bellthecat Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 The Varzahan churches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Is this your web site Bell? The page dedicated to the Varzahan churches states that they were completely demolished sometime between the 1920s and 1950. How was that determined to be the case? What is the information that forms the basis of that statement? Do we know what the stated reason for the demolition was? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Lack of worshipers, I guess! Next thing to do is to ask the Turkish government and the US State Department what happened to the worshipers in the region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Is this your web site Bell? The page dedicated to the Varzahan churches states that they were completely demolished sometime between the 1920s and 1950. How was that determined to be the case? What is the information that forms the basis of that statement? Do we know what the stated reason for the demolition was? Yes it is Steve's site. He has done a marvelous job. --- Phantom, he likes to be either called bellthecat to Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Steve, I know you are dissappointed in Armenians for not showing more interest in their historical and cultural monuments. And you have every right to be. I'm disspointed myself. I think the problem is that we spend so much time on the following problems that we have little time left for the myriad other problems that exist: righting a monumental wrong that was done to our ancestors; ensuring that both Armenia and Karabagh survive and prosper. With respect to the latter, speaking for myself, I have to say that I am constantly inundated with fund raising projects and calls for donations and contributions relating to one need or another in Armenia. And they're all real and they're all deserving of my attention and money. From the outside it may seem to you that Armenians are complacent, but I know of only one other community in this world that pulls together the way we do. An entire country is surviving today largely, if not entirely, because of the Diaspora. But I do want to thank you on behalf of Armenians for taking such a sincere interest in our historical monuments. It is wonderful, for once, to see a non-Armenian take such a leading role in an area that we ourselves have neglected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 I agree with Phantom and I thank Steve for his extensive work, ordinary Armenians here in Diaspora like myself very much like to know what and how I/we can help, maybe you have an idea or guidance in this matter, so far my support as well as our families has been thru mainly with ANCA and Armenia fund. I'll be glad to contribute one way or the other, and yes it is a tragedy whets going on for so long. I will gladly help with any means possible Regards Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph parikian Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Thank you Phantom and..... http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sehrgrosse/large-smiley-052.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Joseph you are acting really silly mate, stop spaming all the treads and be little more mature will you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Is this your web site Bell? The page dedicated to the Varzahan churches states that they were completely demolished sometime between the 1920s and 1950. How was that determined to be the case? What is the information that forms the basis of that statement? Do we know what the stated reason for the demolition was? Methods may vary. Most likely somebody passed by in the 1920's and decribed the place, took a photo, stated its condition, etc. Another person may have passed by in the 1950's, knowing where to look and what to look for, and this person may have found it all gone. As for what can be done... I'm not sure if it is as if such has never been tried before. I remember (though cannot substantiate for - I don't remember source at all) that AGBU sometime in the past called for the recognition of Ani as a World Heritage site. That of course has to be done by Turkey, and it was refused for very obvious political reasons. Those among us who are in good relations/close contact with Armenian communities, institutions, etc., may state such and share with others what these contacts are. Interest among these groups could be tested, and where there is little to show for, that website could be shown. These groups could share the material with their attendants. Ideas could flow. Initiatives could be orchestrated, even coordinated among the groups. Campaigns could be started. This is of course a very optimistic look at things. I say so because I have poked around a bit as to what people feel about this. I'm not going to claim I have failed at orchestrating campaigns - I have in fact failed to raise interest at the very first level. It goes as, "Yeah, I/we'll look at it, I/we'll think about it," and nothing carries on from there. That these are not material happenings and do nothing for the future is no excuse. The genocide is not a material happening, either - or pertinent to Armenia's continuity and future - rather, it is about seeking closure; yet genocide recognition will be sought. The destruction of Armenian monuments in Turkey is not a natural decay process - monuments are kept in good condition in Iran (although that's because there still are Armenian communities there and they are held in esteem). The destruction of Armenian monuments in Turkey is an ongoing aspect of the genocide itself - first you annihilate the creators, then you say "What Armenians?" when their monuments are swept up. The difference between genocide recognition itself and the protection of cultural/historical heritage is that there is no going back when the former is gone. I strongly believe any good site and any good genocide recognition campaign should include the issue of historical monuments. And, even if for nothing else, people care about this kind of stuff today, even if they say the arguments and counter-arguments give them a head-ache and such things happen everywhere across the world and they don't want to know anymore - look at the way people got alerted over Bamiyan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Additionally, it wouldn't take much time to add this issue into any pamphlet, site, whatever. It's not as if you'd be discovering America all over again (doing the actual research or translating into different languages - there's quite a lot done on VirtualAni alone [and VirtualAni alone]). It's there, ready to be used, free for use. One more thing - anyone must have the maturity to ultimately face the truth that RoA isn't being very responsible, either. The quarries across Ani ought to be a testament for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 I apologize Steve maybe you have mentioned this in your web site I didn’t see it; I just wanted to bring this up for everyone to see. If it’s possible to be sad and angry decussated at the same time that’s what I feel now Beshkilise (5 churches) near Digor (to the south of Kars in present day Turkey). Only one of the 5 original churches survive. the others were blown up by the Turkish army in the 1960s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Why would they leave that one church standing while blowing up the rest? It doesn't make sense, but I guess they were target practicing. Where did you get that picture? It's such a pity they all seemed to be in good shape. There isn't anything that can be done to save the rest I suppose. I visited Turkey for the very first time last month for about 2 weeks. Though I went there for business with a large delegation and there wasn't any time for sightseeing, I would say it was rather interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 (edited) Why would they leave that one church standing while blowing up the rest? It doesn't make sense, but I guess they were target practicing. Where did you get that picture? It's such a pity they all seemed to be in good shape. There isn't anything that can be done to save the rest I suppose. I visited Turkey for the very first time last month for about 2 weeks. Though I went there for business with a large delegation and there wasn't any time for sightseeing, I would say it was rather interesting. most probably picture was taken before 1960, with so much government restrictions I hardly would know in what shape those churches are, maybe Steve can answer that he has been in turkey many times, and here is the Webpage Edited March 3, 2004 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Thanks for the reply, though I don't know who Steve is. I had a look at that site. The idea of recreating destroyed churches in Armenia seems a little bit crass and far fetched. But a miniature city with perfect models situated in a park or the like would be a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 (edited) The idea is to raise an awareness whats going on in Turkey and its a cultural genocide, and I'm sure with enough voices heard maybe situation can be reversed, with UNECSO and similar organizations monuments can be saved and restored back or close to its original shape. I failed to understand last part of you comment, care to expand? Edited March 3, 2004 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 I was referring to the idea at the link you gave me. That person was proposing to recreate all churches that no longer exist true to scale on Armenian territory. That idea sounds too kitsch to me. A miniature version with perfect replica models seems on the other hand a very good idea. I've been to several of them in the Netherlands, Italy, Austria, Indonesia and recently in Turkey which was quite impressive. Our Turkish hosts held a dinner there one evening. I can give you some links to look at: http://www.minimundus.at/ http://www.miniaturk.com.tr http://www.madurodam.nl http://www.italiainminiatura.com http://www.swissminiatur.ch/ie/tourPartners.asp I seriously doubt that anything can be done about those monuments. I don't want to sound pessimistic, but the Turks can't even take care of their own buildings because of lack of financial resources or interest. Preserving whatever is left of Armenian buildings is even more unlikely. Applying pressure can only help if UNESCO drops Turkish monuments from the World Heritage Site and international foundations withold funds until and only if Ani is safeguarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 most probably picture was taken before 1960, with so much government restrictions I hardly would know in what shape those churches are, maybe Steve can answer that he has been in turkey many times, and here is the Webpage Edward - http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showt...indpost&p=88470 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Hi Bell... was it last year that you had a clandestine visit to ANI and did your reports....where do i find your travelogues ? please direct me to those articles. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Excuse me? If I may beg your pardon, what is a *clandestine* visit to Ani? Or was it to A.N.I.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted March 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 I apologize Steve maybe you have mentioned this in your web site I didn’t see it; I just wanted to bring this up for everyone to see. If it’s possible to be sad and angry decussated at the same time that’s what I feel now Beshkilise (5 churches) near Digor (to the south of Kars in present day Turkey). Only one of the 5 original churches survive. the others were blown up by the Turkish army in the 1960s Yes, it is on the website. http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/khtzkonk/khtzkonk.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted March 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 Excuse me? If I may beg your pardon, what is a *clandestine* visit to Ani? Or was it to A.N.I.? A "clandestine" visit to Ani is one where you hide the real reasons for going there. I.E. you go there in the guise of and, when in the company of others, behave like a typical emply-headed tourist. Some of my real reasons for visiting Ani were: to try and see as much of the city as is physically possible in order to assess its curent condition and continuing destruction; to discreetly observe the various Turkish "excavations"; to attempt to turn some of the amateurish drawings that Karamagarali calls survey drawings into something useable; to rescue important objects from the oblivion of the turkish excavators' rubbish tips and to hide those objects in other parts of the city in the hope that should better times come they can be re-revealed; to talk with the French excavators and try and encourage them to say what they think rather than what diplomacy makes them say; to explore as much of Ani as possible in as detailed a way as possible and as a result discover lost things like the tombstone of catholicos Barseg; to search for some 40 sites marked on Marr's excavation map that have since been all but forgotten about and then make notes on their condition; to make notes of all the things that need to be photographed should photography be possible again. Steve Section of the message removed - Azat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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