ED Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 I was just thinking and its a good ( I think ) topic for further discussion, sort of a round table, all opinions are welcome and I believe we can as a nation gain from this experience just a little bit So, with that in mind I like to ask you! why is it we have hard time listening to one another, we have one common cause yet so many contradictory and bias views, I believe sincerely most here or around the world wish good for there nation, Armenia, the cause, well being, prosperity, and many issues involved. The discussion I want everyone here to get involved is what does prevent us from understanding one another, and what would it take, what is it we want to see change, and where do you see changes should apply, I realize its a broad topic for discussion, feel free to add or saddest additional thoughts which can be helpful clarify the topic, but mostly your opinions I like to hear. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 We have rejected our faith and our traditions, thus rejecting our roots and common heritage, and now that we err, isolated, in the labyrinths of "modernity" (or rather absurdity), we pathetically wonder, how is it that we are not able to commune anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 My two cents - it has nothing to do with the past but the way people will not respect other human beings, not even just "each other"... No need to talk about "love" and "national will" - all relationships are based on some form of gain, some interest, what have you, granted, unless it's fighting together for survival during war. It is respect that draws the boundaries of abuse (an example of which can be pushing one's biases in others' faces). I don't think there is any nation which would be sustainably successful without the ability of at least some of its nationals to be able to clasp their big mouths for two seconds, roll in their heads what they were going to say twice, no, three times, so that to be able to listen vs. hear, and actually respect opinions (repeat, opinions - not garbage, which shouldn't have come out in the first place with lip-clasping and re-consideration). I don't know what it would take - implement an office setting, train people in total quality management, etc. It can't be about what you do with your past, at least not in this scope - it isn't about the past anywhere, not in any nation, not in any diaspora. It is about how you continually evolve (if you do) and keep up with the times, and that means respect - you can't treat people the way you'd like to anymore if you have a name or money. OK, I know, some people are going to cringe, but one can really learn from the Jews - I can't claim to know this for sure, but the reason why you can have so many factions - intellectual, religious, political, whatever - within the Jewish community MUST BE because they know that for this entity to prosper they have to respect all and, sardonic, preserve their masses even if the orthodox despise the liberals, the Zionists detest the non-Zionists, etc. If, in keeping with the times, Jewish girls don't want to preserve their virginity before marriage, don't do or say anything about it even if it makes you heave. I think this is the most relevant example I can give for this forum. I haven't visited any Jewish forums but I sincerely doubt you'd have several threads each of several hundred posts about how women and especially women mustn't have sex before marriage or how they shouldn't marry "odars," on and on and on and on. I think it is first the respect issue that has to be settled before anyone can try to sit down and use everyone's resources to improve country and diaspora, what have you. It's got to be the same everywhere. Respectfulness, in my eyes, is the only condition under which large-scale, viable bonds between individuals can be fostered. I have no issues discussing or negotiating things with people as long as they don't interrupt me, or follow up with sentences or questions that clearly demonstrate they haven't tried to understand me or even tried to listen to me, or just disregard and dismiss altogether and sing their own song, like it is for their fun, sometimes even obscenely BS like I am pulling things out of my arse. (And I can, but won't, give examples for each of these items from real life or from the forum.) How can I be expected to work together with these people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Stormig, you say "respect" is the answer. But we only respect what we find respectable. Respect cannot be imposed, it may only be deserved. What defines us as armenians? What do we have in common if not our past and history? I am not arguing that we should nostalgically cling to our past while disregarding our present and future. But what kind of future can we build if we dismiss our past that is our common bond? A man without tradition is a tree without roots. A people without tradition is a forest of unrooted trees. How long might it last? And when I say tradition, I mean far more than customs, rites... I am refering to the mental/spiritual dimension (of which customs are mere artifacts). I sincerely doubt you'd have several threads each of several hundred posts about how women and especially women mustn't have sex before marriage or how they shouldn't marry "odars," This is mostly irrelevant but from what I have seen, you could not be further from the truth. Why does it bother you so much? Aren't you a virgin as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 I said nothing about dismissing the past or tradition. But "practicing" the past is optional. Moreover, respect should be default in all societies - by a minimum. By respect I don't mean bowing and kissing feet - even how that would be deserved I don't want to know. But I always see a lot of disrespect toward this or that kind of person, this or that kind of group, etc. At best that is a pathetic preoccupation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Even if we have respect for one another, if we hold diametrically opposed conceptions, this won't get us far. We will politely dismiss each other's point of view instead of insulting one another, but in the end, the result will be the same except the degree of frustration will be higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 BTW, I am very serious about the kinds of threads you read everywhere. How would it make you ppl feel if you checked out Turkish boards and didn't easily find references to virginity, marrying foreigners, etc.? OK, likely to find other things, or maybe even indeed these kinds of things discussed, but they're Turks, right? And I'm sure these kinds of "topics" aren't the sort to make Turks (or anyone else for that matter) envious of what's being discussed on the threads in question. Personally it reminds me how sad and backward these "topics" are... Perhaps somewhere down the line someone can come up with an explanation as to why all the Turkish organisations in the U.S. (under the umbrella of the ATAA) can't put up half the dissent and what-not you get to observe in one CAIA. It comes back to respect - whether you feel it or you have to acknowledge it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Even if we have respect for one another, if we hold diametrically opposed conceptions, this won't get us far. We will politely dismiss each other's point of view instead of insulting one another, but in the end, the result will be the same except the degree of frustration will be higher. That is an unproductive attitude. There is a difference between trying to work out something with a group vs. trying to convince everyone of your view. There may be times when it will be impossible to accept anything other than your point of view for whatever reason, but, for the greater part, in a group, the healthier practice would be to defend your point to the end but to eventually submit your assistance and resources to the decision taken. I am not trying to bring nonviolent resistance into the picture when showing Ghandi as an example to this - I read it in a biography - that this was his approach and it worked out well for him in the end, apparently. Opting out and getting frustrated is the easy way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 It comes back to respect - whether you feel it or you have to acknowledge it. Thanks for clarifying. Do you agree with the following definition: Lack of respect: Discussing "topics" that may personally annoy Stormig or that she may find irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anon. Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Yes, we may have history and heritage in common, but so what? One individual and his or her thinking cant purely represent a whole population or nation. We know this, but when people start acting this way, either in this forum or in our every day lives, we get offended or upset or all worked up. Respect, I think is something that we lack, among other things. We cant understand eachother because alot of times we are self righteous in our thinking. We WANT everyone to think the same as we do. We want to point fingers and say I'm right and you're wrong, or you and all other Armenians are doomed because you have this or that opinion It's exemplified in this forum all the time. It's hard to understand another when you dont fully know they're background, what they have experienced in life, in what kind of environment they grew up . All of things things are attributed to what makes an individual who they are. That's the problem here. (I am Assuming) that everyone does not know everyone else personally here. We can talk about our opinions here, and justify them with examples, but then what gives another person the right to JUDGE what the indiv. is saying. THat's the problem. We are so quick to JUDGE. You cannot understand a person, or come to a concensus about anything when all you do is judge. You have to be able to consider others thoughts and ideals, even if you think they are wrong, or dont agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Nope, I do not agree. To discuss virginity is not disrespectful (although after a point I find it rather sad, very sad) given the discussion doesn't steer in personal directions, but to call non-virgins this or that or couples who live together and have children as thieves and drug-dealers or atheists this or that is. This is what I am trying to underline. These are all relationships between people - you go to your sweetheart and you say, "You are always making things difficult," don't be surprised it's not met warmly. Approach with an "I feel we have to work things out together" - even if the culprit is the other side - and it makes all the difference in the world. Saying atheists are dim, dumb, disoriented, or that non-virgins have lost oh so much from their body and are worthless, etc., when these are none of your business - or that all these people go to hell instead of, for example, saying you wish them better - betrays so much malice. Malice concerning things that aren't your business shouldn't even be there in the first place! You have nothing to gain from it except flaunt your blah-blah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 You have to be able to consider others thoughts and ideals, even if you think they are wrong, or dont agree. The problem is we do not share the same thoughts and ideals, that we actually hold completely diverging worldviews. And we are artificially trying to unite for the sake of being united without realizing that unity proceeds from shared faith and ideals and not the contrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 The problem is we do not share the same thoughts and ideals, that we actually hold completely diverging worldviews. And we are artificially trying to unite for the sake of being united without realizing that unity proceeds from shared faith and ideals and not the contrary. Why should that matter? Isn't the issue of preservation of motherland, etc., common to all those that profess they do care? Besides, how then the Jewish success? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 What motherland are we talking about? Is Armenia an abstract state or territory or, before all, a culture and a history? does "preservation" simply mean preserving its territorial boundaries (which of course is critical) or defending its spiritual integrity? PS: Jews is far too complex a subject to be discussed here but their example would rather support my claims than yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anon. Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Well of coarse we do. We can talk about unity through shared faith and ideals all we want. The point is we are individuals, in whatever it is we may be working towards, or what causes we support. I dont live in Armenia, nor have I ever been there. I dont know what kind of ideals individuals there have, how do you know what kind of faith they have, and in what? I sure dont. I dont know what your ideals are, or what kind of faith you have an it what. Even if I did know, how do you expect for these things to coincide with eachother, between the two of us. Maybe they wouldn't. Maybe they cant. Yes, we are both Armenian, but we are individuals. Given we want the same things for the unity of our nation, outside of Armenian or within, how could you and I , along with ALL other Armenians share the same faith and ideals? We are not in Utopia ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted June 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 The problem is we do not share the same thoughts and ideals, that we actually hold completely diverging worldviews. And we are artificially trying to unite for the sake of being united without realizing that unity proceeds from shared faith and ideals and not the contrary. axel, this is precisely the reason why I opened up this thread, we all know deep deference’s we have as a nation, I like you to start talking if you may about the causes of it so we can understand roots of the "evil" and maybe by realizing WHY we can understand that, agree on that and possibly understand each other, I must say this thread is not exclusively reserved for Armenians, any person of any Nationality can participate, but main objective I like to see remain is of what I said in my first post. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anon. Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Axel, forgive me... but what do you mean when you say 'defending Armenia's spiritual integrity' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 anon. , the utopia rather resides in the idea we could be united without having anything in common except a -ian ending name. Edward, the reasons are I guess multiple. Obviously the Genocide and the break of cultural transmission it brought is one of the major causes along with eastern Armenia following a separate course after the triumph of bolshevism and western armenians not being strong enough (spiritually, culturally, socially...) to resist assimilation in an overall culture-dissolving environment dominated by individualism in the West. If our differences are greater than what we have in common, then it must be that we identify more with other cultures than with our own PS: sorry, I have to go. I don't have much to add to this topic anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anon. Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 You cant go under the assumption that All Armenians are the same, have the same plights, the same will, where ever they reside in the world. One cannot assume that every person in a diaspora is living and breathing with the goal in life to keep their people united, in or outside of their nation state. What we have in common is our past, our heritage, our culture. Do we share in common our daily lives, our plights, our luxuries, or interests etc.. Absolutely not. Most Armenians I know are not living with the purpose of keeping their people united and in harmony, or what have you. THey may have these great ideals in mind, but is that the question they face themselves with everyday... No, its not. Okay, there was a break of cultural transmission that the Genocide brought. But I mean look at the communities we have built around the world, the churches, the clubs, to which people always congregate for a variety of reasons. We are not that bad off. We are not an extinct nation, and it bothers me when people (Armenians) act as if we are, or are heading that way. We're not, clearly. If Armenians are afraid of assimilation, then let them go back to Armenia, to defend the Armenian cause. Wouldnt that be a great solution??? Assimilation has not only happened to Armenians nor will it stop with Armenians. Its a social phenomenon, and its inevitable, in some way , shape or form. And we as Armenians are deathly afraid of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 some nice posts anon...particularly this last one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Ed I believe if we only read Ara Baliozian and our Diaspora newspapers, the impression is that we are divided, subdivided and further divided even more but actually it is more of a universal behavior in humanity even among Jews there are enormous divisions religious, cultural and secular. We are motivated by needs and wants and idealistic platitudes don’t go far. I think we already do have an Armenian Diaspora business association and I like to see this project bare fruit. I am all for investments in Armenia. There is nothing wrong with greed if those businesses create jobs and uplifts the social conditions and all honesty when I am broke which happens on monthly bases I can only think about my bills, food and my family and helping Armenia in this situation is not even on the radar screen. I care less about unity since intuitively humans always put their interests first but let those interests prosper and in turn change the region for better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 I think a good argument could be made that it is against Armenian nature to be united. So if this is true - are those calling for Armenians to unite actually calling for Armenians to change who we are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anon. Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Thoth, why do you believe that it's a good argument Just curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Thoth, why do you believe that it's a good argument Just curious Historically Armenains have been people who have shown more care to the family unit and their immediate surroundings and less abotu uniting to form a nation (like to go off and conqor others etc). And even at the micro level - most Armenains are not so concerned with the larger political issues (outside of the Genocide issue - which is in truth a very personal thing). Its obvious that we are not a people who naturally unite and subvert ourselves to the wills of others - we are strong willed and very independent. OK (agree/disagree?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anon. Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 I do agree and disagree with what you're saying. There are so many nationalistic Armenians, (in the diaspora) who are not only concerned about preserving our culture, but who are also strong in the political arena, regarding Armenia. But I do agree that historically Armenians have been most concerened with the familiy unit and their surrounding. Most of my family have lived their life this way. A few in my family are Armenian - live or die, and their outlook on life is a alot more intense regarding our national identity and culture. It's hard for me to imagine how they will raise their kids when they get to the age where they begin to want to develop their own character, ideas etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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