lebanon the Philistines that immigrated to Lebanon eventually tried to "bully" the Christian population, which is partially the whole reason behind the turmoil in Lebanon. In fact I can go far as stating that a racially and socially hegemonic society is indeed crucial to attaining stability.

 

The United States and countries like it are a different case due to fact that they are relatively new and also because no one in America is an actually a native unless you are Native American, which is why Americans socially have to accept immigrants.

 

I don't "automatically" refrain from reading things because of someones affiliation...however as time is limiuted...and the volumes of trash on the interenet ans such is immense - I do choose not to waste my time with material of dubious merit and of unpleasent tone. Why bash people for their race at all? Yes - "bashing" people because of their race...and then going on to inslt them and denigrate them...because of their race...I do find that very insulting and distasteful...as any Armenian certainly should....and as any human being should...

 

No one is bashing individuals for the color of their skin, however, equally it is wrong to automatically accept racially and socially different people just because it may seem like the "noble" thing to do due to fact that in the long run that population will always remain isolated.

 

You can not label someone a racist just because they do not want to racially diversify their communities. As an Armenian I can understand why a "European" does not want to racially diversify their country, however, it is equally wrong to persecute a racially and socially different individual if by chance they live in the community.

 

Even Israel, which holds a pretty liberal Diaspora, has strict immigration laws that only allow people of Jewish decent to migrate to Israel. In your opinion shouldn't the Israeli government also be labeled racist since they do not allow racial and cultural diversity? No, of course not, this is why “White Nationals”, Germans, or the French have an equal right to not accept immigrants.

 

So, do not label someone a racist just because they feel that they do not racially diversify their community due to fact that at the very end any immigrant is still a guest in that respective nation.

 

It is basically like stating that you allow a complete stranger into your home and automatically have to treat him like a family member, when in fact you have never ever meet this person in your life.

 

Just make sure that when you label an individual a racist he actually is one because being racist and actually being concerned for your nations future are two separate labels.

 

I consider "white nationals" to be "mongols"....do you find that interesting? No beef with white nationals...as long as they are cool with Armenians...."first they came for the trade unionist, but I wasn't one...then they came for the..." etc etc...familiar? Are you likewise a fan of Pol Pot? He didn't have any position on Armenians.

 

You may have not understood the point I am trying to make, which basically is that I find their responses towards Armenians very interesting in that they always state how Armenians suffered at the hands of Turks due to social and racial differences. I find this important because it shows that Armenian issues are indeed out there in non Armenian parts of the world, which is a plus.

 

What was Talat's good reason? Surely he had justification? Sadaam didn't like Kurds or Shiites...Ok...etc etc...yes - just why do racist people feel the way they do? Why must they feel the need to elevate themselves (by denigrating others...) in their own eyes - because of their "race" (versus something that they themselves [as individuals] can be proud of)

 

I agree with you there, however, I never stated that "Turks did a good thing" nor am I endorsing racism. All I am stating is that Turks have no right to want to be accepted into European society when in fact historically, racially, and socially they are very different.

 

Yes, if you already have a strong Turkish population in Germany then by all means you should not persecute them because at the very end they are human beings, however, if Turkish immigration should continue is another question. How would you feel if you were surround by 3 million Turks that are racially, socially, and historically different then you? I am sure you would not feel comfortable and due to recent terrorist attacks on Western Civilization does not help to resolve issues. I am just making sure you understand that even a "White National" has a right to not want to racially diversify his society because at the very end he or she is the one that has to absorb the immigrating population.

 

LOL...that you sympathize at all says volumes about you dear Vigil - and that is not a good thing. (just where do your sympathize lie Vigil? Where do your views overlap? ...hatred of "Jews", "White Pride"...hail the purebloods? just what are you saying sir?) ANd that you are apauled that they don't recognize the great Armenian culture and all the wonderful achievements of Armenains throughout history...well - how could they not? They are so very much into history and ascribing cultural achievements and connecting such to race and so on and so forth...(we're a) little to dark for them I guess...

 

Of course I sympathize. How would Armenians feel if all of sudden Turks begin to migrate to North Hollywood, Glendale, New Jersey, Los Angeles, Toronto, New York, and many other Armenian communities across America? I am sure you would not like it due to the fact that historically Armenians and Turks just do not get along. You can not force someone to accept someone of another race, ethnicity, and culture as their own kin.

 

Please do not put words in my mouth. I never stated "I hate Jews", rather, I dislike the way they manipulate the world to weep for their own cause, while at the same time deliberately meddling in other countries or peoples affair.

 

Let me ask you something why is it that the intelligent report of the first and second gulf wars was supplied by Israel, but at the same time you do not see a Israeli dieing in the war on "terror"? Why is it that the information they supplied is wrong, but yet no one points a finger at them? Don't you find it strange that America gives the most aid to Israel, which is much more than the 90 million given to Armenia, but yet in terms of geopolitical cooperation we reap nothing from Israel? How many military bases do we have in Israel? Isn't it strange that almost all the media outlets are run by a Jew? Isn't it strange that the entire banking industry is run by a Jew? You do not find it strange they they’re rejecting the ruling by the international court about the wall they are building? Why is it that they reserve no fear towards the international body, but yet at the same time demand the most from them?

 

No, I do not hate anyone, but I just find it strange that Israel can break all the international laws without any penalty. When a country has at least 150 nukes, while at the same time denying the existence of them, there indeed is something shady going on.

 

I would like to clarify something when I stated that "they find it hard to believe that the Armenian civilization existed before the terms 'white' or 'European' were coined" I did not mean it literally.

 

What I meant was that the origin of the “White” race is not centered around or even remotely near Europe. In fact researchers are finding out more and more that the origins are centered on the Armenian Highlands, which makes sense since linguistically that area of the world historically has been where almost all the Indo-European languages stem from.

[Nakharar]

Having lived in Germany for nearly 4 years now I have come across Turks on a daily basis. That's not too difficult since 1/4 of Frankfurt's 600,000 inhabitants are Turks. Even though there are three million Turks living in Germany, they have a high visibility in the streets, which make them seem more numerous. At first I was amazed to come across so many Turkish people in my life since having lived in California for most of my life Turks were not my concern at all. Like in all Armenian families they were in the shadows, something negative and disturbing lurking in the dark. All in all they are more disadvantaged than the average German in terms of education and opportunities, but in a highly homogenous and ethnocentric community that's what all foreigners including a relatively European looking white-collar worker like myself have to go through. I found most Turks rather pleasant in my daily dealings in restaurants and elsewhere and didn't have problems with them because of my Armenian identity. Most of them have no clue about Armenians anyway. But compared to other ethnic communities they have things going for them. Because of their relatively different culture and religion they won't assimilate like the rest of us. Most of these immigrants are from the backward and poor areas of Turkey so intermarriage is also less likely to happen if at all. But unlike us they are more insular and there is little social mobility. You will find few Turks who have a university degree or work in the international banks in Frankfurt. Well there are Turks where I work but most them are either janitors or work in the cafeteria. They might look shabbier than the Germans, but looking at the rate the Germans are becoming white-trash Germans they will become the envy of the Stormfront lot.

[THOTH]

Thank you Nakharar for your insights. I will be travelling to Germany shortly and will perhaps get to see some of this myself. You should be aware though - that the Turks who have immigrated to Germany and Europe in general have tended to be the ones with the least skills and options in Turkey and are not necissarily typical of those back in Turkey - at least not those in urban or the more developed era. In fact - many Turks from Turkeyt think of the Turks in Germany etc as a bit backward (stuck in time - from when they left)..

 

And as for Turks being European...well what is that? The culture in Turkey is a melding of European and Asian/Middle Eastern....obviously the Islamic tradition is very different than that of EUrope proper (for the most part)...but if you ever visit more urban Turkey you will find it and its people very European (for the vast part) - certainly with a twist - as would be expected. And the countryside is much as it has been and would not be considered very European per se (still what does this mean - what is the definition of such - and what really matters?). So Turkey is fairly unique...but is Greece just like France? Italy like Norway? etc etc - sure Turkey is a bit more out of the mainstream of European culture...but not so far out that it cannot be integrated in the future IMO. And who is to say who is "European" or not. Obviously many Turks are - in day to day culture and outlook - are as much as - or more so Western/Modern/European then many Europeans themselves. There are those who stick to old traditional (agricultural & pastoral) ways and there are those who have adopted more urban (and modern?) approaches/lives. Who is more similar - a Turk who works in the banking or manufacturing industry - as a professional or executive - with a someone in a similar profession in Germany...or some Swiss (or wherever) cow herder (who shares - in all likelyhood - more in common - in their daily life - with a Turkish sheep herder). etc etc

 

I think Turkey should certainly be allowed to and be encouraged to join the European Union (in good time - and once its social and political systems meet standards...and certainly only after "comming clean" in regards to the Genocide - completely - including the modern legacy of denial and recognition of the current cultures debt to Armenians and recognition that the xenophobia and such of the Turks must be recognized and changed)

 

OK - part 2:

 

Vigil - please define "white"....then tell us why this designation is so important.

 

I have never called you a racist - but it seems to me with every post you are presenting yourself that way. I understand that you are attempting to do so in a positive way...my concerns and what I have attempted to point out is how very quickly such can turn negative...very much so...

 

I am not going to post apoligetically concerning the Jews (by Jews here I am refering to politically active [nationalist] contingent. But as far as Jews being successful in finance and what have you - more power to them. Historically - as you know Jews were prohibited from many trades and positions and have managed to overcome these restrictions and severe biases against them (because of them being "different" and insular - much like you want for the Armenians...) - so good for them. That they take care of and look out for themselves also seems to me what you are preaching for Armenains. So instead of you having animosity towards Jews you should admire them - and it seems you do as you are exhorting Armenians to be like them...

 

These theories that Rome fell and that civilizations crumble due to racial mixing is just bunk. And past models really won't apply now anyway. At no time before in history have we ever experienced a situation where the dominant culture (of the West is so pervasive and powerful and without alternative/external threat (of significance). Certainly there are fragilities and the societies of the West could (and likely will) fall (eventually)...but not for any reason having to do with racial factors - we have other problems/issues that are far more threatening. And we are in a new era - global integration - and unless everything falls apart and we slip back technology wise and such - this is likely not to change. We are the cusp of great changes and socity, civilization and people are changing - cultures are merging/melding and we are moving towards a perhaps unknown future. Our job - as citizens of the world is to manage this in a positive way and avoid the nasty pitfalls that could lead to tyranny and abuse. We also must do what we can to minimize our (negative) environmental impact. We have tremendous oppurtunity to move foreward into an era where there is greater comfort, prosperity and happiness for everyone...but we should not be tolerant of leaving masses of people behind and in misery - we must come up with a way where all are able to live decent, productive and fruitful lives. We have a long ways to go...a great many challenges - but the oppurtunities for sucess are there. And all cultures will change and adapt to the new realities - and hopefully those like us - who are small - can maintain some identity and culture - but things will never go back to as they were - culture is based on the means of production and the technology employed - traditional agricultural village life will likely persist for some time - but will never again be the dominant determinate of the culture.

 

And have I been "on your case" Vigil? I think its the opposite - you have been imposing and repeating your "message" to us over and over....OK - we understand your point...but because we either believe some things differently - or are skeptical that your "solution" is practical/will work - et cetc - how is it that we are on your case? OK - perhaps you are sensitive that we are opposed to racism...but why are you defensive about such...if you are not racist? etc

[Vigil]

I do not want to derail the thread, but is the above the final reply to my point of view? My next post will be my last one on this issue, so, please make sure your stance is formulated well. Edited July 19, 2004 by Vigil

[Stormig]

I laugh at anyone who calls Turks European.