Armenian-Turkish dialog

[Guest]

I joined this forum to see how you people blame and put down the Turks. How much you loathe us and how much you will love to gain the lands in the east of Turkey. Is it not true that the whole Armenian agenda was to acquire the lands in the East of Turkey with the help of the Western powers and Russia while the Ottomans were at war. Is this not the truth? Also, i would like to state that, lot of Turks, Kurds and Armenians died in WWI, but there was no genocide. If you think so, then there was genocide of Turks too. I mean, annihilating babies and helpless people would be considered genocide right. I mean Armenians and Russians made an excellent plan to eradicate the turks and the kurds, a mere systematic cleasing. What do you think? I am not here to post impetuous comments or call names, rather, i am here to convey my opinions and know why so much hatred. When will armenians look to the future for economic stability. I like to reiterate that what happened was not all delightful in history...take care

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by RAVEN:
Also, i would like to state that, lot of Turks, Kurds and Armenians died in WWI, but there was no genocide. If you think so, then there was genocide of Turks too.

---

Raven,

So, how would you explain that from 2.5 million Armenian populations of historic Western Armenia or (presently Easter Turkey)aren't left a soul? How come, now in cities like Van, Kars, Sasun, Mush, etc, which were 100% populated by Armenians before 1915, now 100% populated by Turks and Kurds? Why do you think the survived million of Armenians left everything they had and run for their lives?

You know I would be glad if back in 1915 it were the way you are saying that Turks had been massacred by Russian or Armenians and Western Armenian would have been now populated by Armenians and be part of Armenia. And the Turkey would have been asking Armenia to recognize Turkish genocide. This would have been perfect, but unfortunately it is the opposite!

[Guest]

I think that your tone has improved, though I am ready to question at least few of your statements. But that's OK. We can discuss them as the day unbundles.

 

It makes no sense for us to prove you whether Ottoman Turkey has committed Genocide or not. We have no questions regarding it, nor does the absolute majority of the Humanity. Besides, it has been proven over and over in various international academic and political institutions. We can help you to get familiarized with them.

 

In my view, the recognition of Turkey's committing of a Genocide is Turkey's own problem, and the problem of Turkish people - it is an issue of your own morality, and issue of your ability to put behind the shameful chapters of your own history.

 

Since I cannot give you an overwhelming answer right now, and perhaps our potential discussion may go in many possible directions, and become uncontrollable due to the sensitivity of the issue, I would like to ask you few questions so that to rout the discussion towards a contractive path.

 

1. What does constitute Genocide according to you (you have claimed that what has happened to Armenians was not a Genocide)?

2. Who has committed Genocide against the Turks, on whose behalf, when, where, and what are your sources?

3. Why do you bring the issue of the Armenian economy of modern days up, while discussing the issue of the Genocide? Is it a threat, or is there a direct link?

 

These questions are just the beginning. If you could answer them, I hope we can better understand where are you comeing from, and what is your purpose. This is not a test, but rather pursues a purpose of identification whether we are trying to accomplish something positive or we are trying just to exchange slenders and slurs. In the first case, we would welcome the dialog, in the second case, I would say, we have enough problems of our own, and I don't see anything which might stimulate us to engage in discussions with you.

 

Hope this is acceptable.

 

P.S. By the way, you may check the following Web site for the definition of Genocide: http://www.tufts.edu/departments/fletcher/...texts/BH225.txt

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 30, 2001).]

[Guest]

The number of Armenian killed has been changed many times, i have heard 1.5, 2.0. and 2.5 million. According to what sources has this been established through. The number has been exaggerated, at the time there was not 2 million armenians in the east. What constitutes a genocide? Genocide is a systematic killing of certain race. This did not take place. In addition, you as others know Turks were massacred at the hands of the treasonous Armenians and Russians, and you cannot deny that. I have heard many stories and I am especially sure you have too. In essence, yes more Armenians might have died than Turkish, and because of this you are trying to blame the Turks for genocide, not so fast my friend. Does the number of dead decide what a genocide is? Does it matter, if 50 armenians died and 25 turks died? If it is genocide for one, than same holds true for the other side. In reality, according to many books and reports, more muslims were killed by the Armenians and Russians and these include turks, kurds and others.

The so-called Armenian genocide is creation of west which then was pursued by armenian propaganda for world to recognize. Why? It makes utter sense that West sided with the armenians in wwI, using Armenians to revolt against the Turks. Why? Well, to carve up the Ottoman Empire and make it ever so weak and get their hands on oil. A very logical argument. ANother reason, the hatred against the Muslims, this is a fact that has been around since Islam was created.

Talking about massacres, you cannot deny what ASALA have done either. Armenia constantly and still support terrorist activities, for example the PKK. This really shows how the Armenians lack honor, dignity or integrity. I even question if they even had those great characteristics from the beginning.

But you know what? You are going to have your version of history and i will have mine. But i sincerely believe that Armenians tried and still trying to distort history. It is a very severe crime to blame a whole nation as committing genocide.

[Guest]

sorcerer,

 

the info you have provided that east of Turkey was all Armenian is subjective. How can so many muslim die at the hands of Armenians then? You answer me!!!Denial, you are the denialist, why don't you look at history again and not what Armenian gov't fabricates. Armenians have time and time have distorted history. Your arguments are lame and mundane and has no importance what so ever. I really do not want to get into it with you, it will be waste of my precious time. Lies, propaganda, hatred, dishonesty have infested you and many Armenians. Once again, it is a grave crime to commit a nation on falsified fabricated documents. Good day....

[Guest]

As far as numbers are concerned I have only heard of 1.5 million, even though there could be exagerrations. The number of Armenians that died is not nearly as compelling as the percentage that died. Even RAVEN claimed that at that time there hardly were 2 million Armenians living there. 1.5 million out of 2 million is 75%. Even if only 1 million Armenians died that would have been 50%. Regardless of how the numbers are twisted 50% to 75% of the Armenian world population was killed. Can you imagine a nation losing 50% to 75% of its people within a few years?

[Guest]

Raven, you bring popular arguments of Turkish governments; it wasn’t a genocide, Armenians killed Turks, etc. Let’s define what is genocide. According to UN convention, posted in MJ’s link the following constitute genocide:

 

(a) Killing members of the group;

( Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 

I think if you go down the list you can check all of them. It’s not a matter of how many Armenians were killed, 300,000 as Ottoman government claims or 1,5 million as Armenians claim. Any single human life has a value. Killing helpless people for no reason is just inhumane.

 

Let me go down the list and try to answer some of the questions you have raised. First of all, West did not side with Armenians, but Armenians sided with the West. I personally don’t think that was one of the wisest choices we have made, but certainly it didn’t give Ottoman government a pretense to systematically annihilate and relocate the whole Armenian population residing in Eastern Ottoman Empire. Are you trying to justify the killing and relocation of the entire Armenian population? It’s the same thing as justifying killing, which I don’t think can be justified under any circumstances. It’s a moral issue. Do you think killing is a right way of settling disputes? I personally don’t.

 

Let’s clarify the issue of PKK that you brought up. I personally support them. They fight for the liberation of their people. Why is southeast Turkey the least developed part of the country, is it because it’s populated mainly by Kurds? Is there discriminatory allocation of economic resources in Turkey? Have you ever asked yourself about reasons why PKK exists. I think because Kurds think they can do better on their own. Get an October 92 (I think, I am not sure) of National Geographic and read about Kurds and their living conditions in Turkey. You won’t be so surprised about the existence of separatist movement.

 

Regarding ASALA, my Turkish friend, I don’t justify their actions. I feel sorry for the families that lost their smart sons and daughters. Please accept the apologies from us. When I go to church next time I will light a candle for their souls. I think you should understand that activities of ASALA were from frustration, not revenge. It was from the feeling of being helpless and the need to be heard.

 

I hope my Turkish friend I was able to give you the answers to some of the questions you have raised. By the way we don’t hate you. Hatred is for the weak people. We are the first Christian people and know how to forgive; yet we never forget.

[Guest]

Raven,

 

I am trying to still see what is your underlying statement, or what is it based on.

 

We, Armenians, with the rest of the civilized world, hold the government of Ottoman Turkey responsible for the Genocide of Armenians. I would like to know who does Raven hold responsible for the alleged Genocide of the Turks? I have also not received an answer to the question who has subjected the Turks to a Genocide, where, when and what sources is this information based on?

 

We are not talking here about Turks killing Armenians. That has taken place throughout the seven centuries of the Turkish yoke. We are talking here about the systematic and organized effort of then Turkish government to resolve once and forever the “Armenian headache.” But recall that Armenians were not the invaders of Turkish lands, but the opposite.

 

I also would like to put one very significant fact in context: the Genocide of Armenians has occurred not just in the eastern provinces of Ottoman Turkey, but also in Western, and the casualties in Western provinces have been much more substantial, since it has been more difficult for them to organize self-defense, or to retreat to Eastern Armenia.

 

If one can rightly assert that the Eastern Armenians have sided with the Russians, this type of claim about the Armenian population of the Western provinces of Ottoman Turkey would be total falsification. In fact, Western Armenian subjects of Ottoman Empire have fatefully fought against the Russians in the structures of Ottoman Army. Even there, many Armenian brigades have been disarmed by the Turkish superiors, and have been destroyed. Additionally, as a rule, human waves of poorly armed Armenian detachments of Turkish army (while the other detachments have been armed properly) have been thrown into the battlefield, so that to be destroyed by the Russians.

 

A couple of other comments: Armenians have served fatefully (and wrongly in my view) their Turkish invaders for about seven centuries. They have built Turkey, they have run its economy, they have given a human face to the most inhumane and rootless empire in the history of the world. Don’t take my words, but read Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, for example. They have plugged into the task of creation of Turkish culture from nothing - at the expense of Armenian culture. They have also been at the forefronts of the revolution of the Young Turks, frequently sacrificing their security, and the security of the loved ones, to save their revolutionary brothers of Turkish origin - those who would come later to systematically annihilate Armenians.

 

Additionally, the Armenian massacres by Turks have not started during the WW1. The first large-scale massacre of Armenians in Turkey has taken place in 1890's - in Adana. There was no suspicion of Russian orientation at that time. In fact, it was a massacre organized with the purpose of testing the reaction of European countries, with the purpose of expending the systematic annihilation of Armenians later on.

 

Additionally, the spirit of siding with the Russians has been generated by Ottoman Turkey. The Armenian agenda of the first half and the early second half of the 19th century has not gone beyond the requests of cultural reforms, which subsequent Sultans have promised to implement (see the San Stefano and Berlin conferences). However no promises have been kept, and the conditions of Armenians have gotten much worse.

 

Additionally, Armenians of the Eastern provinces of the Ottoman Empire have been living on that territory for more than 2000 years. That they would have liked to liberate their lands from the Turkish yoke should be pretty natural. Arabs, Serbs, etc, have succeeded, and we also had that right. The revolts are characteristic to all empires. There is nothing strange or illegitimate about the Armenian revolt of the Eastern provinces of Turkey. That kind of revolt is justified even in modern day conventions accepted by all members of the UN, including Turkey. However, while one can recognize the interest of empires to suppress the revolts, the systematic attempt of annihilation of an entire nation on such scale, including the children, women and elderly, is an unprecedented phenomenon in the history of empires.

 

Finally, as I have said before, we in this forum have no vested interest in persuading you in something, which is self-evident. As I have claimed before, the recognition of the basic fact of the Armenian Genocide is an issue of your own personal and national morality. If you can recognize it, and put it behind – good for you. That will only help us to build healthy relations. You may also continue to deny, and thus to continue to be a participant of the Genocide. That is also up to you. If you have any credible arguments to provide, beyond the absurd logic “If Turks have committed Genocide, Armenians have done it, too,” I would still be eager to hear.

 

 

And less words we use, more conscisely perhaps we can express ourselves. So, I suggest you to move now into the domain of logic and facts.

 

P.S. I think a partial answer to your question as how come Muslims have outnumberd Armenians in eastern provinces can be found in on of the forms of Genocide that Turks have subjected Armenians throughout centuries. It is formulated in the paragraph e) of the definition of the Genocide. Anather explanaition is this: one doesn't have to be very skillfull to produce a lot of children. That's is not difficult. The dificulty is in raising these children. Now, when you live at the expense of other nations, by ploundering their wealth, and confoscating the outcome of their labor, you decellerate the growth rate of these nations, but accelerate yours. I hope this is easy to accept.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 31, 2001).]

[Guest]

Raven,

 

 

You did not answer any of the questions I have posted previously. Please do not self repeat. If you repeat a lie many times, it will not become a truth, denial is not a solution. Sooner or later Turkey will recognize Armenian genocide, at least it should do it with dignity, you cant run from facing the facts.

 

Please answer the questions I have previously posted. I want to hear the opinion of a common Turk like you.

 

[This message has been edited by surorus (edited January 31, 2001).]

[Guest]

All the information you have conveyed in the last 4 to 5 posts are biased. It all comes from what Armenians and western countries have fabricated. This is the last post, i am not wasting my time here with such denialist people; people filled with hatred, anger....Quoth the Raven nevermore.....

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by RAVEN:
All the information you have conveyed in the last 4 to 5 posts are biased. It all comes from what Armenians and western countries have fabricated. This is the last post, i am not wasting my time here with such denialist people; people filled with hatred, anger....Quoth the Raven nevermore.....

---

Raven,


I am not surprised; it takes courageous people to be able to face facts. You are simply unable to make up faulty answers to any of the critical questions that members asked. If you honestly, answer those questions, you will conclude that, yes, Ottoman Turks did commit genocide, yes, Armenians were systematically massacred, yes, the denial only demonizes present day Turkey. And speaking of bias my friend, it looks like you came up with an agenda and convinced yourself that Ottoman Turks did not commit genocide and have put yourself in a hard position because you got no evidence, no sense making argument, and not even one logical explanation of tragic events of 1915. Go ahead prove your case, if you can, just like Turkish government tries but fails.

[Guest]

That was my third trip to Armenia

 

 

TURKISH Daily News

 

05 Feb. 2001

 

Comments and Analysis

 

Opinion by Mehmet Ali Birand

 

mbirand@attglobal.net

 

That was my third trip to Armenia

 

I was fearful when I went to Yerevan in the 1990s. We thought that we were

going to be attacked by someone immediately or be insulted. We thought that

the Armenians hatred might have become more acute over time and they would

want to seek vengeance with the first Turk they saw.

 

The Armenian government of the time probably must have thought like we did,

it had surrounded us with a wall made of escorting policemen.

 

We were amazed that there were no incidents. We joined with the people and

had group conversations and heard the Armenians tell their sorrow of the

past.

 

Later, I went to Nogorno-Karabagh via Yerevan. The war had just ended and

the Armenians had invaded Azerbaijani. A Turkish journalist's being in

Nogerno-Karabagh aroused amazement. We heard sentences such as: "What is

this man looking for here? What courage is this?"

 

We made another trip with a wall of protection and without any trouble

again.

 

This time it was much different.

 

Neither protection, nor anything else...

 

It becomes easier to see the difference if you go to Armenia with ten-year

intervals.

 

Highways had become better.

 

Hotels and houses heated.

 

A little more variety of goods were available in market places.

 

However, underdevelopment and poverty are still obviously evident.

 

That is to say, after ten years their independence is not suffice for

healing Armenia.

 

There are boycotts on Turkish products...

When you have a look around the stores, you become amazed. Turkish products

gleam brightly among the goods which most are imported from Russia and

Ukraine. Western made electronic instruments are also brought via Turkey. A

large proportion of their foodstuffs that are available are Turkish

products.

 

It is estimated that the annual trade from Turkey to Armenia brings $100-160

million. However, due to the recent developments, rival firms have begun to

act to erase Turkey from the markets by making use of this opportunity. They

boycott Turkish products which seems successful to some extent.

 

But no matter whatever they do, they can't close Armenia to Turkey entirely.

Those who get the greatest share from Turkish products are Georgians or

Iranians. They sell the things they buy from Turkey at a cheaper price then

sell to the Armenians at a much higher price.

 

That is to say, economy doesn't hear politics.

 

Armenia is continuously getting emaciated

Its area is 29,800 square kilometers. As large as our Thrace region. It has

no coastlines, just surrounded by land.

 

Its population is 3.5 million according to official numbers. However, it is

stressed that it has fallen to 2 million due to a mass migration. 75 percent

of the young population migrate to Russia or Ukraine and the remaining part

to Turkey, the United States or the European Union countries, with the

expectation of better work and living conditions. The average age is 66. One

of the most current problems of the country is its losing blood with the

migration.

 

Unemployment has reached a serious rate of 20 percent.

 

It has nearly no underground wealth. It has neither natural gas, oil or

food. It can stand with the continuous aids coming from abroad.

 

Its annual gross national income is $2,700 per person. Its inflation is

about 10 percent. It has family farming and a small industry based economy.

 

Turkish bus company owners are shedding tears of blood

Another group effected by the recent developments are the bus company owners

who have been carrying people between Yerevan and Turkey (via Georgia) for

years.

 

Turkey was giving visas to Armenian citizens at the Georgian border until

recently. But this practice has paused due to recent developments.

 

"... Armenians preferred Turkey even in the hardest of times. They were

coming in wandering as they shopped and returning home when finished. They

were leaving money back. When the visas were abolished we didn't know what

to do either..." said a bus-fleet owner. "Abolishing visas has not brought

any good to Turkey because when Armenians come and see Turkey, they realize

that there is nothing to be gained with the genocide allegations or anything

else," he continued.

 

It seems that the way of making Armenians give up their genocide claims,

which cannot be proved, is not to ban visas but on the contrary provide them

visas so as to enable them to see the facts.

 

Diaspora is satisfying itself

Diaspora consists of Armenians living out of Armenia. Their population is

about 3.5 million. They are the relatives of families who suffered in the

incidents of 1915. Most of them are rich and heading the genocide campaign.

 

Their aim is initially to be able to wangle compensation from Turkey for the

family members they lost in the incidents. Most probably, they will launch

their compensation case soon, only for this reason did they force the French

parliament to make the decision known by everyone.

 

Diaspora has been leaning on allegations of genocide with all its might.

Employing its sources and energy in this direction. On the other hand, they

don't take an interest in Armenia as much as the Armenians expect. In

privates speeches, Armenians don't hide their resentment. They criticize

Diaspora by saying, "They are content with satisfying only themselves, while

we try to survive in poverty."

 

People of Kars are also in trouble

I passed through Kars on my way back from Yerevan.

 

I met with Mayor Naif Alibeyoglu, the former and current chairman of the

Trade union and the salesmen.

 

They are also complaining about the current situation.

 

They drew attention to the fact that they won't be hurt by the Armenian

people and that the two sides were in need of each other.

 

"There is only one way out of this paradox and that is the establishment of

civil talks between the people of the two countries," said Alibeyoglu.

Alibeyoglu added that they told the truth to every single Armenian they

talked to whenever they went to Armenia.

 

Alibeyoglu, who said, "The people of this region are the ones who know that

a genocide couldn't be a matter of question," believes that progress could

be made if the Armenian and the Turkish citizens were left alone.

 

People in Kars are very realistic people.

 

Patriots, leftist or rightist, they can all see the developments clearly.

 

The only thing they regret is that they were left all alone at a far corner

of the country. When you look from those places everything seems different.

 

Mehmet Ali Birand's article is translated by TDN staff

 

-----------

Copyright 2000, Turkish Daily News. This article is redistributed with

permission for personal use of Groong readers. No part of this article

may be reproduced, further distributed or archived without the prior

permission of the publisher. Contact Turkish Daily News Online at http://www.TurkishDailyNews.com for details.

-----------

[Guest]

MJ,

 

I have been following some of the discussions that have gone on in this forum for some time. I am Turkish and have an interest in a mature/civilized discussion on the various difficulties that plague our communities relations and the exploration of the differing viewpoints. Obviously I am not an ambassador of the Turkish peoples nor a historian, but I will give you my honest answers. If you do not wish to hold a dialogue with me or want me to post on this site again, I will understand and abide by your request.

 

Regards,

alps

 

------------------

[Guest]

Dear Alps,

 

I give myself the liberty of welcoming you in our forum on behalf of the members. We are eager to engage with our Turkish neighbors in a constructive manner, for the purpose of developing a better mutual understanding.

 

I think that the exploration of our differences and the identification of our edges of collaboration, along with the better understanding of where does each of us come from in his/her approach is a very desirable endeavor, and may serve positively our two nations.

 

I am not a historian, either, and I am not aware of any professional historian members of our forum. Neither are we the ambassadors of Armenian people in the formal or semi-formal sense of the word. But we are its concerned sons and daughters.

 

So that we could “attach a face” to the person beyond your courteous entry, would you mind briefly introducing yourself, please?

[Guest]

That is fair request.

 

Well, I am a Turkish ciizen(dual citizenship-American also). I was born in Turkey. I have lived in Turkey, Jordan, and the US(majority in the US). I work as an engineer. I believe I have an open mind and respect for other cultures and peoples but I am also proud of who I am and where I come from. If you want know anything else, I will attempt to be as accomodating as possible so long as it isn't too personal.

[Guest]

Thank you, Alps. No need for personal information. It is not required in our forum. I expect that we will learn more about each other as we go.

 

What type of engineering do you practice? How long have you been in the US? Can you give an idea on your age bracket? Also, what time zone are you in?

[Guest]

I studied mechanical engineering in college, I work in the building services industry now(architectural engineering). I am in my early 20's, I have lived in the US for about 14 years. My time zone is eastern time(12PM here) and with that I am off to bed.

 

Cheers

[Guest]

Thanks. Seems that you and me are two of the disadvantageous people in this forum. The majority of the members are in Western Time Zone. So they can badmouth us for another three hours, and then delete their disgraceful postings, and you and me wouldn't even have an idea about it next morning (Just kidding. )

 

I am off to bed, too.

 

Good night.

[Guest]

Alps,

 

If you've followed the forum for some time, you understand there are Armenians here from all walks of life with various points of view. Along with that are various levels of hostility towards modern-day Turkey. You clearly sound as if you are seeking an intellectual discussion regarding Armenian-Turkish relations, and therefore, welcome.

I hope other members will respect your courteous entrance and that emotion will stay out of any discussions.

 

[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited February 07, 2001).]

[Guest]

MJ,

 

LOL - That is why I am waking up so early - just kidding. Work calls.

 

Pilafhead,

 

Pleased to meet you, I understand that everyone has their opinions and that there are good and bad apples in all groups of people. Why did you choose the name Pilafhead?

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by alps101:
Why did you choose the name Pilafhead?

---

Because I love rice. My grandmother has always called me her "Chinatsi grandson", or "Chinese grandson".

[Guest]

Hi,

Pilafhead, is the 'pilaf' on your name pilav or did i get it wrong?lol

[Guest]

Hi again,

As long as Turkey will have populist politicans as they had since now,The Genocide will never be recognised,I can't even think something else.

Here,my friends who know i am an Armenian believe what i tell them about the genocide because they know the usual habits and lies of Turkish politicians.I just tell my friends what happened to my family,nothing else.

I'm not and never against personal contact

with clever Turks because many of them are really sad of their history but can't do anything.

The rest of these clever Turks have stone in their heads instead of a brain and the politicians take votes of them.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by levonyeshilian:
Pilafhead, is the 'pilaf' on your name pilav or did i get it wrong?lol

---

It could be that the correct spelling is indeed "pilav". I don't know, but in America, "pilaf" is a generally known word amongst everyone (armenians and odars).

[Guest]

Longtime Enemies, Armenia and Turkey Softly Broach Détente

 

The New York Times

February 15, 2001

 

By DOUGLAS FRANTZ

 

ISTANBUL, Feb. 14 - The governments of Armenia and Turkey have initiated

quiet diplomatic contacts in recent weeks to evaluate prospects for

cooperation and opening the border between them, said people outside the

governments who have been briefed on the talks.

 

The countries have no diplomatic relations, but mid-level officials from

both foreign ministries have exchanged visits in the capitals, Yerevan and

Ankara.

 

The signs of progress are small and come at a time of rising anxiety in

Turkey over actions by the Armenian diaspora to persuade world governments

to recognize the killing of Armenians under the Ottoman Empire as genocide.

 

But the private government contacts have yielded more positive sentiments

than the sometimes-harsh public statements from the two capitals.

 

The talks are occurring as private organizations in Turkey have taken steps

toward expanding contacts with Armenia and Armenian-Americans, an effort

that has yielded some visible progress.

 

A Turkish-Armenian business group is stepping up efforts to promote trade

between the countries, and in June 600 Armenian pilgrims are planning to

visit ancient Armenian sites in Turkey under the sponsorship of the Armenian

Church of America, which is based in New York.

 

In a rare public visit, Armenian officials are expected to attend a

conference on regional stability on Saturday in Istanbul.

 

"The mere contact is an achievement under these circumstances," said Ozdem

Sanberk, a retired senior Turkish diplomat who is director of the Turkish

Economic and Social Studies Foundation, the conference sponsor. "It's a

bumpy road, and we must handle it with care," he said.

 

The Turkish Foreign Ministry declined to comment on the talks with Armenia,

but a senior ministry official said Ankara wants to normalize relations if

certain conditions are met. "That is an objective for us, and it would be

good not only for Turks and Armenians, but for the region," the official

said.

 

Dziunik Aghajanian, a spokeswoman for the Armenian Ministry of Foreign

Affairs, said in a telephone interview that she could not confirm recent

meetings, but she said there have been numerous contacts between officials

of the two countries in recent months.

 

No one is predicting substantial improvement soon. The issues that divide

the countries are difficult.

 

Armenians say 1.5 million people were killed by Turkey in 1915, and they

want the deaths recognized as genocide. They also want the border between

the countries reopened so trade can resume and Armenia can revive its

stagnant economy.

 

Turkish officials say far fewer Armenians died as a result of partisan

fighting, and they want Armenians to stop advocating the genocide

legislation. They said the border would not be opened until Armenia withdrew

its troops from the Nagorno-Artsax region of Azerbaijan, which ethnic

Armenians claim as their homeland.

 

Tensions increased last month after the French Parliament adopted a bill

that recognized the 1915 killings as genocide. Turkey retaliated by

excluding French companies from several public contracts, mostly in the

defense field, and taking symbolic actions like banning French travelers

from the V.I.P. lounge at Ataturk Airport in Istanbul.

 

Turkish officials hope progress with Armenia will head off introduction of a

similar resolution in the United States Congress.