Dual Citizenship

[ED]

DIASPORA IS THE ARMENIAN OIL

 

 

”Georgia has a sea, Azerbaijan has oil, and we have a Diaspora. Neither the first president, nor the present Authorities or Opposition profited by its potential”, Armen Zatikyan, USA’ “Justice” Bloc member said during the telephone conversation with us.

 

He is concerned about the state indifference towards Diaspora: ”Robert Kocharyan means ARF when saying Diaspora but the Armenians in Diaspora are neglected”.

 

Zatikyan says that Diaspora is remembered only during the TV-Marathons. ”We all know where the money goes to. Diaspora is treated like a milch cow”.

 

Mr Zatikyan voiced discontent over the Constitution in force, which deprives the Armenians in Diaspora of the chance for dual citizenship. He cited the example of Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili who granted the Georgians all over the world citizenship of Georgia.

 

”We are the only nation in the world to have 5 times more compatriots all over the world than residing in the homeland. It’s just a high treason not to use that potential”.

 

Armen Zatikyan also says that the state was to spend millions for education of the Armenian people abroad. Now they are multimillionaires, educated and skilled ones but they can’t serve their homeland. ”At present 2 million Armenians reside in USA. If every day each Armenian takes a dollar out of his pocket, it will be possible to support the homeland by $ 2 million daily. If each of them saves 10 $ Armenia will monthly prosper by $ 600 million. But no one takes us and our rights into consideration”.

 

Mr Zatikyan obliges Opposition to mention Diaspora in the programs. ”Opposition has gained 93% of votes from USA. We now demand to join for democracy and releasing power from those who seized it. Why doesn’t Opposition reckon with the Commune? ”.

 

 

http://www.tipsto.com/world-radio-tv/armenia.htm

[Sasun]

We are the only nation in the world to have 5 times more compatriots all over the world than residing in the homeland.

5 times??? hard to believe.

[ED]

Maybe 3 or 4 at most, but he is addressing a very important issue in that article, and I believe its just an exercise to lack of power sharing, and eventually if granted, Diaspora bears lots of weight and can make a serious deference, not in just in financial contributions but in every sector, I wondered for a long time and its obvious "lawmakers" meanwhile are overlooking this very fact “lav tghaner” are just busy getting bigger belts and mansion building, and continuation of this kind of stand, eventually is going to disappoint lots of Disappearance who are enthusiastic and willing/eager to contribute. Fresh blood and new approaches, that is essential for Armenia now days. For which it’s a bit hard to find in ROA at present, and present times are crucial to insure for her survival Edited April 1, 2004 by Edward

[Sasun]

I agree that dual citizenship could be helpful but it must be a qualified dual citizenship. One cannot expect to get a citizenship of a country where he has never visited, for example. Those who spend some time in Armenia should be given citizenship. Also, the rights that come with citizenship should be accompanied with certain obligations, or else it would be unfair to regular citizens who have both rights and duties (such as paying taxes and serving in the army).

[ED]

I agree that dual citizenship could be helpful but it must be a qualified dual citizenship. One cannot expect to get a citizenship of a country where he has never visited, for example. Those who spend some time in Armenia should be given citizenship. Also, the rights that come with citizenship should be accompanied with certain obligations, or else it would be unfair to regular citizens who have both rights and duties (such as paying taxes and serving in the army).

for that and similar reasons they should start initial drafting and outline conditions such as you mantioned it, just simply ignoring the issue is stupid and counterproductive for ROA

[Sasun]

for that and similar reasons they should start initial drafting and outline conditions such as you mantioned it, just simply ignoring the issue is stupid and counterproductive for ROA

Yeah, I agree. That was actually one of Kocharian's promises when he became president. They are talking but that's all they do.

[Armat]

Yeah, I agree. That was actually one of Kocharian's promises when he became president. They are talking but that's all they do.

I used to be very strong Kocharian's supporters but he proved to be just another typical dictator.

I use to be against violent overthroughs of governments but now I don't see any alternatives.Georgians forced old dog Shevy out and great for them.We should do the same however I don't see anyone with honesty and brains to replace Kocharian for now.

Dual citizenship is way overdue.I just hate Government parasites

that all they do is talk.One thing is true we are way smart screwing eachother up.

[Boghos]

This issue was discussed in the past with views similar to those that have been expressed here. My romantic point of view is that Armenian citizenship should be given automatically to any Armenian that survived AG in a special cerimony in every single country. Nice way to rally the respective families. ROA should be seen as caring for the fate of the country and the diaspora, this would be a simple and meaningful way of doing it, and of course very fair. The rest: citizenship but no voting rights unless established in Armenia.

[-=VAHE=-]

Even though i hate Kocharyans guts im against the revolotion if it should come unless we have someone turstworthy to fill his place. It will also weaken the country during this time of progress or in the momentum of gaining progress, I don't know one of those two. Edited April 2, 2004 by Vahe G.

[ED]

Its ironic, for decades and centuries Armenian nation had a dream of independence, I always say and still do, give it a chance and it will thrive and prosper, I’m a strong believer in that, but, an issue as simple as dual citizenship, and I don’t know any other nation in this planet who championed so much or had dreams of one beautiful day have a right to call them self’s as one united people, for this same reason lack of progress from government of ROA as simple as (for example what Boghos stated) lack of adequate response or a solution. Do we blame an ordinary Diasporas for staying away or lack of involvements in Armenia? Wishful thinking maybe, but I for one can and welcome to see a “rose revolution” enough is enough!

[Proud EXPAT]

A so-called revolution or an attempt will have a serious negative affect on our economy. This is not the early 90's anymore. Lots and lots of people are working now and running around keeping busy. Seeing people playing nardi (backgammon) on the hoods of their car trunks is not as popular anymore.

 

I agree with Vahe G that only when someone who deserves to take over Kocharians seat should be the time change takes place.

 

As far as dual citizenship goes I think somehow the diaspora needs to put more pressure on this dumb president. How about blackmailing? Perhaps Kerkorian and all the other big investors should threaten the government and say "Dual citizenship or we're out". If then the government still does not give in, and investments disappear look how fast a revolution will take place.

[ED]

somehow the diaspora needs to put more pressure

And how do you suggest we do that?

 

I for one suggest writhing and making our voices heard in this issue, after all we were able to achieve much more over the years as Diaspora, in so many much more important issues concerning Armenians such as acceptance and recognition of AG, and for this as an example, if for a moment a Nation can/would unite, possibilities are endless, we just have to put our ideological differences aside and devote just fraction of our energy into this cause, and many such issues, I think this dual citizenship is just a test and small but essential hurdle to overcome, thus leading into "unification" and harmony leading "one nation one cause" mentality

[Proud EXPAT]

I made my suggestion, although a little crazy, I still did voice it.

 

I also said the word "somehow", I didn't say I have the solution to this issue. I would hope others will share their thoughts on how it could be done.

 

Edward you mentioned "...if for a moment a Nation can/would unite, possibilities are endless, we just have to put our ideological differences aside and devote just fraction of our energy into this cause..."

 

Now I ask you, how do you suggest we do this? Let me tell you, it is almost impossible for us to put aside our ideological differences and unite. It might be much easier in the diaspora, but not over here.

 

The idiotic British Ambassador made that stupid comment, and some are talking about passing a law forbidding Genocide denial in Armenia, and many are saying our government should be more aggressive and confront the British government, but our government is too chicken shit to do that. They say "we can't risk having bad ties with the UK". GIVE ME A F-ED BREAK. How can our government not even pass such a simple law is beyond me.

Edited April 2, 2004 by Proud EXPAT

[TheArmenianPirate]

My romantic point of view is that Armenian citizenship should be given automatically to any Armenian that survived AG in a special cerimony in every single country. Nice way to rally the respective families. ROA should be seen as caring for the fate of the country and the diaspora, this would be a simple and meaningful way of doing it, and of course very fair.

 

If this day ever happened the way you describe it, I would be euphoric, while a romantic notion indeed, it’s not impossible by any means. Certainly those that survived the Armenian Genocide definitely deserve to gain citizenship without any formal procedures or pre-requisites. And the rest should have to undergo some reasonable requirements. While most Diasporans may not want to permanently move back to our homeland due to their current situation in their state of residence, a good way to allow dual citizenship is using what TAP likes to call, “Cumulative Visit Time Accumulation” (CVTA). For example, a law could be passed stating that if you are of Armenian descent, and make cumulative visits for say 2 years total time spent in Armenia, then a citizenship can be granted. This way, the idea of “dropping everything” and moving just for citizenship will not scare away the mild mannered Diasporan that is not as passionate as yours truly. This cumulative system would allow a “30 something” that’s amidst a career, family, becoming rich/wealthy/powerful, etc, to essentially buy a summer home and visit our homeland a few months in the summer or for however many months he would like. Once the cumulative thresh-hold of 2 years total time spent in RoA has occurred, he could be given the right to citizenship, and for voting rights, another year or so of cumulative visit time could be added.

 

I think by implementing a system such as CVTA would be a win/win situation for all sides. The Diasporan would have a chance to gain his/her rightful citizenship but would not simply be “given” his citizenship, but instead would have to earn it via visits that are added to meet a required thresh-hold. This approach would be inviting to a Diasporan that would like to have citizenship but is not necessarily in a situation in his life where he can just drop everything and move to RoA for that citizenship. At the same time, while he/she is building accumulated time within our homeland, they will be adding revenue via “visitation spending” while there. And ultimately to gain voting rights, the additional cumulative time spent in RoA must be met.

 

For someone like me, that is saving up to in fact buy a secondary home in RoA, this situation would allow for much greater possibilities and flexibility toward earning that citizenship. Say if you have a very successful business that needs you 8 months out of the year, you could potentially use this type of a citizenship approach to take care of your financial issues while using time spent in RoA over say a few months a year as a means to also gain that citizenship that you would like to have. Ultimately with enough accumulated visit time, the voting rights that you want for your homeland can also be had.

 

 

 

 

 

The rest: citizenship but no voting rights unless established in Armenia.

 

Agreed, but what are everyone’s thoughts on a cumulative method of earning voting rights on Armenian soil?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

for that and similar reasons they should start initial drafting and outline conditions such as you mantioned it, just simply ignoring the issue is stupid and counterproductive for ROA

 

I agree strongly. But while the parasitic officials under that regime are enjoying their feast at the cost of people’s well being, ignoring issues will be opted for if the issue at hand doesn’t somehow benefit the government officials on a personal level. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did start Diasporan citizenship offers at price of $49.99 going toward the Robert Kocharian and Company Retirement Fund. There are ways of snuffing out an oppressive regime while not hurting the people TOO MUCH, people will get hurt during a regime change no matter what, whether it's financially, emotionally, physically, etc, but the short and long run must be weighed before pulling the trigger of revolution. Stay tuned for more on this later.

 

 

 

I agree that dual citizenship could be helpful but it must be a qualified dual citizenship. One cannot expect to get a citizenship of a country where he has never visited, for example.

 

Nicely put and very true. Citizenship must be earned, there is no exception to this rule. Otherwise we risk alienating a lot of Hyes that were born and live in RoA. In a sense it would be socially condescending of any Diasporan to not somehow earn his/her citizenship.

 

 

 

Those who spend some time in Armenia should be given citizenship. Also, the rights that come with citizenship should be accompanied with certain obligations, or else it would be unfair to regular citizens who have both rights and duties (such as paying taxes and serving in the army).

 

A progressive way of first earning citizenship then earning voting rights after being a citizen is a great idea. Again, I’d like to get everyone’s thoughts on whether cumulative CVTA method is a good one. What are it’s strengths and weaknesses? Also, please bare in mind that the CVTA way of earning citizenship and ultimately voting rights would ONLY apply to Diasporans, not odars. Odars should and must go through MUCH more stringent methods for citizenship to earn the rights of a citizen. Peronally, the Swiss mentality of “we have enough, we don’t need more citizens of non Swiss descent” is great, we do have enough and growing ever so slowly, but growing never the less, we just need to focus all of the Hye efforts to one epicenter, Armenia.

 

Discuss, discuss, discuss. MORE posts from all 1500 of you, come on, you can do it, send more PMs at the very least! Have a restful Sunday.

 

 

-The Armenian Pirate

Edited April 5, 2004 by TheArmenianPirate

[mx5]

ok TAP here is my opinion but I dont know how much it is tenable:

 

we as a family has decided that (me ,my wife and my 15 years old son )that if we under any sircumstance moved out of the middle east(where we dont feel at home any more)would be ROA.and for that reason we will visit there for the first time in our lives this summer.

 

now to move anywhere you have to start a business,many people adviced me against such a move because there exists an Armenian mafia which will take part of business profit, i dont know how much truth there is in that,guess I cannot find out until I visit there.

 

but on the other hand,I think that, given the chance Diaspora with its vast financial abilities and expertise in free interprise could take control of th economy of the entire Republic in no time at all,thereby gaining the scorn of the locals there, stressing division even more.

 

I think this point should be taken into consideration and foud a fair solution to it.

 

I cannot see myself going there buy a nice house a fancy car start a profitable business or establish a factory while the local Armenian next door enveys me.sure they might profit from my investment but still hasty moves could cause damage...

[gurgen]

We should do the same however I don't see anyone with honesty and brains to replace Kocharian for now.

Armat remember how they got rid of Demrchian? I was in Armenia at the time.

There was great excitement and grief alike, but what did the ROA get in return?

That's right: Robert.

[Twilight Bark]

Citizenship should be awarded to anyone with a reasonable claim to be an Armenian. And that should include the right to purchase property or investment. I'll leave the discussion of what constitutes "a reasonable claim" for another time. And of course there are the issues of taxation and military service. But for the moment I will focus on voting rights. One must acknowledge that voting is about the future, not the past. Therefore, while it is reasonable to expect some residency before such rights are conferred, it should not be so much for the purpose of "earning" the right as it should be for familiarizing oneself with the issues and the conditions ("learning vs earning?" ). In my view, a year would be sufficient. But the important issue about voting is whether the voter has a choice to bail out of the country after a disastrous decision plays itself out. Therefore, the focus should be on how much "stake" the voter has in the responsible running of the country. If someone has dual citizenship and can simply pack and leave to a comfortable life abroad when things turn sour, should he/she be given the right to vote for the the decisions affecting the future of a country in a very difficult part of the world? While I am making my bias apparent regarding the subject, I would like to hear what others have to say.

[Sip]

Citizenship should be awarded to anyone with a reasonable claim to be an Armenian ... I'll leave the discussion of what constitutes "a reasonable claim" for another time.

Well, we already have a draft for the Plege of Loyalty (aka MJ's test for Armeniannes) in place

[15levels]

IHMO : Armenian citizenship should be granted by birth-right. If you have Armenian blood (at least on one side) or born in Armenia you should have the right to be the citizen. Thats how the law functions in the rest of the world, right? How is it that we are different (or should we be?)

[Boghos]

Birth right means that citizenship is given to someone who was born in that place. You were referring to blood right or jus sanguinus, that is according to your ascendency, Germany is probably the best known example of blood right, up to recebtky Turks that were born in German soil were not entitled to citizenship. An obvious case of birth right is the US.

[Vigil]

IHMO : Armenian citizenship should be granted by birth-right. If you have Armenian blood (at least on one side) or born in Armenia you should have the right to be the citizen. Thats how the law functions in the rest of the world, right? How is it that we are different (or should we be?)

 

In my OPINION it would be an insult to Armenians that currently RESIDE in Armenia if citizenship was made accessible to the Diaspora without any restrictions. Citizenship standards should remain high for the Diaspora due to the fact that they do not make an effort to eventually relocate to Armenia so granting them citizenship would not solve the problem.

 

In the case of "otars" they should not yet be granted citizenship and only be given work privileges. Nevertheless, this could change if there was a major migration of "otars" to Armenia. In this case the dynamics of the situation are different, but than citizenship should be only granted to these groups only if they are willing to lobby to be recognized as citizens of Armenia because it would be really premature for Armenia to grant such privileges when our borders are not yet secure. What I mean by that is that citizenship is a crucial factor at this point due to fact that there is a rising Kurdish population and 70 million strong Turkish nation next door that might I remind you people has not had a good relations with Armenia for some time now. What do you think would happen when Armenia becomes the economic leader of that region? Do you think Turks would not be willing to move to Armenia to find jobs? What would happen if Turks out number Armenians? Just in Germany there are already millions of Turks that incidently breed like rabbits.

 

I would like to add that before some of you go ahead and state "well the United States is open minded" I would like to point out that the United States has been in existence for only 300 years, which is not a sufficient amount of time to see if the concept of democracy and equal rights will actually remain. Also the U.S. does not share borders with nations that still have ambitions of touching two coasts. Keep in mind that the population of the U.S. is not comprised of the indigenous population that use to live on this continent prior to it becoming an English colony. Again it would be very premature to compare the U.S. to Armenia or to any nation that has a purely homogenous identity.

 

However, TAP's suggestion of “Cumulative Visit Time Accumulation” (CVTA) would be a great solution to the problem. It would allow the part of the Diaspora that actually give a rats a$$ about Armenia to prove that they are willing to take steps towards its sovereignty and salvation as a nation.

 

I have said it before if you are one of those individuals that are not willing to die for any belief or commonality than you do not deserve the privilege of associating with that particular group or any for that matter. Before some you state that "I am not willing to die for any country" I would like to point that this concept does not apply to just being involved in the defense of nation, but rather the survival of one.

 

Any amount of time set aside for the well being of Armenia should account towards achieving citizenship, however, only if you are at least 1/2, not 1/4, 1/8, or 1/16, but at least 1/2 Armenian.

 

I would like to point out that a good example of this model is Proud EXPAT and I am sure he would feel really insulted if citizenship was reduced to owning just a peice of paper because clearly it means more than that.

 

Excuse the grammer and etc.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Twilight Bark]

Rather than erecting barriers and tests, Armenia should entice the diasporans into getting involved and getting connected to the homeland. Citizenship should guarantee almost all economic rights, but not many political rights. The latter should be gained through a demonstration of interest and opportunity to know the facts on the ground by actually residing in the country for at least a year, rather than simply visiting. And voting should be a right reserved for those with Armenian citizenship only. Dual citizens or those with "permanent residency" in another country should not vote. The country is in a bad neighborhood, and needs to have its future tightly coupled with the personal futures of its voters. It is not Holland. The idea is to attract, engage, but not to give rights that are not coupled with a strong motivation to use them responsibly. Gaining "full" citizenship by accumulating residency via visiting is a bad idea.

 

Putting down a requirement of "at least 1/2 Armenian" is even worse. Perhaps petitions describing "qualifications" could be submitted anonymously to "panels" composed of about a dozen Armenian citizens, who would decide on a case-by-case basis. That would define Armenianness as whatever other Armenians perceive to be "Armenian enough". I think that would be the least bad solution.

[Yerevanian]

Dual citizenship must be granted to those Armenians who lived in Armenia for at least 10 years! Why should anyone who visited Armenia for one time have the right for citizenship? To work here and have great time over there? To buy houses and enjoy your visits? What is the reason one would want Armenian citizenship?

I would say if you really want to become Armenian citizen go live there for 10 years as landed immigrant with the same right I had here, take an exam of the Armenian national language and the second language (might be optional). We all went through it here, we learned their language, their lows, passed the exam and then we were granted the citizenship! And I would put any restrictions, why not.. send your children to army, schools just like any other citizen!

 

Ba che… gnaq menak kangneq aseq “axx Ararat Ararat”. Heto el turq’ eli vra ta, texaciner’ mnan pashtpanelu duq eli paxneq AmeriGa?

[Anoushik]

Dual citizenship must be granted to those Armenians who lived in Armenia for at least 10 years!

Yerevanian, it seems as though you want a revenge. (I'm not saying this based on what you've written here but also what you've written in other threads.) Because you lived through the hard years in Armenia now you expect the other Armenians to go through the same experiences that you had. Why? If every Armenian thought as you did we would soon turn into hateful enemies and that would be the end of Armenians and Armenia. Every Armenian born into this world has had a different fate and experienced different hardships. We have to accept the differences between us and together work towards a better future for the Armenians and Armenia.

 

In the U.S. one is eligible to become an American citizen after only having lived in the country for five years with a green card. Why should it be harder for Armenians wanting to become a citizen in Armenia?

[Yerevanian]

Yerevanian, it seems as though you want a revenge. (I'm not saying this based on what you've written here but also what you've written in other threads.) Because you lived through the hard years in Armenia now you expect the other Armenians to go through the same experiences that you had. Why? If every Armenian thought as you did we would soon turn into hateful enemies and that would be the end of Armenians and Armenia. Every Armenian born into this world has had a different fate and experienced different hardships. We have to accept the differences between us and together work towards a better future for the Armenians and Armenia.

 

In the U.S. one is eligible to become an American citizen after only having lived in the country for five years with a green card. Why should it be harder for Armenians wanting to become a citizen in Armenia?

anoush I wish you could understand......

Edited May 8, 2004 by Yerevanian