Revolution

[Accelerated]

I just watched the news report on the Armenian C1 channel - government controlled I assume: there was some short footage of the rioting (without commentary), followed by condemnation by a string of various government officials and then conveniently on to Iraq.... Edited April 13, 2004 by Accelerated

[ARR]

Opposition has finally got what they wanted, a rule of law. Now they will there, where they really belong, jail. I am sure they can easily be elected as "gogh" or "vor v zakone" in their cells.

 

I am especially happy for arrest of Arshak Sadoyan, half criminal half politician old fart. He will be reunited with his friends "criminal" and "gogher" in the jail.

 

Apparently opposition was misjudging about their potential and Kocharian's soft spoken stance, they sought to seize the power with 10-15 thousands of people. Assuming their claim that they got more votes than Kocharian is true. Then in Erevan alone opposition should have had over 236,000 supporters of 472,300 total voted according to official central election site www.elections.am. However the "united" opposition with 12 parties has only attracted 10-15 thousands people from all over Armenia. Even with roads closed on outstrips of Erevan, why 236,000 supposed voters for opposition in Erevan did not participate? Things speak for itself, opposition bubble has burst.

Edited April 13, 2004 by ARR

[alpha]

Mass arrests, beating of people, using tear gas against its own people – does these events remind of Tianamen Square. Yes, the establishment of totalitarian regime is becoming more of a reality for the junta. However their shortsightedness shows their real intellectual capacity, because humans are species that are able to reason, so using a force against them is nothing else, but belittling them. We, Armenians, are prideful people and when people’s pride is hurt they can become unruly. Junta can arrest opposition leaders, can even kill them, but new leaders will born, because it’s the popular demand that produces leaders that stand up for human rights. Kocharyan’s junta should realize that peoples will can only be bent but never broken. Finally the monster has taken off its mask. You think people will forget this, or will forgive them for violating their basic rights, right of assembly and to express their opinion. I hope the societies of the West that preach democratic values and human rights won’t give a green light to totalitarianism in Armenian and the events that happened on the night of April 12 won’t go unnoticed.

 

http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniarepor...F53150E4553.ASP

 

Opposition Offices Seized By Police, Leaders In Hiding

 

 

By Shakeh Avoyan and Ruzanna Stepanian

 

The offices of two leading Armenian opposition parties were seized by police and their leaders went into hiding on Tuesday. The police also cut short a news conference by two other opposition leaders who vowed to continue to fight for President Robert Kocharian’s resignation.

 

Meanwhile, three opposition lawmaker remained under arrest for their active participation in the anti-Kocharian demonstration broken up by security forces the previous night. Two of them, Shavarsh Kocharian of the Artarutyun bloc and Aleksan Karapetian of the National Unity Party (AMK) were arrested at the scene. Law-enforcement authorities claimed that Kocharian (no relation to the Armenian president) was held carrying a weapon, a charge strongly denied by his supporters.

 

The third parliamentarian, Arshak Sadoyan, was taken away from his home in the morning. Officials said he could be charged with an attempt to “seize power.” Also arrested were two other prominent Artarutyun figures, former Defense Minister Vagharshak Harutiunian and former Deputy Health Minister Artak Zeynalian.

 

Also, the police visited the Yerevan apartment of another prominent opposition leader, Vazgen Manukian, with a search warrant. Manukian was not at home. His wife refused to let them in.

 

The offices of the AMK and a major Artarutyun party, Hanrapetutyun, were ransacked by heavily armed police immediately after the brutal suppression of the anti-Kocharian protest on Baghramian Avenue leading to the presidential palace. Dozens of opposition activists were reportedly detained in the raids. Law-enforcement officials continued to occupy the offices as of Tuesday evening, refusing to let anyone in.

 

Fleeing the attacking special police units, the leaders of the two parties, Artashes Geghamian and Aram Sarkisian, found refuge in a secluded house off Baghramian Avenue together with some 30 people, including two RFE/RL correspondents. They were separately taken to unknown locations by supporters at dawn. Geghamian later contacted RFE/RL, alleging that the authorities are “terrorizing” his family members.

 

The police also burst into the headquarters of another Artarutyun force, the People’s Party of Armenia (HZhK), at about the same time, breaking doors, smashing office equipment and arresting its senior members, including the party spokeswoman Ruzan Khachatrian. They left the building only to reappear at its entrance early in the afternoon just as the HZhK leader Stepan Demirchian met reporters to comment the situation. The law-enforcement officers again left after prompting a noisy uproar from about 50 Demirchian supporters who gathered outside the building.

 

“What happened was a crime,” Demirchian said. “It was a military operation, a terror against the people, and the ruling coalition is also responsible. The special police attacked and beat the people from the National Assembly compound while our deputies were denied entry into the parliament.”

 

But Kocharian defended the use of force, saying through a spokesman that the opposition actions amounted to “political extremism.” He warned that further attempts to force him into resignation would be countered in the same way.

 

The presidential press secretary, Ashot Kocharian, said the opposition disrupted “the normal work” of the president and the parliament, thereby “endangering the country’s constitutional order.” “The demonstrators did not obey the legitimate orders of police officers,” the official said.

 

Kocharian discussed the situation on Friday with leaders of the pro-presidential majority in the Armenian. They effectively justified his actions.

 

The police, meanwhile, claimed that the protesters themselves assaulted security officers with stones and petrol bombs. “Police repeatedly warned demonstrators that their unlawful actions would be met with adequate reaction if they were to continue,” its chief spokesman, Sayad Shirinian said in televised remarks. “But, despite this, the transgressors went on for quite a long time with their anti-social actions. On top of this, in response to [our] warnings, they started moving menacingly toward police forces.”

 

However, various eyewitnesses insist that the eight-hour demonstration was peaceful until the riot police charged against its participants, using truncheons, water cannons and stun grenades.

 

There was no immediate reaction to the dramatic developments from the United States, Russia, the European Union and other pan-European organizations. The U.S. and German ambassadors to Armenia met with Demirchian on Friday but issued no public statements afterwards.

 

Ambassador Vladimir Pryakhin, the head of the Yerevan office of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, expressed concern at the tense situation during a meeting with Kocharian. Pryakhin told RFE/RL that the use of force against peaceful demonstrators is “unacceptable” but at the same time endorsed police claims that they behaved aggressively.

[Anoushik]

I just watched the news report on the Armenian C1 channel - government controlled I assume: there was some short footage of the rioting (without commentary), followed by condemnation by a string of various government officials and then conveniently on to Iraq.... 

I also just watched the "Hyelur" on the Armenian channel. They dedicated almost the entire news to the riots that took place last night. The head of the police was also present in the studio and explained why actions had to be taken by the police. I know that Hyelur is government controlled, and they did show little footage of the riots, but it was very convincing to see why people were arrested. Someone hit the police from the back, crushing a glass bottle on his head. What, the police should just stand there without fighting back? The opposition claims that the meeting was peaceful, but the police were clearly being attacked by the angry mob. The opposititon took advantage of some poor, elderly people and turned them into violent mobs. They created an angry crowd in which old people were beating the police with rocks, bottles, anything they could find. For what! Just so some idiots can have the power of the chair?

[axel]

Independent vs government-controlled media

 

About RFE/RL

 

Under IRS rules, RFE/RL is a private, non-profit Sec. 501© 3 corporation. Chartered in Delaware, it receives federal grants as a private grantee. RFE/RL's corporate board of directors consists of the nine presidential appointees to the Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG).

 

The chairman of the Broadcasting Board of Governors is Kenneth Tomlinson.

 

The president of RFE/RL is Thomas A. Dine. Prior to his appointment in August, 1997, he served as assistant administrator for Europe and the New Independent States at the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). Earlier, he headed the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).

 

http://www.rferl.org/about/organization/structure.asp

 

About AIPAC

 

http://www.aipac.org

Edited April 13, 2004 by axel

[axel]

Independent media in Georgia

 

"The Soros fund has also funded the opposition Rustavi-2 TV channel. The Canadian newspaper Globe and Mail claimed that Soros organizations' money was used to transport opposition members to Tbilisi, and a huge screen was placed in front of the parliament building for Shevardnadze's opponents."

 

http://www.yerkir.am/eng/index.php?sub=new...mber=05&id=3173

 

Independent opposition groups

 

"Georgians first formed links with Otpor in the spring of 2003, when several civil society activists visited Belgrade on a trip sponsored by the Soros foundation (created by billionaire financier George Soros). "

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3288547.stm

Edited April 13, 2004 by axel

[ARR]

Junta - according to Webster dictionary is a Latin word meaning a group of persons controlling a government especially after a revolutionary seizure of power.

 

Kocharian did not come to power after revolution, but after Leven Ter-Petrosian resigned because of his pro-Azeri stance on Artsax problem. Kocharian was elected in 1998 beating Demirchian elder.

 

However, junta by opposition has just been prevented and organizers will be punished!

 

 

RFE/RL that is www.armenialiberty.org is Western sponsored media, which is anti-Russian and pursues interests of West (especially US and UK). And we all know that interests of the U.S. and U.K. are not always coinciding with interests of Armenia. For example Armenian Genocide, Closed Turkish border, Artsax conflict. While Russia has recognized Armenian Genocide, protects Armenia from Turkey, and supplied $1 billion worth weapons to Artsax and Armenia for free.

[Twilight Bark]

Independence was juxtaposed with the ascent of military concerns and therefore the military itself. When the military is the midwife of a "democracy", you can expect long decades of painful plastic surgery in order to fix the damage inflicted upon birth. Look at Turkey or Pakistan for a couple of quick examples. India, on the other hand, against all odds, remains a fairly healthy democracy, nothwithstanding its other cultural "defects".

Anyone agreeing or disagreeing with this?

[Sasun]

Anyone agreeing or disagreeing with this?

I thought it was obvious.

[Twilight Bark]

I thought it was obvious.

Well, yes, but ...

Then we should perhaps be more relaxed about the state of affairs over there, since the developmental scenario of the country has been a screwed-up one from the beginning. It just needs to take its course, and cleanse itself of its militaristic beginnings. Say about 30 years, to be optimistic. Are we all OK with that?

[alpha]

Those of you, who claim that Kocharyan was elected, would probably claim that Saddam Hussain was elected too, as well as Milosevic, or Causescu. Falsifying elections and usurping power can only be done by junta, which is the case in the Republic of Armenia nowadays. The falsifications of the last elections in Armenia is recorded by the European monitors that were present there.

 

Unlike the junta, which currently occupies the post of presidency of Armenia, Levon Ter-Petrossian had the courage to step down and not cling to power when he realized his policies did not have a popular support.

 

Hopefully justice will be served and like the like the above-mentioned dictators, our dictator will be judged in people’s court for his crimes committed against our people.

 

http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/righ...eav041304.shtml

 

 

GOVERNMENT FORCIBLY BREAKS UP OPPOSITION PROTEST

4/13/04

 

Police in Armenia used stun grenades and water cannon to disperse an opposition protest during the early hours of April 13 in Yerevan. In addition, authorities closed the offices of two leading opposition political parties involved in organizing the demonstration, which President Robert Kocharian said threatened the country’s "constitutional order."

 

Officials did not immediately disclose information concerning the number of people hurt during the police crackdown. They also released few details about the number of opposition political activists taken into custody. Armenian media reports indicated that dozens of people were severely beaten by truncheon-wielding police, who descended on about 2,000 opposition supporters camping out on Yerevan’s main road, Marshal Baghramian Avenue, not far from the Armenian parliament building. According to one unofficial estimate, 30 people required hospitalization. One individual was reportedly in serious condition, while 14 were supposedly treated and released from area hospitals.

 

The assault began at about 2 am, with columns of police clad in riot gear moving against demonstrators from at least two directions, in what observers said was a maneuver designed to trap the protesters. Eyewitnesses reported that authorities indiscriminately beat protesters. Many journalists, in particular photographers and television camera operators, became embroiled in the melee. The Aykakan Zhamanak newspaper, for example, reported that two of its correspondents were "badly beaten."

 

Authorities insisted that protesters had provoked police. Interior Minister Sayat Shirinian alleged that the demonstrators had ignored warnings to disperse peacefully, and later started to move "menacingly" towards law-enforcement officers, state television reported. Kocharian justified the police action as necessary to combat "political extremism."

 

One of the protest organizers, Stepan Demirchian, head of the Justice bloc and a bitter political foe of Kocharian’s, said the police action constituted a "crime" designed to "terrorize the population." Artashes Geghamian -- leader of the National Unity Party, and another main protest organizer – characterized the police action on April 13 as a "barbaric act," the Arminfo news agency reported. Geghamian along with several other prominent opposition figures went into hiding.

 

Authorities on April 13 shuttered the offices of the National Unity Party and the Republic Party, both of them vocal critics of Kocharian’s administration. The offices were ransacked, according to media reports. Three opposition MPs -- Shavarsh Kocharian, Aleksan Karapetian and Arshak Sadoian, were taken into custody. According to some reports, Kocharian (no relation to the president) was later released.

 

Foreign governments refrained from making any immediate comment on the violence. German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer is scheduled to arrive in Yerevan next week, and German embassy official gave no indication that the trip might be postponed. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe sought to stake out neutral ground, indicating that both sides had engaged in action in recent days that contributed to the violence.

 

The April 13 police action was the culmination of four days of opposition protests organized with the specific aim of forcing Kocharian’s resignation. [For additional information see the Eurasia Insight archive]. Demirchian, Geghamian and other opposition say Kocharian’s administration is illegitimate, alleging that he rigged 2003 presidential and parliamentary elections. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].

 

On April 12, a protest march involving between 10,000-15,000 opposition supporters marched through central Yerevan in a largely peaceful manner. Security forces ultimately blocked the protesters from approaching Kocharian’s executive offices, located on Marshal Baghramian Avenue, and roughly 2,000 protestors decided to camp out in central Yerevan overnight. That set the stage for the pre-dawn violence.

[ARR]

Those of you, who claim that Kocharyan was elected, would probably claim that Saddam Hussain was elected too, as well as Milosevic, or Causescu. 

Not really, you have to be in complete denial and stretch your imagination to extremes to make parallels between any of the people you have listed and Kocharian. Or be intoxicated by passionate hate towards a person not to see mountains of differences between them.

 

If opposition opposes Kocharian's policies, they should announce alternative policies. But instead they just don’t like Kocharian, or rather like his position.

 

 

I meant elected like George W Bush…

Edited April 13, 2004 by ARR

[alpha]

ARR,

The similarities between Saddam Hussein, Milosevic, Causescu and Kocharyan are the following:

1. They all used nationalism to come to power

2. They all used falsified elections to stay in power

3. They all used force against their own people

 

The list can go on and on, but I think I’d rather stop here.

 

Also, if you want to get into a reasonable argument, make a point without discrediting the information source or getting into personal attacks. Your arguments will be a lot stronger if you provide factual information and set aside personal attacks. All of us want what’s good for the Armenian people, its just my vision of Armenia and yours are diagonally different. I see Armenia as a European country with lawfully elected president, where people have the freedom of speech and assembly. Yours is the current desolate Armenia where people are beaten up and freedom of expression is violently suppressed.

[alpha]

Reaction of the free world to the events in Armenia.

 

US Concerned Over Rising Political Tensions in Armenia

David Gollust

State Department

13 Apr 2004, 22:19 UTC

 

http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectI...819F9472320817#

 

The United States expressed concern Tuesday about rising political tensions in Armenia, where government security forces have dealt harshly with protesters calling for the resignation of President Robert Kocharian.

The written statement from State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said the United States is concerned about the political situation in Armenia and particularly the "sharp escalation in confrontation" between the government and opposition.

 

Mr. Boucher called on both sides to enter into a dialogue that will lessen tension and focus the political process in the country on the challenges of continued political and economic reform.

 

The U.S. statement came after opposition political leaders in Armenia vowed to press ahead with a campaign to force Mr. Kocharian's resignation following the breakup of an anti-government rally in the capital, Yerevan.

 

News accounts said police used water cannons and stun grenades to disperse a crowd of about 3,000 demonstrators along the city's main thoroughfare near the parliament. Opposition sources said several protesters were injured, others arrested, and opposition party offices ransacked.

 

Government officials defended their handling of the incident, saying protesters provoked the police by throwing stones and calling for the violent overthrow of the government. The opposition denies the claims.

 

In his statement, spokesman Boucher said physical assaults, raids on political party offices, and widespread arrests and detentions of opposition activists by police "do not contribute to an atmosphere conducive to political dialogue."

 

He said the United States calls on both sides to respect the role of peaceful assembly and to take all steps to prevent violence.

 

 

Armenian opposition elements have been staging almost nightly protests in the last week to push demands for the departure of Mr. Kocharian, whom they blame for high poverty rates, an authoritarian governing style. They also accuse him of rigging the March 2003 election in which he gained a second five-year term in office.

 

The State Department said at the time it concurred with an assessment by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe that the election was marred by serious irregularities and fell short of international standards.

 

It said the election was deeply disappointing and that the Armenian leadership had missed an important opportunity to advance democracy by holding a "credible" election.

[alpha]

As a grandchild of genocide survivor I add my voice to Raffi Hovhannissian's statement.

 

http://www.a1plus.am/eng/?go=issue&id=1650...d58e62b735b2cdb

 

RAFFI HOVHANNISSYAN SLAMS VIOLENCE AGAINST PEOPLE

 

Former Armenian Foreign Minister Raffi Hovhannissyan voiced strong disapproval over the authorities’ step against people.

 

"We seem unwilling or unable to learn from history, especially our own. It is to this bitter, ever repeating truth that all of us, together, are once again bearing witness.

 

The official acts of violence unleashed against my fellow citizens I firmly condemn. To their victims I wish a full recovery. To the people struggling in defense of their rights I express my solidarity.

 

Notwithstanding the broad array of mathematical theories, it was crystal clear a year ago that we were on the road to reaping what was methodically sown by the adversaries of liberty and right. Including the president and his office.

 

All this is unraveling not on the territory of a foreign empire - whether genocidal or benevolent -but in the capital of our sovereign homeland. Despite the background of this deep contradiction between national pride and civic shame, it is still possible finally to draw modern lessons from our past inheritance.

 

In and for this confrontation we all are responsible, but first and foremost the ruler of the republic. Stability, national security, law, freedom, and the God-given right to choose are not merely empty excuses for him or his opponent, but rather represent benchmarks and guarantees for all. And the country’s international strength and standing, its capacity to forge solutions to its many fundamental challenges turn directly on our conduct and demeanor in our own home.

 

As a proud citizen of Armenia, and as an heir of Genocide and its survival who believes in the ultimate triumph of historical truth, I feel profound shame that the contemporary rights and dignity of the Armenian man and woman can so easily and so brutally be violated in our own land. And it is with pain, shared by so many, that I reject the self-serving myopia and self-satisfied partisanship that have rendered the united will of the founders and defenders of our homeland unto an abyss so unbefitting our forebears and fallen heroes.

 

At this juncture of widespread hypocrisy, perhaps one final opportunity for an initiative of nobility and responsibility is still open before us, and particularly for him. How is he going to correct the big mistake, how will he clean the polluted source, how will he secure public harmony? The bell of our, and his, national essence and future legacy has tolled.

 

The Armenian state and its citizens - the nation entire - shall rise again, in the face of all ramparts and for the sake of generations yet to come", the statement says.

[ARR]

ARR,

The similarities between Saddam Hussein, Milosevic, Causescu and Kocharyan are the following:

1. They all used nationalism to come to power

2. They all used falsified elections to stay in power

3. They all used force against their own people

 

The list can go on and on, but I think I’d rather stop here.

 

Also, if you want to get into a reasonable argument, make a point without discrediting the information source or getting into personal attacks.  Your arguments will be a lot stronger if you provide factual information and set aside personal attacks.  All of us want what’s good for the Armenian people, its just my vision of Armenia and yours are diagonally different.  I see Armenia as a European country with lawfully elected president, where people have the freedom of speech and assembly.  Yours is the current desolate Armenia where people are beaten up and freedom of expression is violently suppressed.

Alpha,

 

 

My inference from your posts is that you deeply hate Kocharian as a person. And as I recall from your past post, you have even called him a turk. Which of course does not have any logical explanations, but that Armenians tend to call turk anything or anyone they hate very much. If I am wrong on my assumption, let me know.

 

1. George Washington used nationalism to come to power too, So what?

2. It is your assumption that Kocharian got fewer votes than Demrichian. I think Kocharian won, but not with such big margin as officially claimed. Falsifications were from both sides. Of course government resources are of advantage to incumbent.

3. Using force against rioters is a common practice in all civilized countries.

 

My good for Armenia is:

 

1. Artaskh within Armenia.

2. Recognized Genocide.

3. Strong Economy

4. Socially Supported Population

5. Independent and fair justice structures

6. Freedom of speech

7. European country, but not at expense of Russian relations

[alpha]

ARR,

I urged you to back your arguments with factual information, which you did not. I advise you to not be engaged in arguments if you don’t have any facts. I called Kocharyan turk? When? Why?. Turks are our neighbors, and establishing normal relations with them should be our priority. But that’s not the point of my argument.

 

1. George Washington used nationalism to come to power too, So what?

 

I don’t know how familiar you are with US history, but where did you obtain the fact that George Washington used nationalism. He simply used commercial interests of colonies to rally people. There was no nation, to use nationalism at that time. At the beginning of the Revolutionary War only one third of colonists supported the Independence of the colonies, but at the end George Washington had the support of most colonists.

 

2. It is your assumption that Kocharian got fewer votes than Demrichian. I think Kocharian won, but not with such big margin as officially claimed. Falsifications were from both sides. Of course government resources are of advantage to incumbent.

European monitors gave their opinion about the elections. Read their report. We want to be part of EU, so their opinion should matter, shouldn't it?

 

3. Using force against rioters is a common practice in all civilized countries.

I think your definition of “civilized countries” need to be refined. Humans are species that are able to reason. Civilized people use dialog instead of force.

 

Let’s see what Kocharyan’s regime did for your good of Armenia.

 

1. Artaskh within Armenia.

Artsakh is not part of the negotiations anymore after junta usurped the power. The issue became a territorial one, instead of self determination of Artsaxi people. Current world structure does not endorse separatism, yet liberal ideas of self-determination are looked upon as an essential rights of people.

 

2. Recognized Genocide

What will this give to citizens of Republic of Armenia?

 

 

3. Strong Economy

If you look at the numbers that come out of Statistical Office of Armenia, you’d think they are talking about Switzerland, yet most people there are living at poverty levels. The country is experiencing huge current account deficit, which is bad for the economy in the long run.

 

 

4. Socially Supported Population

What do you mean by this.

 

5. Independent and fair justice structures

Appoitment of criminal like Aghvan Hovsepyan as chief prosecutor will definitely serve this He is doing his job right by issuing search warrants like it's 1937.

 

6. Freedom of speech

Closure of A1+ and beating of journalists will enhance freedom of speech.

 

7. European country, but not at expense of Russian relations

Creation of totalitarian regime by suppressing the opposition will turn Armenia into a Middle Eastern fiefdom like Syria, not a European country.

[ARR]

alpha,

 

Here is an argument:

 

Apparently opposition was misjudging about their potential and Kocharian's soft spoken stance, they sought to seize the power with 10-15 thousands of people. Assuming their claim that they got more votes than Kocharian is true. Then in Erevan alone opposition should have had over 236,000 supporters of 472,300 total voted according to official central election site www.elections.am. However the "united" opposition with 12 parties has only attracted 10-15 thousands people from all over Armenia. Even with roads closed on outstrips of Erevan, why 236,000 supposed voters for opposition in Erevan did not participate? Things speak for itself, opposition bubble has burst.

 

What is your explaination?

[Sasun]

No matter what, there is not excuse to arrest peaceful demonstrators. The opposition wants power, and that is not a crime. In fact, it is the job of the opposition to tend to gain power. And Kocharian arrests them for rallying to the presidential palace and wanting power? What was the harm they did? OK, let's say some attacked the policemen, they should get arrested, fair enough. What about not letting people from regions enter Yerevan? Who is Kocharian to ban people to travel in their own country? What is the illegality in that? That's just pathetic fear and reaction.

Then let's see, ununiformed policemen arrest opposition activists hear and there. At their homes, the police intimidates their families. Parliament deputies get detained, they are not allowed to enter in the parliament. The government is not allowing the deputies, the elective representatives of the people, do their job and represent the people. This is a gross violation of the rights of not just the deputies, but the people who they represent.

 

What to conclude? Well, Kocharian government is not a junta but is not really any better than junta.

Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for our revengeful opposition. But that's not a reason for the brutal treatment they got from the government.

The situation is pretty bad actually. No matter who wins, we will have a very bad government.

[Sasun]

alpha,

 

Here is an argument:

 

Apparently opposition was misjudging about their potential and Kocharian's soft spoken stance, they sought to seize the power with 10-15 thousands of people. Assuming their claim that they got more votes than Kocharian is true. Then in Erevan alone opposition should have had over 236,000 supporters of 472,300 total voted according to official central election site www.elections.am. However the "united" opposition with 12 parties has only attracted 10-15 thousands people from all over Armenia. Even with roads closed on outstrips of Erevan, why 236,000 supposed voters for opposition in Erevan did not participate? Things speak for itself, opposition bubble has burst.

 

What is your explaination?

With all due respect, what is the excuse here ARR? If the opposition does not have a 200 thousand rally then they should be arrested? What is the minimum number of the rally participants to pass the threshold of rallying without getting harassed?

[Anoushik]

With all due respect, what is the excuse here ARR? If the opposition does not have a 200 thousand rally then they should be arrested? What is the minimum number of the rally participants to pass the threshold of rallying without getting harassed?

I'm not ARR, but I do want to say that if the opposition wanted to avoid being arrested then maybe they shouldn't have attacked the police in the first place. And also, what about the innocent civilians who were trying to get some sleep at 2 a.m.? Surely having the "rally" participants sing and dance in the middle of the night must have disturbed people who were just trying to sleep.

[Sasun]

Anoushik, it is just an excuse. Arrests were during the day mostly. You think the government cares about people's sleep? Not really. I don't remember ever the police arresting the noisemakers while my sleep was disturbed

 

But the question is, why would anyone want to be arrested?

[Anoushik]

I don't remember ever the police arresting the noisemakers while my sleep was disturbed

Sasun, I just remembered how the police turned up at our door last year. It was past midnight and our guests had just left. Well, you know how Armenians start talking really loud when they are excited and have had a couple of drinks? Even when the guests had left my dad was talking excitedly about politics, Armenia, etc. (he was just talking but to a foreigner it might've seemed that he was yelling) when suddenly the police knocked on the door. My dad opened and we all went to see who it was. I'll never forget the look on the two policemen as they asked us worriedly if we were OK.

 

 

Back to topic, Sasun do you really think that the people didn't attack the police?

 

Another question - we are talking about a rally in which people were demanding the government to turn over the power to the opposition. People wanted a revolution. Do you honestly believe that if such a highly advertised event was organized in Washington DC Bush and the government would just let people "rally"?

[alpha]

Most oppostionists know the essence of Kocharyan really well. They have worked with him for quite long time. Don’t forget that Vagharshak Harutyunyan, Albert Bazeyan, Aram Sargsyan and many others worked with him before the massacre in Armenian parliament. What soft stance are you referring to, is it when he so laconically in front of the national TV talked about “soap bubble revolution”, or when Serj Sargsyan was referring about “ksatkatsnenk bolorin”. Soft spoken? You probably are not well informed. The brutality of the violent disbursement of rally lies in the fact that it was indiscriminate, they beat up everyone, including women and elders. Don’t they have an ounce of shame in them. What if it was their friends mother, or neighbors grandparents.

 

Do you think the struggle is about seizing power? Power can not be seized by declaring your plans. When Kocharyan seized the power from Ter-Petrossian did he declare of his plans? No of course he didn’t. Have you heard of a revolution in the history humanity when the date and place of it is declared. If the goal of the opposition was violent revolution then some violent acts could’ve been taken by them, weapons would’ve been distributed. Most of the oppositionsisThe police attacked peaceful demonstration, and that is nothing but treason toward Armenian people.

 

You’ve asked why 236,000 people did not take the streets. Don’t you think that only the most politically active segment of the populace takes the streets. The people for whom “danak@ arden hasel a voskorin, vor el hamberutyan bajak@ hatel e yerkrum tirogh anardarutyunnerits”. Even as an ardent supporter of the junta, you yourself have admitted that they have taken away the constitutionally reserved right of the people to travel freely in their country? Don’t you think that when people break the law, even if it’s a president there should be some consequences? Did you see what happened to the president of Lithuania a few days ago, for breaking the law. It doesn’t matter who is the president, \ by definition he should a servant of the people, be it Kocharyan, Poghosyan or Petrossian, the point is that no one should be above the law.

[ARR]

With all due respect, what is the excuse here ARR? If the opposition does not have a 200 thousand rally then they should be arrested? What is the minimum number of the rally participants to pass the threshold of rallying without getting harassed?

Guys,

 

First of all peaceful demonstrators should not call for and try to trash parliament and president's residence.

 

Second why should a 10-15 thousands demonstrators gain power from millions?

 

What if tomorrow coalition and president take their supporters to streets against opposition people? Should Armenia fell into turmoil because of ambitions of ex-prime ministers, ex-defense minister, ex-mayors, and others driven by revenge? What good have these people done when they were at power that now they demand power again?

 

 

Any of you guys who live in the most democratic country in the world, the U.S. can try going to a protest and throw soda bottles, stones at police. See what is going to happen you. You will most likely end up with your head smashed into asphalt and your hands handcuffed so hard that no blood flows to your fingers. And a few years in jail afterwards.