DominO123 Posted June 29, 2004 Report Share Posted June 29, 2004 (edited) Thoth, it is amazing how you can shout opinions like this without regards to the fact that you destroy other claims of yours. Let forget that for now. “Atheism has no shared doctrines or such - beyond rejection of all the other stuff...there is not necessarily any commonality of experience nor any cohesive grouping among Atheists...” How can you say such nonsense. The same applies to theism, there are many religions classed as theistic, many does not share anything with others. And yes! Atheism does start from a shared experience. Shared experience has to do with observations, your environment, the majority of things in our lives are shared experiences. "Religion originates in an attempt to represent and order beliefs, feelings, imaginings and actions that arise in response to direct experience of the sacred and the spiritual." You manipulate as usual, reread the quote I provided which is an “or” rather than an “and.” I see that again you only uses things that support your point, even if after this quote the author clarify, and in the clarification we see that it is an “or.” "The sacred is a mysterious manifestation of power and presence that is experienced as both primordial and transformative, inspiring awe and rapt attention. " Since it was an « or, » therefore this is irrelevant. "It is also important to point out the mysteriousness of what is experienced. Without mystery there is no incentive for further exploration, and hence no religion." Even the most hardline atheist will not place a “nada” here. Reread this quote one more time, it is not talking about if “mysteries” is part of the religion, but rather the causes of the exploration. This is not proper to religion, but as well as science and philosophy. It is this exploration that leads to atheism, and if there was such an exploration, obviously there was mystery. "The founding experience and the initial response to it (for instance, the shaman's response to experience of an hallucinogenic mushroom, the Apostles' feeling of the inrush of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the Buddha's enlightenment, etc.), as initially articulated and ordered, give rise to an ongoing process of elaboration and meaning-creation that occurs as the foundational events are embedded in a system (for instance, the tradition of shamanic healing practices, the codified creeds and ceremonies of the Christian churches, the monastic culture of Buddhism, etc.)." Meaning creating is not proper to religion, but as well science and philosophy, atheism can not have existed without the process of meaning creating. “nope...just the opposite...obviously....try again...(and how convienient...)” As expected, just say it so, without feeling the need to support what you claim. Now returning to my first comment… Explain us all, why while atheism is not a religion, gay union is marriage. Edited June 29, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 There is no end, is there Somehow everything turns into religious debate at the end. But I guess just as I'd rather discuss multiverse theories than gay marriage, similarly I'd rather discuss religion (or lack of religion) than gay marriage. Domino, really, it's a puzzle for me why you think atheism is a religion. I have to do some research to figure out why you think so and whether other people seem to think so. As of now I think you're the only one who thinks this. Are there other forum members who think atheism is a religion? Don't shy away people. I want to know what you think. (As of gay marriage... eh, I've tried my best to defend my position in this matter for as much as my time permits.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Are there other forum members who think atheism is a religion? Don't shy away people. I want to know what you think. I wanted to say something but, alas, I am too shy for that I would rather shy away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Are there other forum members who think atheism is a religion? Don't shy away people. I want to know what you think. Alright I'll bite To me, religion is a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by. Note that I am quoting this from the dictionary definition (one of the definitions of religion). Having said that, since atheists strongly believe there is no god or diety, then their belief system does qualify as "religion" in my views. In my opinion, in order for someone not to have a religion in this case, that person has to be unsure. This is assuming of course the existence of God or Gods cannot be proven. Needless to say, I do live by that assumption. Now is that assumption a "strongly-held belief" in and of itself, and therefore a religion? Only if you want to argue more about this! But at this point, it's more of a game of semantics rather than concepts. I find the gay marriage debate interesting not because of terminology, but because I consider the concept of the union between homosexuals to be different than the concept of marriage between heteros and thus, support the idea of having different terms and different treatments of them by society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 (edited) In my opinion, in order for someone not to have a religion in this case, that person has to be unsure. Or that you believe everything... and since every beliefs will annihiliate eachothers you eend up with no belief at all. Edited June 30, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Thoth, it is amazing how you can shout opinions like this without regards to the fact that you destroy other claims of yours. I am glad i am not the only one seeing how many times he has lied.. LOl.. or or.. lets call it "claiming opposing viewpoints"... still it is apalling to see people on here think you are credible for anything you say... but.. keep going thot.. you are adding to my amazement of stupid people ... shall i thank you for that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Are there other forum members who think atheism is a religion? Don't shy away people. I want to know what you think. Anoushik.. i started not to think of athiesm as a religion.. or as "not a religion" point being.. it makes no difference to any other arguement except the one that says "religions sucks" and the guy who beleive atheism is a religion says "haha your a hypocrit, you say religion sucks and is stupid but you are also ina religion".. see its rediculously childish.. makes not difference.. ... thats my view ... is that not shy enough for you .. hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Thank you, thank you, everyone See, it's not so bad to post in this ridiculously ongoing thread about gay marriage I wanted to say something but, alas, I am too shy for that I would rather shy away Aww, Sasun, don't be shy ... just say what you wanted to say... We love you no matter what you say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 A religion does not require the belief in a god, it requires a belief regarding the spiritual, gods etc... Agnosticism can not be a religion, because it is centered on dought and not belief, while atheism is centered on a belief... Furthermore, atheism is very well established in our society, they have organisms, institutes etc... they publish their magazines, their journals etc... much like any other religious organisms. Domino, atheists don't say "we believe there is no God" but we say "there is no God". There is a big difference and maybe if we were to say the first statement atheism could be regarded as religion. Your claim that atheism is centered on a belief therefore it should be a religion is very broad. If this is true then we can apply this to everything from politics to the arts to education. Let's go ahead and call capitalism and socialism religions. Why not? They are both based on a belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Let's go ahead and call capitalism and socialism religions. Why not? They are both based on a belief. If it determines your way of life without being backed through reason, then so be it. If someone comes and tells me don't eat carbs cause they are bad for you, I consider that religion. Until he can show enough scientific evidence to make it a scientifically supported statement. Beliefs are either based on some fundamentally sound way of thinking (logic, science, or experience), or on religion (faith, hocus pocus, magic, supernatural, dieties, superstition, myths, etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 As a side note we shouldn't forget that either type of belief can be wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Domino, atheists don't say "we believe there is no God" but we say "there is no God". There is a big difference ... there may be a big difference in general context ("there is..", "... believe there is..."), however, i don't see a difference in this situation, because the inexistance of the god has not been proven. thus, "there is no god" statement is merely based on a belief. which, in turn brings us back to the other statement, "i believe there in no god". and maybe if we were to say the first statement atheism could be regarded as religion. does that mean that if i say "there is god", it makes me a non-believer because i don't believe, but know, or at least claim to know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Beliefs are either based on some fundamentally sound way of thinking (logic, science, or experience), or on religion (faith, hocus pocus, magic, supernatural, dieties, superstition, myths, etc). Atheism is not a religion - as you cannot bin atheists together and say this is what atheists live by...other then they reject all the various god concepts poposed by others. This says nothign about what they do believe in and I would surmise that the variation is enourmous. Additionally my rejection of religion is based on "logic, science, or experience" and not "faith, hocus pocus, magic, supernatural, dieties, superstition, myths" ...and I have further augmented my contention of atheism not being a religion by varous definitions of what religion is. I find it funny that Domino rejects the idea of gay marraige by hangiong on to a very specific and narrowly defined definition of marraige (that I certainly do not at all share) but then makes this broad brush definition of religiopn to basically include about everything - can't have it both ways dude - talk about inconsistencey. And Gevo - face it - you know very little - certainly not enough to impune anything I might say about these matters - and I certainly wouldn't rely on someone who professes the exsistence of multiple universes where all things are true and who claims his own perfect religion etc etc for a sense of what is factual & knowable. And your claims that I have lied - well they are just laughable - its obvious you have very little capacity to tell lie from truth and insight from bullshit. So if you have anything to say please (at least attempt to) back it up - instead of just crying "liar liar pants on fire" - or justifying thigs based on "faith based reasoning" an oxymoron if there ever was one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 there may be a big difference in general context ("there is..", "... believe there is..."), however, i don't see a difference in this situation, because the inexistance of the god has not been proven. thus, "there is no god" statement is merely based on a belief. which, in turn brings us back to the other statement, "i believe there in no god". does that mean that if i say "there is god", it makes me a non-believer because i don't believe, but know, or at least claim to know? It is not up to the atheist to disprove every possible god complex that other human can dream up - I mean come now...and Christianity is no more special or of special status then any other made up (man derived etc) religion in this regard. So it is not up to the atheist to disprove. The "proof' of belief rest with the believer. And if (non belief in god/gods) it is/are considered a belief - it is in the same way one says he does not believe in the tooth fairy, santa clause, the loch ness monster and such - because insufficient proof has been provided to make such a belief legitimate (and all the contradictions, illogic and errancy and such as has been shown). Thus non-belief is not based on faith but on reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 As a side note we shouldn't forget that either type of belief can be wrong! Perfect! After what Harut said, I don't need to add anything about the belief of the "non-god." Anoushik, you make it sound like I am the first ever telling that atheism is a religion. But this is not so, agnostics consider atheism as a religion. Only atheists and the majority of theists don't consider it to be a religion. Atheists don't because they consider their belief just more than a belief and so special, and since they don't like any other religions they have a problem to put it in the same bag as other religions. On the other hand, the majority of theists consider atheism as evil, so they don't want it to be considered as a religion. My definition of religion is about what Sip say. I have a philosophy that says, since you believe in something this possibility exist, because it is the results of interactions that do exist(in the brain). If each such belief exist, there is no reason to reject one against the other, they are probabilities. In the world of multiple universe, where all the possibilities exists... thosefor, no one is really wrong. This is all about the problem of words. Words are meant to be determistic to discribe underterministic things, this is why we always have a problem with definitions and the way they can be interprated. This is as well why philosophy exist. In a good philosophy text, before presenting the arguments you will find the definition of the word treated, and you just have to interprate the definition of a word or give more importance to one ellement of the definition than another, and you could end up rejecting an entire theses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 It is not up to the atheist to disprove every possible god complex that other human can dream up - I mean come now...and Christianity is no more special or of special status then any other made up (man derived etc) religion in this regard. So it is not up to the atheist to disprove. The "proof' of belief rest with the believer. And if (non belief in god/gods) it is/are considered a belief - it is in the same way one says he does not believe in the tooth fairy, santa clause, the loch ness monster and such - because insufficient proof has been provided to make such a belief legitimate (and all the contradictions, illogic and errancy and such as has been shown). Thus non-belief is not based on faith but on reason. You are repeating the same argument that I have explained countless of times why it does not make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 (edited) And Gevo - face it - you know very little - certainly not enough to impune anything I might say about these matters - And if i may ask.. what the hell are you reffering to.. ??? if there was anyone who doesnt know anything about any of these matters.. its you.. that is why you feel it necessary to quote a million others and post more links than anyone else as well.. Youcopy paste more than anyoe, ayou probably sit there and read a million worthless websites to gain some "knowledge" about whatever it is you are trying to sound smart about.. THOT,, tell me.. how do u feel after lieing so much on an internet based forum where you know no-one knows you? do u get like some emotional high from it>? or maybe something else? tell me so i know.. cause this is just rediculous... Edited July 1, 2004 by gevo27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Please Gevo, just lets stick to discussing and no personal attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 My definition of religion is about what Sip say. I have a philosophy that says, since you believe in something this possibility exist, because it is the results of interactions that do exist(in the brain). If each such belief exist, there is no reason to reject one against the other, they are probabilities. In the world of multiple universe, where all the possibilities exists... thosefor, no one is really wrong. This is all about the problem of words. Words are meant to be determistic to discribe underterministic things, this is why we always have a problem with definitions and the way they can be interprated. This is as well why philosophy exist. In a good philosophy text, before presenting the arguments you will find the definition of the word treated, and you just have to interprate the definition of a word or give more importance to one ellement of the definition than another, and you could end up rejecting an entire theses. But Domino, a belief surely doesn't equal to religion. I have many beliefs: as a Classical musician I strongly believe (like the rest of the musicians) that the study of music in young age is very important and like the rest of the musicians I'll have to fight to introduce well established music education back into the schools. I'm a music student and I'm a teacher and my days are spent either practicing the piano, studying music scores, or listening to music (aside from posting in Hyeforum). There's even an expression: practicing religiously. So, I really didn't know that this was a religion. But like you say, if a religion is something centered on belief and it's a way of life then my "musicianism" is a religion. Um... what else... Ah yes, of course, I have other religions. Being an Armenian and strongly believing that I have to live my life as an Armenian. I don't date and have never dated non-Armenians. If the last guy available for me happened to be "rabiz" I'd still marry him. My kids have to be Armenian and have to speak Armenian. (Of course it wouldn't hurt if my Armenian husband held a position as the principal cellist in the LA Phil ) But what is this religion called? Armenianism? I'm a liberal democrat. Another religion. And of course, together with atheism I belong in four religions! I didn't even know that I was religious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Atheism is not a religion - as you cannot bin atheists together and say this is what atheists live by...other then they reject all the various god concepts poposed by others. This says nothign about what they do believe in and I would surmise that the variation is enourmous. Additionally my rejection of religion is based on "logic, science, or experience" and not "faith, hocus pocus, magic, supernatural, dieties, superstition, myths" ...and I have further augmented my contention of atheism not being a religion by varous definitions of what religion is. I find it funny that Domino rejects the idea of gay marraige by hangiong on to a very specific and narrowly defined definition of marraige (that I certainly do not at all share) but then makes this broad brush definition of religiopn to basically include about everything - can't have it both ways dude - talk about inconsistencey. Very true, Thoth. I completely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 (edited) I agree, mere belief is not religion. As for atheists, all are different. Whether or not it is religion depends on the person. I think for most atheists atheism is not religion although it could be a strong belief or a casual belief, whatever... But there are some atheists who never stop talking about/against God, bashing God, bashing religions, publishing papers with such content, gathering together to bash God and religion, etc... these people are practicing their religion and are quite devout As for me, I think atheism is ignorance, as well as agnosticism. But agnostics are honest to tell that they don't know... And Domino, again I am sure that you don't know what religion is to call every belief a religion. I invite you back to the religion section to discuss repeatability and predictability so I can kick your butt Edited June 30, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Gevo - you realy have no clue do you... FYI I have a degree in Anthropology with a minor in religous studies. My advisor - who was head of the religious studies department - and a Yale divinity school graduate - who has since moved on to become dean of a catholic university - pushed me incredibly hard to go to divinity school (even knowing that I was an atheist!)...I have both studied most major religions (as well as many tribal types etc) and read widely concerning comaprative religion, myths and what not...I have ben doing this since well before you were born. Additionally when I paste exerpts form web sites i do so with a clear purpose - not to replace any thoughts i might have but to supplement and make my points - its certainly not done without understanding. And BTW - some of my best friends are very devout Christians - who lead Bible studies and such...and I also rarely pass up an oportunity to discuss religion and like ideas with priests, rabbis and otherwise interested folks whenever I can. The subject facsinates me...even if at the same time I also feel that i am completely wasting my time (that I consider the discussions mostly irrelevant concerning actual reality...though worthwhile to get cultural insites and understand ideas, thinking of folks and the like)....but mostly just irrelevant and worthless when it comes to discussing anything with you... (and I would not at all say that concerning discussions with Domino or even Sasun...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 But Domino, a belief surely doesn't equal to religion. I have many beliefs: as a Classical musician I strongly believe (like the rest of the musicians) that the study of music in young age is very important and like the rest of the musicians I'll have to fight to introduce well established music education back into the schools. I'm a music student and I'm a teacher and my days are spent either practicing the piano, studying music scores, or listening to music (aside from posting in Hyeforum). There's even an expression: practicing religiously. So, I really didn't know that this was a religion. But like you say, if a religion is something centered on belief and it's a way of life then my "musicianism" is a religion. Um... what else... Ah yes, of course, I have other religions. Being an Armenian and strongly believing that I have to live my life as an Armenian. I don't date and have never dated non-Armenians. If the last guy available for me happened to be "rabiz" I'd still marry him. My kids have to be Armenian and have to speak Armenian. (Of course it wouldn't hurt if my Armenian husband held a position as the principal cellist in the LA Phil ) But what is this religion called? Armenianism? I'm a liberal democrat. Another religion. And of course, together with atheism I belong in four religions! I didn't even know that I was religious! OK! A little clarification, every belief in itself is not a religion, it is a religion only when it concerns fundamental questions. And yes! A religion based on music can exist. If you were to consider music as something spritual and you live by it as THE belief... then it is a religion. Just mind you here that pantheism is considered as a religion even from the pantheist organisations themselves... I think pantheism is the golden stardard to make understand people what is a religion and what is not. Just run a search on google about it and read what it is and you will understand what I mean. Havn't I advised you that theists do not consider atheism as a religion?(Sasun ) Sasun, agnosticism beside the probabilistic vision of reality, is the only non-arrogant way to go. Is it ignorance? Yes! It is, unlike the others, it is the admission of this ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 Gevo - you realy have no clue do you... FYI I have a degree in Anthropology with a minor in religous studies. My advisor - who was head of the religious studies department - and a Yale divinity school graduate - who has since moved on to become dean of a catholic university - pushed me incredibly hard to go to divinity school (even knowing that I was an atheist!)...I have both studied most major religions (as well as many tribal types etc) and read widely concerning comaprative religion, myths and what not...I have ben doing this since well before you were born. Additionally when I paste exerpts form web sites i do so with a clear purpose - not to replace any thoughts i might have but to supplement and make my points - its certainly not done without understanding. And BTW - some of my best friends are very devout Christians - who lead Bible studies and such...and I also rarely pass up an oportunity to discuss religion and like ideas with priests, rabbis and otherwise interested folks whenever I can. The subject facsinates me...even if at the same time I also feel that i am completely wasting my time (that I consider the discussions mostly irrelevant concerning actual reality...though worthwhile to get cultural insites and understand ideas, thinking of folks and the like)....but mostly just irrelevant and worthless when it comes to discussing anything with you... (and I would not at all say that concerning discussions with Domino or even Sasun...) I hope you dont think i would read this.... i have had enough of your lies.. I seriously hope others on here can see how contradictory every other thignyou say is.. which basically means your lyeing... anywho.. good life to you and your devout christian friends **which is the only think that cuaght my eye from your post** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 Sasun, agnosticism beside the probabilistic vision of reality, is the only non-arrogant way to go. Is it ignorance? Yes! It is, unlike the others, it is the admission of this ignorance. Arrogant or non-arrogant, ignorance is never the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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