Armenian-Turkish dialog

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by raffiaharonian:
However RofA. should be very carefull and very well prepared. The foxes of Ankara are very well trained and know how to crowl.
R.of A. should learn its lessons from the dialog between Greece and Turkey. There are very important conclusions that can be drawn.

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Raffi,

No question about it.

I also think that the subject of the dialog has to be carefully chosen. The subject doesn't have to be whether the Genocide has occurred or not. The subject has to be how do we go about it from this point on.

[Guest]

I think most Armenians, and especially diaspora Armenians seem to ignore that the fact that not sitting down with Turkey means playing into their hands.

 

Why ? Because this shows that our need as a people to deal with the Genocide has not yet achieved a degree of rationality. I couldn´t care less about the Turks, but not being able to deal with this issue and other issues is giving in to the criminals. accepting that they caused such damage that after almost one hundred years we are still fixated with Genocide. I am by no means saying that this is not of paramount importance, genocide recognition, that is. But we need to face it with Turkey.

[Guest]

for your info Turkey was the first modern state (ancient nomads, the arabs and Mongols their relatives had build its basics already) to commit genocide, they brutally murdered over 2 million Aryan Armenians.

Hitler has learnt his barbarity from Ottomans and young Turks.

 

As Göring said in the court: " Hitler said to me, don't be afraid about the genocide we will commit, no one has ever punished the Turks for their genocide on the Armenians, so we will not be the second one either".

[Guest]

One thing I can say....

LONG LIVE FRANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

It is not a secret that majority of Armenians are extremely anti-Turkish. We simply hate Turkish people. We are not simply against the Turkish Republic and it’s past and present policies, we are against Turks and their existence. We remind myself of Arabs, who want to throw out Jews to the Mediterranean. Deep, deep, deep in the bottom of our hearts we want to kick Turks back to Central Asia. I’d like to know whether the members of forum have any anti Turkish feelings. Being a grandson of a genocide survivor, I realize that their ancestors have killed many of my relatives, yet I don’t think we, Armenians, can live with the past memories forever. Don’t you think it’s time to realize, that what’s been done is done, there is no way to change the past (when Ashot Bleyan put across this idea a few years ago in Yerevan, he was chastised and classified as a traitor). Instead of wasting our energy on anti-Turkish propaganda we can aim it toward strengthening the economy of Armenia. It seems like anti-Turkishness is one of the uniting forces for Armenians. As for me, I have had many Turkish friends (even dated a Turkish girl). Yesterday I came across a great Turkish guy from Ankara, and never ever it crossed my mind that he is an enemy. He was the saxophonist at the House of Blues and was an extremely talented guy. Don’t you guys think it’s time to end our anti-Turkishness, and become a good neighbor?

[Guest]

I just have one comment on the subject of Bleyan. It was not what he said about the Genocide that ticked people against him. He was not the first person to come up with that idea. He was just very cynical about it. Also, it was his persona, his lack of credibility, and his obnoxious hunger for power and money that polarized many people against him.

 

Other than this, I think everything you say is just common sense, though I think the recognition of the Genocide by Turkey (and I wouldn't care in a direct sense of the word about the recognition by others) has to be pursued for political purposes.

[Guest]

Turkey Says Seeking Better Ties With Armenia

 

ANKARA (Reuters)--Turkey is exploring ways to improve ties with neighbour

Armenia in the hope of heading off Western parliamentary resolutions accusing

Turks of massacring Armenians 85 years ago, a Turkish official said on

Wednesday.

Ankara believes Yerevan enjoys strong influence over the Armenian Diaspora

that has promoted resolutions in the US Congress as well as the Italian,

French

and European parliaments.

The administration gave consent for a plan to win over Armenia,'' the

official

told Reuters. ``A Turkish step to drain the swamp instead of killing the

mosquito is the right thing to do.''

Armenia, a landlocked country now heavily dependent on Russian help, would

benefit greatly from a freer opening to markets in Turkey and beyond.

A Turkish plan to win Armenian cooperation would need Armenian readiness. The

Turkish side had begun looking into this through low-level diplomatic

contacts,

the second official said.

"This plan has two parts. The first part is about what can be done to improve

ties with Armenia and, the second, to provide a proper structure to handle the

Genocide issue," he said. The official added that historians and not

politicians should discuss the issue.

Much could depend on resolution of the Artsax conflict between Armenia and

Turkish ally, Azerbaijan.

Turkey has no diplomatic relations with Yerevan. Last year, when a US

House of

Representatives pannel approved a Genocide motion, it stopped giving visas to

Armenian citizens at the border, obliging them to apply to Turkish consulates

abroad.

[Guest]

Turkish General Says EU States Don't Want Turkey

 

ANKARA (Reuters)--A senior member of Turkey's influential military said on

Thursday no European Union country sincerely supported Turkey's ambitions to

join the bloc, according to Anatolian news agency.

Military Academies Chief Commander General Nahit Senogul said the EU's

reluctance to guarantee Turkey a say in the decision-making processes of a

planned European defense force that will use NATO assets proved a lack of

goodwill.

Last month Turkey blocked a basic agreement between NATO and the EU on a

planned EU rapid reaction force, saying Ankara would not retain enough control

over decisions that could affect its own security and involve its army. "Some

EU member countries are prejudiced against Turkey and have always been

involved

in the counter-Turkey movement," Senogul told a military symposium on Europe.

"Some countries do not actually favor Turkish membership. Some countries

instead prefer close cooperation between the EU and Turkey rather than

admitting Turkey to the Union," he said citing France and Germany as leading

that point of view. "The rest of the countries support Turkish accession only

in appearance. It is impossible to name a country that sincerely supports

Turkey's membership of the European Union," he said.

Turkey won candidacy status in 1999 but the EU has laid out a range of

political and economic changes it wants to see before Ankara can start

membership negotiations. Turkey is due to publish its own EU National

Programme, a manifesto of the steps it plans to take, in the coming days. The

EU's Accession Partnership Accord, published late last year, caused anger in

Turkey because of references to Cyprus and territorial disputes with Greece in

the Aegean.

The army, which has directly or indirectly toppled four governments since

1960, has said it is in favor of EU membership in principle but it balks at

concessions it sees as threatening national security.

A key issue for Europe is Turkey's human rights record and the position of

its

12 million Kurds, around 20 percent of the population. Turkey bans

broadcasting

and education in the Kurdish language on the grounds they could foster

separatism. But since the capture of guerrilla leader Abdullah Ocalan in 1999,

a 16-year campaign of violence has largely ceased and there has been some

discussion of Kurdish language rights. The army has made clear it resists

lifting the ban. But the head of the domestic security service MIT caused

surprise recently, suggesting Kurdish broadcasting should be sanctioned.

"In the scope of individual rights and liberties within the Accession

Partnership Accord, under the headlines 'cultural rights', 'native language

broadcasting' or 'education rights' for our citizens of Kurdish origin...they

want our country to be divided," Halil Simsek, another general speaking at the

symposium, was quoted as saying by Anatolian news agency.

[Guest]

Oskanian Welcomes Turkish Calls For Warming of Relations

 

YEREVAN (Noyan Tapan). Armenia unequivocally believes that Turkey's

activity in

establishing diplomatic relations with Armenia can be welcomed, said Foreign

Minister Vartan Oskanian. The minister's comments are in response to recent

calls being made in Turkish circles for better relations with Armenia.

He mentioned the submission of a package of documents to the Turkish

government which contains proposals for the establishment of diplomatic

relations with Armenia. "We are welcoming this approach, and I think Turkey

will take the right step," Oskanian said.

The minister added that the issue is being actively discussed in the Turkish

press as well. In particular, the issue of Armenian-Turkish relations being

dictated by Azerbaijan is being questioned.

"We think the settlement of the Genocide issue with Turkey can be reached

once

diplomatic relations between the two countries are established," Oskanian

said.

[Guest]

TURKEY WANTS TO NORMALIZE ITS RELATIONS WITH ARMENIA

11 Jan. 2001

 

 

Turkey is in search of a new policy in order to normalize its relations with

Armenia amid the moves to recognize the so-called Armenian genocide in

various parliaments around the world. A report presented by the Turkish

Foreign Ministry and submitted to the government, states the normalization

of relations between Turkey and Armenia would be beneficial in preventing

similar activities by the Armenian diaspora. The issue of Nagorno-Artsax

has also been a focal point. Diplomatic sources said the dispute over the

region should be resolved. /All papers/

 

YILMAZ IN BERLIN

 

Source: Ministry of Foreign Affairs Republic of Turkey.

[Guest]

ARMENIA THIS WEEK

Friday, January 12, 2001

 

TURKEY CONSIDERS TALKS WITH ARMENIA ON ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

 

Faced with increased momentum in Europe for legislative reaffirmation of the Armenian Genocide, Turkish officials said this week that Ankara will open a direct diplomatic channel with Yerevan to discuss the issue. Turkish and Western media quoted an unnamed senior diplomat from the Turkish Foreign

Ministry as saying that his country's leaders "gave consent to win over Armenia." It was not immediately clear what practical steps Turkey is planning to take.

 

Turkey has refused to establish diplomatic relations with Armenia since it achieved independence in 1991. The late Turkish President Turgut Ozal introduced an economic blockade against Armenia in 1993 to help Azerbaijan's war effort in Karabagh. Ankara has since refused to normalize relations

with Armenia.

 

Armenian Foreign Minister Vardan Oskanian welcomed the Turkish offer to hold talks. Oskanian reportedly views the move as an indication that the Turkish government now realizes that the issue of the Armenian Genocide cannot be dealt with by a policy of denial and without improving relations with

Armenia. The minister again noted that normalization of Armenian-Turkish relations would greatly improve the overall political climate in the region.

 

However, Turkish Foreign Ministry Undersecretary Faruk Logoglu said this week that creating diplomatic relations with Armenia is not on Turkey's agenda. The proposed diplomatic contact may therefore be a part of the overall Turkish policy to soft-pedal the Armenian Genocide issue. As a

Turkish diplomat put it graphically to the Reuters correspondent, this "step to drain the swamp instead of killing the mosquito is the right thing to do."

 

Meanwhile, the Foreign Affairs Committee of the French National Assembly voted this week to send the Senate bill recognizing the Armenian Genocide to the floor of the National Assembly. The full Parliament will vote on it ext week. The French Senate passed the resolution two months ago.

 

(Sources: Reuters 1-10; Turkish Daily News 1-11; Noyan Tapan 1-12; Snark

1-12)

[Guest]

ARF Bureau Statement

 

YEREVAN--On January 16, the ARF Bureau released a statement in response to

recent calls for dialogue and normalization of relations between Armenia and

Turkey. The statement finds the preconditions being placed on Armenia by the

Turkish government inadmissible. Concessions on the recognition of the

Genocide

and the status of Artsakh are not to be compromised, reads the statement. The

ARF does not reject open dialogue between the neighboring countries as long as

Turkish intentions are genuine and not led by their desire to put an end to

the

Armenian government's policy of having the Genocide recognized by the

international community. Turkey' s aspirations toward joining the European

Union should also not be a factor in their desire to normalize relations with

Armenia. The statement urges the Armenian government to maintain its current

policy of working toward recognition of the Genocide, and warns of hidden

Turkish motives. The interests of the Diaspora are also taken into account.

Turkey's role in the Artsax peace process is rejected in the statement since

Turkey cannot and will not be considered a neutral official party to the

conflict..

[Guest]

In a way it would not hurt Armenia to develop a more cunning, sly attitude, if talks with Turkey would lead to a substantial improvement of the condition Armenia is currently in. I am not implying love of Turks or forgetting anything. I'm just saying that if establishing diplomatic relations with Turkey and neighboring countries would cause things to become normal in Armenia it should be done. Unfortunately, right now Armenia does not have any power to do anything and the world at large does not care about the problems of a few million people. Armenia's main priority right now should be strengthening of the Armenian state. Once the Armenian state is strong the Turkish problem can be adressed to the world from a much more effective standpoint. It seems as if in the year 2001 Turkey is still a main obstacle in Armenia's way to success. Peace may be the most affective way in getting rid of this obstacle. Ironically, the first step in kicking Turkey's a** may just be peace with Turkey (at least till we become strong). We can't let Turkey cause further damage to Armenia by driving people out of our homeland through its blockade. I realize there are many sides to the issue though and things are not as black or white.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
I think the biggest obstacle in Armenia's way have always been the Armenians.

As to becoming strong, my question is to become strong so that to do what? If it is what you say, why would Turkey want Armenia to become strong? Wouldn't than what it does now, or even worse, look like a legitimate policy from their side?

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I was assuming that Turkey is ready to make peace and cooperate as long as Armenia puts aside the genocide issue. They seem to be saying they are ready to lift their blockade and do what is best for the region should Armenia put aside the past. Of course this is only how they want to appear. In reality their intentions could be otherwise.

[Guest]

I don't think that Turkey's stance towards Armenia is due to our expectation from them to recognize the Genocide. If that was all, I think they would've recognized the Genocide quite some time ago. I think the problem is in what's, supposedly, coming next to their recognition.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
I don't think that Turkey's stance towards Armenia is due to our expectation from them to recognize the Genocide. If that was all, I think they would've recognized the Genocide quite some time ago. I think the problem is in what's, supposedly, coming next to their recognition.

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Yes. And in order to prevent those potential consequences they don't want to recognize it, and want Armenia to drop the issue. If Armenia was to drop the issue do you think Turkey would start cooperating fully in all aspects (economically, politically) to the point where Armenia would benefit a significant amount? That's what they seem to say but maybe I misinterpreted.

[Guest]

I am not sure if there are real consequences, but definitely there is a perception of a further hustle. The official demands of Turkey for the establishment of diplomatic and other relations with Armenia are two: drop the charges of the Genocide, and remove the forces from the "occupied" Azerbaijani territories.

 

The first demand is, obviously, not going to be satisfied, and it is , in my view, the only way Armenia may pressure Turkey to a negotiating table. Removing the forces is an issue between Armenia and Azerbaijan, in reality, and in the opinion of some high ranking (former) official of the Armenian government, this request is a mistake put forward by Turkey in early '90s, which their officials quitely recognize. But now that they have put it forward, they have trapped themselves, and cannot walk away due to their internal public opinion. This issue can be resolved only when there is a progress in Armenian-Azerbaijani relations (regardless of pulling the forces out), and Azerbaijan itself urges Turkey, to lift the blockade, so that they are also relived from the blockade imposed on them by Armenia. I think this is possible. But at this time, it is a wait and see game - who will run out of patience. There is an opinion that Armenia cannot survive long, thus will comply.

 

For this reason, for example, I think that Armenian economy has to be developed in a way that Turkey's or Azerbaijan's blockades become irrelevant, i.e. Armenia doesn't really need their roads. At least Armenia has to take such coarse, and demonstrate that it can survive even without Turkey and Azerbaijan. It would mean at least tor a decade or so to walk away from the heavy industrial orientation, which has been characteristic of Armenia's Soviet era economy, and development of less demanding, in this sense, sectors of economy. It also may be achieved by guaranteeing flow of financial capital without necessarily relaying on the local economy. This requires creative and visionary approach from the Armenian Government, which so far has been absent. The only indication of this kind of possibility was the assignment of Armen Sargissyan - the for mer ambassador of Armenia in UK, on the position of Prime Minister, but he was "choked," and not allowed to work, as I recall.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by BTac:

It seems as if in the year 2001 Turkey is still a main obstacle in Armenia's way to success. Peace may be the most affective way in getting rid of this obstacle. Ironically, the first step in kicking Turkey's a** may just be peace with Turkey (at least till we become strong).

---

I think the biggest obstacle in Armenia's way have always been the Armenians.

As to becoming strong, my question is to become strong so that to do what? If it is what you say, why would Turkey want Armenia to become strong? Wouldn't than what it does now, or even worse, look like a legitimate policy from their side?

[Guest]

To be honest, it would be better if Armenia move on and start nagotiating with Turkey. It will be very good for us economically. However, my pride inside me tells the opposite: they should recognise and beg on the knees and ask for forgiveness! I totally support Dashnaktsutyun Party when they roughly rejected any dialogs between Turkey and Armenia. Who are Turks??? I've seen many turks nowadays, all the youth. I think we should give them orders what to do but not they to close air corridors and things like that!!!

 

Believe me one day it will happen.

If there were 60 million armenians living in Armenia (same as turkey), there would be no Turkey present day. E.g. Put 100 Armenians and 100 Turks in one room. 80 Turks will run away, 20 will be dead :) I think we've learned a lot from the genocide.

 

Artur.

P.S. If everyone of us have lets say 20 children we will make 60 mil in one generation. :)

[Guest]

I suspect not all of you belong to ASALA or for that matter backstabbers like your ancestors. To side with the Russians and kill helpless children, babies and denying these facts show the real character of armenians, a character without dignity and honor. No matter what you people say, you cannot distort the facts or history with your senseless, false and idiotic propaganda.

[Guest]

Wow! Look at the type of present we got in this forum. The Sharp Tongue, the Hair of Oppressed, the Voice of Turkey.

 

 

Look Raven, this thread is a devoted to a dialog. If you have any qualified arguments to make - go on. But please have the manners to knock the door first, and then, when entering, say Hello, just for the sake of building a proper image for yourself.

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 29, 2001).]

[Guest]

Look mr moderator,

 

How do you know I am Turkish? Stop making assumptions. Yes I am Turkish. A Turk whose ancestors were slaughtered by Armenians. If this is a free forum, you need to respect the opinions of others. I am sure you will not delete nor stop me from posting on this message board. If you do, then that will show that Armenians do not tolerate opinions and expressions of others. This will really show, not how terrible the Turks are, but how horrible the Armenians really are. So i suggest you do not delete my messages.

[Guest]

Raven,

 

Apparently I knew you were, and I was not wrong. Why are you questioning my correct guess.

 

Yes, this is a free forum, and we encourage people of all nations to engage in a dialog with us, as long as they have elementary manners. We will not delete nor stop you. We will encourage you to speak out. And you don’t have to be overly defensive and hedge yourself in advance from our subsequent actions or comments. If you feel the confidence in expressing your feelings, go right ahead. Only have manners. I think I also may find several questions to ask you on behalf of my ancestors. But all in due time.

 

But before I do so, I would like to ask you what is the purpose of your visit to our forum, and what are you trying to accomplish?

[Guest]

Originally posted by RAVEN:

Look mr moderator,

 

How do you know I am Turkish?

 

 

From the smell!

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by gamavor:

How do you know I am Turkish?

From the smell![/b]

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That is a good one!

Now, do you see Mr. Turk that we Armenians have a sense of humor. Also, Raven it would be nice to hear from you your objective of joying Armenian forum.