SevShoon Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 THE PERFECTION-vs.-CREATION ARGUMENT 1.) If God exists, then he is perfect.. 2.) If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe. 3.) A perfect being can have no needs or wants. 4.) If any being created the universe, then he must have had some need or want. 5.) Therefore, it is impossible for a perfect being to be the creator of the universe (from 3 and 4). 6.) Hence, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5). PERFECTION/CREATION INCOHERENCE ARGUMENT 1.) God, by definition, is a perfect being. 2.) God, by definition, deliberately created the universe. 3.) So, if God were to exist, then he would be a perfect being who deliberately created something. 4.) To be perfect, one cannot have any needs or wants. 5.) To deliberately create something, one must have at least one need or want. 6.) Thus, it is impossible for a perfect being to deliberately create anything. 7.) Therefore, God cannot exist. GOD's omnipresence (ever -present) ARGUMENT FROM THE SELF 1.) If God exists, he is omnipresent (occupying all space). 2.) Since God occupies all space, past, present, and future, there is nothing that is NOT God. 3.) God therefore, cannot have a sense of the independent self. 4.) Since God has no sense of the self or non-self, he cannot have a consciousness. 5.) In conclusion, God cannot have a mind and would resemble nothing more than the non-conscious Universe. GOD is omniscience (all knowing) 1 John 3 3:20 in F21 whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Counter Arguments ON HELL 1.) God is all-knowing. 2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn’t believe in him. 3.) I was born to go to Hell. Comments: (Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.) ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN 1.) God is omniscient (all knowing) 2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge. 3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway. 4.) God wanted sin to enter the world. Comments: (If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?) Why I had no choice arguments ON MAN'S FREEWILL 1.) God has an unchangeable plan for everything past, present & future. 2.) Everything that occurs past, present and future will be part of God's unchanging plan. 3.) Thoughts and actions occur and are part of God's unchanging plan. 4.) Thoughts and actions cannot be anything other than what God has planned. 5.) Free-will doesn't exist. FREEWILL ARGUMENT FOR THE NONEXISTENCE OF GOD 1.) The Christian God is a personal being and is omniscient. 2.) Personal beings have free will.(according to most Christians) 3.) To have freewill, a personal being must be able to make a choice. 4.) A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty". It knows its choices in advance. 5.) God has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore has no free will. 6.) Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist. 7.) Therefore, the Christian God does not exist. INFALLIBLE KNOWLEDGE / FREEWILL ARGUMENT 1.) God knows infallibly what will occur in the Universe before it occurs. 2.) God can’t change the future because he knows everything absolutely. 3.) God has no Free-will. GOD is unchangeable Numbers 23 :19 23:19 " God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness 1.) If God exists, then he is immutable. 2.) If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe. 3.) An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention. 4.) For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it. 5.) Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4). 6.) Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) All Powerfull Ceds Arguement Jeremiah 32:17 'Ah Lord GOD! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You, Summary It cleary states that nothing is too difficult for God Jaiyeson Argument Question 1) Can god create a boulder so heavy that even God himself could never lift it? 2) If nothing is to difficult for god then the answer would be yes 3) There now exist a boulder to difficult for God to lift 4) Jeremiah 32:17 is a logical error. God is not all powerfull However lets say you answer the question with a no. 1) Can god create a boulder so heavy that even God himself could never lift it? 2) No, because God cannot create something he could never lift. He would always be able to lift it. 3) There is something to difficult for God. He can never create something he could never lift. It is beyond his scope 4) Jeremiah 32:17 is a logical error. God is not all powerfull Counter argument to Jaiyeson with Jaiyeson counter-counter arguments 1)God would never put itself into that scenatio thus the scenario would never happen. 1- The statement presented in Jeremiah 32:17 allows the argument to exist. 1-c) If God refused to do it he would acknowledge the scenarios existence. 1-d) If God said the scenario does not exist. Then once again God acknowledges the existence of the scenario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 I have already seen that thing elsewhere, I think the sciforum... The arguments used here are based on hypotheses that are as much "provable" as the existance of a god. First, why a god has to be perfect to exist? why a god has to be a creator of the entire universe, and not part of it? why would a perfect being not have need and wants? Secondly, why should a god occupy all space and be omnipresent everywhere, and from when past present and future are space? Time and space are two different dimentions. Only in a singularity both become one, and even then... considering that in a black hole you can move in time and not space etc... and more why one can not be self-aware if he or she takes the entire space... take human brain and place it on an non-determinated space where you place an asymptotic limit on the extremities of the brain... no one could reach it and it will be considered as infinitly big and take all the space in that universe... still we are all self-aware. More to this, I do take all the space as a consciencenous being, I am my universe, which is infinit... I observe this universe waiting my own self-awarness... that does not change the fact that I am self-aware. The rest of the critic is paradoxes, and paradoxs are not evidences of the non-existance of something... if they were we would have to conclude that we don't even exist since our existance in itself is a paradox of the same sort as the existance of a god would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 First, why a god has to be perfect to exist? why a god has to be a creator of the entire universe, and not part of it? why would a perfect being not have need and wants? Well, it goes back to my argument that a being not perfect does not deserve to be called God in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 Well, it goes back to my argument that a being not perfect does not deserve to be called God in the first place. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 What are the attributes of God? What differentiates God from the rest of us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 First, why a god has to be perfect to exist? why a god has to be a creator of the entire universe, and not part of it? why would a perfect being not have need and wants? Secondly, why should a god occupy all space and be omnipresent everywhere, and from when past present and future are space? Time and space are two different dimentions. Only in a singularity both become one, and even then... considering that in a black hole you can move in time and not space etc... and more why one can not be self-aware if he or she takes the entire space... take human brain and place it on an non-determinated space where you place an asymptotic limit on the extremities of the brain... no one could reach it and it will be considered as infinitly big and take all the space in that universe... still we are all self-aware. More to this, I do take all the space as a consciencenous being, I am my universe, which is infinit... I observe this universe waiting my own self-awarness... that does not change the fact that I am self-aware. I get the idea it's because all of that happens to consist of the tenets of the monotheistic religions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 As soon as one questions the meaning of life then one by default touches the outer edges of God since without it life is pointless and can any atheist convincingly argue he or she does not need any meaning in his or her existence? This is the heart of the matter life is too complex, rich and simple to live through it without knowing his or her true existence. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 Questions From A Real Athiest You don't seem to ask questions but give answers. BTW, Chrisitianity is not the only religion in the world, there are other religions and theologies. If you had done a sincere search rather than attempt to find excuses to reject the existence of God you wouldn't ask erroneous questions and give erroneous answers. You would find answers to most questions if not all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 As soon as one questions the meaning of life then one by default touches the outer edges of God since without it life is pointless and can any atheist convincingly argue he or she does not need any meaning in his or her existence? This is the heart of the matter life is too complex, rich and simple to live through it without knowing his or her true existence. . Very much in agreement kind sage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 As soon as one questions the meaning of life then one by default touches the outer edges of God since without it life is pointless... Armat I read your similar post in the other thread and was thinking about it ... what if point of life IS to find a point to life? In other words, why can't life be a point in and of itself? Because it seems to me that's how it has been while many have tried to find other "meanings". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 by posting this long series of self-fulfilling questions and answers you prove that you and others like you have still not reached that level of consciousness where you stop analyzing things with the finite human mind and intelligence and start to see the universe through spiritual spectacles and connect with the universe on a higher level...not to put you down...it's an 'evolutionary' process, we all evolve and learn...and some choose to stubbornly resist this natural vertical movement...your perceptions are your reality but there are things that we cannot perceive with intellect and the physical senses, so obviously to follow your line of thinking it only appears that God does not exist! since you choose to only look at bits and pieces of the puzzle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 A little off-topic but bruin, your reference to consciousness reminded me...Atheism or Darwinism cannot even explain consciousness. In the words of William Dembski: The match between our intelligence and the intelligibility of the world is no accident. Nor can it properly be attributed to natural selection, which places a premium on survival and reproduction and has no stake in truth or conscious thought. Indeed, meat-puppet robots are just fine as the output of a Darwinian evolutionary process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 by posting this long series of self-fulfilling questions and answers you prove that you and others like you have still not reached that level of consciousness where you stop analyzing things with the finite human mind and intelligence and start to see the universe through spiritual spectacles and connect with the universe on a higher level... And I'm guessing you have reached that level? Well good for you! Then by all means stop analyzing things with your finite human mind and let the rest of us fools and idiots that have not yet reached your level and "seen the light" wallow in our miserable, albight finite, analysis-based existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 As soon as one questions the meaning of life then one by default touches the outer edges of God since without it life is pointless and can any atheist convincingly argue he or she does not need any meaning in his or her existence? This is the heart of the matter life is too complex, rich and simple to live through it without knowing his or her true existence. . Yes, Armat, I did question the meaning of life, and I can honestly say that I took the search of my existence a bit more seriously than the majority of the people in my age group. And at first it was a shock for me to realize that I was an atheist, because I thought everything had become purposeless without the feeling of the safety and comfort of a God. But in a short amount of time I realized that my life is very rich - even richer than before when I was "searching" for a meaning in life. I don't need God to find my life meaningful. I find plenty of meaning in my life as a piano teacher. Currently I'm teaching beginners, but I'm looking forward to be teaching college level students in the future. Therefore I'm looking forward to continuing my studies in the art of piano performance. I'm not playing the piano and playing Bach's pieces because of the believe in God and the feeling that I'm serving God - no, I'm playing the piano and teaching that art because I believe that my existence on this planet is to be a part of the next generation Classical musicians and through my contributions (no matter how small) keep the art of Classical music alive. What's beyond this material world doesn't concern me anymore. It doesn't terrify me, neither does it fascinate me. True, I have to admit I sometimes miss fantasizing about the unknown, but I've come to realize that all of that wondering, and dreaming, and searching for meaning in life is not a necessity anymore, for I’ve found my place in this world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted April 11, 2004 Report Share Posted April 11, 2004 Armat I read your similar post in the other thread and was thinking about it ... what if point of life IS to find a point to life? In other words, why can't life be a point in and of itself? Because it seems to me that's how it has been while many have tried to find other "meanings". I was trying to say something very similar in my above, lengthy post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 The only meaning of life is to survive and procreate. Nothing more, nothing less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 The only meaning of life is to survive and procreate. Nothing more, nothing less. Hmm... is that all we do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 And I'm guessing you have reached that level? Well good for you! Then by all means stop analyzing things with your finite human mind and let the rest of us fools and idiots that have not yet reached your level and "seen the light" wallow in our miserable, albight finite, analysis-based existence. ooo bite me! if you dropped your ego for two seconds you'd be on that evolutionary path and would not take offense so easily! no one makes us feel dumb without our consent so your problem is not with me but with yourself...and for the record i was not analyzing...it's called an observation! analyzing would entail going into details of why some choose not to evolve and the reasons and the circumstances that contribute to that! your ignorance is not my business nor my concern, so buzz off!!! starting to whine and bitch like a girl!!! funny how you accused armo77 of that! that X chromosome is having its effects eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 The meaning of life is to rack up a post count above 1000. Thus I can acquiesce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 ooo bite me! if you dropped your ego for two seconds you'd be on that evolutionary path and would not take offense so easily! I fail to see how I am the one suffering from an enlarged ego when I'm not the one who seems to have all the answers around here. And I must say, of all the insults you have thrown my way recently (and I must point out I haven't really fired back yet ) comparing me to Armo77 was just the worst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 I fail to see how I am the one suffering from an enlarged ego when I'm not the one who seems to have all the answers around here. And I must say, of all the insults you have thrown my way recently (and I must point out I haven't really fired back yet ) comparing me to Armo77 was just the worst dude! get a life! the way i react to people is based on the way they behave! think about it a bit! insults?? who's throwing insults? YOU are the one who jumped all over my post! and besides i thought you said before that you're only an agnostic and not an atheist! whine whine whine...if you're gonna get sooo emotional with posts and members on here maybe you should stop being a moderator! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Armat I read your similar post in the other thread and was thinking about it ... what if point of life IS to find a point to life? In other words, why can't life be a point in and of itself? Because it seems to me that's how it has been while many have tried to find other "meanings". Sip To me life can never be a point in itself. Because my inner self does not feel fulfilled and that is the greatest clue for me for existence of soul and God since if none of these things existed then why am I feeling a void, unfulfillment. I got a beautiful wife, kids, talent, house and yet not fulfilled. I can't speak for you or others but to me there is more to life then mere existing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Haven't seen your face but I can imagine the look in your face when you're posting about your little chess champions ... so I don't know bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 LOL... Excuse me for saying so, but this thread is a riot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtraHye Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 LOL... Excuse me for saying so, but this thread is a riot... You could say that again!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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