White House Press Release

[gamavor]

NO, of course not. It was friendly and peaceful walk with one's immediate family, friends and neighbors in the Syrian desert combined with strict diet against obesity. Well, as a side effect some died, but this is just what caused pain in Turkey.

[MJ]

NO, of course not. It was friendly and peaceful walk with one's immediate family, friends and neighbors in the Syrian desert combined with strict diet against obesity. Well, as a side effect some died, but this is just what caused pain in Turkey.

Was 9/11 a genocide?

[gamavor]

Oh, no! It was a tragedy of much lower magnitude. The similarity of the two is only based on their incidental and accidental nature.

[DominO123]

The similarity of the two is only based on their incidental and accidental nature.

Silly you.

Edited April 25, 2004 by Fadix

[MJ]

Oh, no! It was a tragedy of much lower magnitude. The similarity of the two is only based on their incidental and accidental nature.

Does the qualification of Genocide depend on the magnitude?

 

And where is that threshold? 6 million, 1.5 million, 100,000 or 3,000?

[gamavor]

May be.... but I'm bold, strong, proud and tall as American, and proud and tall, because I'm tall and proud and free and bold.

[gamavor]

What numbers? The only numbers I’m interested in is Texas Lotto.

 

 

...and oil prices

[Sip]

Does the qualification of Genocide depend on the magnitude?

I think it is more a product of intent. 9/11 although in principle was against "Americans" (or so it seems), it was in fact not targetted towards a specific nationality, religious, or ethnic group. Unless one wants to classify it as genocide of the western ways of life?

[DominO123]

I think it is more a product of intent. 9/11 although in principle was against "Americans" (or so it seems), it was in fact not targetted towards a specific nationality, religious, or ethnic group. Unless one wants to classify it as genocide of the western ways of life?

Actualy, it could be defined as genocide if we use the UN convention. I prefer Lemkin and Pieter Drost definition as well as the restrictive concept. Because without those more restrictive definitions, we could qualify absolutly any such crimes as genocide.

Edited April 25, 2004 by Fadix

[DominO123]

What numbers? The only numbers I’m interested in is Texas Lotto.

 

 

...and oil prices

Nice try, but it was nothing close to Phokas masterpiece. Sorry.

[MJ]

May be.... but I'm bold, strong, proud and tall as American, and proud and tall, because I'm tall and proud and free and bold.

Since Armenians are not as proud and tall, as more than 300 years history of knocking the doors of others with an expectation of sympathy attests, why don't you lobby for the Armenian Parliament to pass a resolution to condemn the Genocide of Americans of 9/11. Ok, if it is too much for you, why don't you do it for the Assyrians or the Pontic Greeks?

 

Or else, why don't you demand that Iran recognizes the Armenian Genocide. They are not a Jewish state after all, and are a strategic friend of Armenia?

[gamavor]

Agreed! Phokas had much broader subject matter and I admit that he is GOOD. However, I only tried to defend MY GOVERNMENT and MY ALL BELOVED President for their latest polution in a form of Presssssssssssss Releaseeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[MJ]

Actualy, it could be defined as genocide if we use the UN convention. I prefer Lemkin and Peter Drost definition as well as the restrictive concept. Because without those more restrictive definitions, we could qualify absolutly any such crimes as genocide.

Isn't that exactly the point? Wouldn't almost anything qualify as genocide? It is like the infamous case of dragging a black guy chained at the back of a track in Texas.

 

For some, it was not good enough that the criminals were executed for the crime. They just wanted them to be executed for Hate Crimes. Hope my point would be properly understood.

[MJ]

I think it is more a product of intent. 9/11 although in principle was against "Americans" (or so it seems), it was in fact not targetted towards a specific nationality, religious, or ethnic group. Unless one wants to classify it as genocide of the western ways of life?

American is a nationality. Obviously not to be confused with ethnicity.

[MJ]

Now, I got dragged into this nonsense, again.

[gamavor]

Well, now we are talking MJ. Yes, I would love to lobby if I had the means for Assyrian and Pontic Greeks genocide in the Armenian parlament, although I think there were few declarations passed by the Parliament in Yerevan.

 

As to Iran, I think the Armenian community there is doing good job and I'm sure they will pass similar declaration or resolution before USA.

 

Now the most important question. Why we need to lobby in USA. Very simple. We don't need to. But if someone says that what happened to Armenians is tragic event I have the right to correct him.

 

By the way, if I enter someone's house without his permition it would be considered burglary. Why, when somebody else invades another counrty is called war on terrorism?

[MJ]

Well, now we are talking MJ. Yes, I would love to lobby if I had the means for Assyrian and Pontic Greeks genocide in the Armenian parlament, although I think there were few declarations passed by the Parliament in Yerevan.

 

As to Iran, I think the Armenian community there is doing good job and I'm sure they will pass similar declaration or resolution before USA.

 

Now the most important question. Why we need to lobby in USA. Very simple. We don't need to. But if someone says that what happened to Armenians is tragic event I have the right to correct him.

 

By the way, if I enter someone's house without his permition it would be considered burglary. Why, when somebody else invades another counrty is called war on terrorism?

As I said, I have no intention to get dragged into this nonsense.

 

For the sake of politeness, however, your arguments don't hold water - neither about Yerevan's declarations nor about Iran's intend.

 

And if the last question is your most important question, it tells me something that I have concluded long time ago. And what is next, are we going to discuss who the real chosen people are, next?

 

And when you start lobbying Yerevan, don't forget the Rwandans, Cambodians and about 100 other nations. Then, I will perhaps believe in your sincerity and recognize the validity of your ranting.

[America-Hye]

Bush putting salve on a raw wound in an election year, after he poured acid on the wound when the IRS rounded up Armenians in December 2002

[DominO123]

Martin, I know you are not interested to be dragged on this topic. But just one comment I would like to make. Rwandian, Cambodians genocides are not denied by a state. Why should Yerevan recognise something that is not denied? I would understand them recognising the genocide in Tibet, because of the similar policy of the Chinese government and its pressures to the world community, but what is the point of recognising something that is not denied?

[MJ]

Martin, I know you are not interested to be dragged on this topic. But just one comment I would like to make. Rwandian, Cambodians genocides are not denied by a state. Why should Yerevan recognise something that is not denied? I would understand them recognising the genocide in Tibet, because of the similar policy of the Chinese government and its pressures to the world community, but what is the point of recognising something that is not denied?

 

If it is about denial, then it belongs to the subject of history and historians have to sort it out.

 

If it is a political issue, then it belongs to the parliaments which have to come with political statements, refer the matter to their executive branch. and not merely mimic historians as your Parliament or the French one have done, for example, which is in a way a mockery of their own political systems.

 

If it is a legal issue, then it belongs to the courts, or belongs to no one, since there are no such courts with appropriate jurisdiction and the issue may be referred to the perpetrator country under the best-case scenario.

 

If it is a moral issue, than it belongs to everyone and it has properly been assessed by almost everyone.

 

So what is your issue?

 

EDIT: Some quick gramatical cleanup.

Edited April 26, 2004 by MJ

[gamavor]

The only importance I put with regard to USA is because they are the richest country in the World, they have (still) lots of political influence and USA is a home of the largest Armenian community outside Armenia.

 

While the first two points are inter-related the third has a significance only to those who claim that USA is their country and to get their government respect with proper address their martyrs.

[MJ]

I don't belong to the Arab culture and have no cult for martyrs.

[Vigil]

Since Armenians are not as proud and tall, as more than 300 years history of knocking the doors of others with an expectation of sympathy attests, why don't you lobby for the Armenian Parliament to pass a resolution to condemn the Genocide of Americans of 9/11. Ok, if it is too much for you, why don't you do it for the Assyrians or the Pontic Greeks?

 

Why is it that a Armenian Governer helped in the construction of the "Museum of Tolerance", but yet the only "holocaust" refered to is the Jewish? Why is it that Jews constintly stick in the faces of other ethnicities how terrible the holocaust was, but yet deny the struggles of other groups? DON'T YOU NOT THINK IT IS HYPOCRITICAL?

 

Why does the Jewish lobby constintly parade about how humane they are, but yet work with the international welfare case known as Turkey to deny any effort in recognizing the Armenian Genocide? CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW COME YOUR KIND DOES THIS BECAUSE WHEN EVER I ASK A JEW THEY SHRUG AND SAY "I DON'T KNOW"?

 

When is the LAST TIME a Armenian every lobbyed for the derecognition of the holocaust? DON'T YOU THINK THAT JEWS ARE THE AGGRESSORS HERE BECAUSE WE SURE AS HELL KNOW THAT ARMENIANS DO NOT CONFRONT JEWS WITH REGUARDS TO THEIR ISSUES?

 

Don't you think its weird that anything Armenian, which is motioned to pass in congress, is constintly confronted by the NAZI Jewish lobby?

 

Listen I would not care if this was about silly things like politics, but if Jews are going to get on their high horse and try to convince me that their struggle is important I sure as hell demand the same from them.

 

These few articles should explain to you my point.

 

http://www.ahiworld.com/022202.html

 

Or this Article

 

Jewish Lobby Pledges All-Out Support For Turkey and Azerbaijan in Congress

Harut Sassounian, California Courier On-Line, Aug. 5, 1999

 

Representatives of the Jewish lobby made a public pledge last week to do everything in their power to help enact pro-Azeri and pro-Turkish legislation and counter Armenian and Greek initiatives in the U.S. Congress. This chilling disclosure was printed in the July 28 and 29 issues of the Turkish Daily News. Reporter Yasemin Dobra-Manco wrote a lengthy two-part article after speaking with Barry Jacobs, the assistant director of the American Jewish Committee and Daniel Mariaschin, the director of the B'nai B'rith International Center for Public Policy.

 

While it does not come as a surprise to us that several Jewish-American groups have been lobbying in favour of Turkey and Azerbaijan for some time, the remarks made by Jacobs and Mariaschin come close to a declaration of lobbying war against the interests of Armenia and Karabagh.

 

Mariaschin told the Turkish Daily News that there are a number of Jewish-American groups that have "U.S-Turkish and Turkish- Israeli relations high on their agenda." The article lists the following organisations as playing "an increasingly active role in the advocacy of Turkish positions on many issues in the United States: The American Jewish Committee, the American Jewish Congress, the Anti-Defamation League, B'nai B'rith, the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organisations, and the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs."

 

Recently, both Jacobs and Mariaschin travelled to Istanbul and Ankara to explain "the unique role" their "organisations can play in the lobbying process in the United States." Even though Jacobs and a Jewish-American delegation also visited Armenia and Karabagh, in addition to Georgia, Azerbaijan and Turkey, we are not fooled by their show of seeming even-handedness. They had made a firm decision to support the Turks and the Azeris long before their "fact-finding" trip.

 

Mariaschin tries to explain to the Turkish readers why the lifting of the ban on aid to Azerbaijan "narrowly" failed in the Senate despite the support of "10 major American- Jewish organisations backing the effort."

 

He blames it on the "strong opposition by Armenian-American groups." But, fearing that the Turks may get disillusioned with a Jewish lobby that repeatedly fails to deliver the goods, Mariaschin promises that the "pressure to pass it will be continued during the next session of Congress."

 

Mariaschin discloses that "Jewish groups are now addressing an expanded agenda of issues," including support for the Baku- Ceyhan pipeline and Turkey's entry into the European Union. He expresses his regret that "the major humanitarian role Turkey played [in the Kosovo conflict] received little appreciation in the media."

 

In Part II of the article, Jacobs pledges that Jewish organisations will "take an active and vigorous role in being friends of Turkey in the United States.... We will champion to the best of our ability Turkish interests in the U.S. Congress. We will be Turkey's friends officially in Congress" and work to help get favourable legislation passed.

 

Trying to extract more from the Turks in return for Jewish support, Jacobs tells the newspaper that the Jewish groups' support for Turkey "has brought us into open conflict with Greek-Americans and Armenian-Americans. It has been welcomed by the Turkish government, but we have paid a price. The price has been that we have the Greek and Armenian- Americans very angry at us."

 

Jacobs gives as an example the criticism that Jewish groups received following the placement of an ad in the New York Times and the International Herald Tribune to congratulate the Turkish Republic's 75th anniversary. Jacobs admits that many Jews who are members of his group questioned, "why are we supporting Turkey which has a terrible human rights record?"

 

In trying to minimise the failure of the Jewish groups to lift the ban on aid to Azerbaijan, he calls Section 907 "largely symbolic." He then contradicts himself by disclosing that because of Section 907, Israel's Overseas Development Program cannot send Israeli technicians to Azerbaijan, ,since the Program receives funds from the U.S. government.

 

Jacobs states that "it is unfair to single out Azerbaijan, a pro-western and pro-NATO country that has diplomatic relations with Israel." Acting as a mouthpiece for Baku, Jacobs says that Armenian forces with the backing of Russia, occupy 20 percent of Azerbaijani territory and have created 1 million in internally displaced persons. Therefore, he explained, the organised American-Jewish community has come to the conclusion that it is wrong to further victimise Azerbaijan."

 

Ignoring the fact that Turkey has hired the best U.S. lobbying firms that money can buy, Jacobs says that the Turkish lobby in the United States is "very small, unorganised and almost non-existent, while Turks in general failed to understand the modern lobbying process." His implied message is: Ignorant and badly organised Turks desperately need Jewish help." Jacobs also conveniently fails to mention that the entire U.S. government, including the White House, the State and Defence departments, has acted as a giant Turkish lobby for the past 50 years.

 

Speaking as if he were a Turkish agent, Jacobs makes the following shameless declaration: "We want to work with your Embassy in Washington, the Turkish-American community and Turkey's many friends and win our battles on Capitol Hill. We want the American people and our leaders to understand what Turkey and its citizens have accomplished. We want our media to accurately reflect Turkey's importance and achievements. We don't want those who are not friends of Turkey to have the means to use human rights or other issues against your interests."

 

Up until now, Armenians have treated these Jewish groups with kid gloves, hoping for an eventual reconciliation with them. After these strident remarks, it is clear that they have foreclosed any possibility of friendly relations with the Armenian community. There is no doubt in my mind that these Jewish groups, having gotten their marching orders from Israel, have made a firm and final decision to side with the tyrants of Turkey and the barbarians of Baku against the defenceless Armenians struggling for their survival.

 

To counter the combined threat from Turkey, Israel and Azerbaijan, Armenians will have no choice but to form an alliance with Palestinians, Kurds, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, Serbs, Greeks and Greek-Cypriots.

 

As long as the Jewish lobby plays these games, I as Armenian, will always call in to question their motives in trying to seem like they give a dam when in fact it is blatently obvious that all they want is more pity and money.

 

What is sad is that Turkey bent Israel over last year as well by not supporting the coalition because if I am not mistaken Saddom was also one of the many enemies of Israel.

 

As far as 911 being deemed a genocide, which any person would know is not the case, is inconsistent. The term genocide was coined by examining the systematic extermination of the Armenians, not the Jews, and any time ONE life is taken in this manner it is a Genocide.

 

Oh yeah one more thing in 1994 when "Schindlers List" was being over exposed help less Rwandens were being exterminated, so keep that in mind.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[DominO123]

I would say, all of the above. It is about denial, it is a legal issue and a moral one.

 

The only reason I see why it should be voted in parlements is to isolate Turkeys position. If it was to not be denied, I could care less if it is recognised, because it would be not denied in the first place. So recognition supposes that you were not recognising it in the first place.

 

EDITED: All of the above reffers to your post Martin, not the other ones following it.

Edited April 26, 2004 by Fadix

[MJ]

Fine. I already spoke more on the subject than I enjoy. This would be the end of it for me. Edited April 26, 2004 by MJ