Arpa Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Sometimes I think that if Turkey recognized Genocide I would feel nothing. When seeing our government's unhuman treatment of its citizens, the corrupt Church, Armenian pimps trafficing Armenian women to Turkey, politicians ready to sell Armenia at any moment to accomplish their individual goals etc. I see no reason why would the fact of recongnition satisfy my national aspirations. OH NO!! Bernit karmir piper!! A nightmare of all nightmares. You mean all these Forums will have to shut down as we will have nothing to talk about??!! Sarcasm!!! Sarcasm!!! Seriously though, it will happen sooner or later, by hook or by crook, by the pen or the sword. In the meantime we should practice and learn to talk about about subjects that will be on the frontline once we cannot blame others for our failures defeats anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Yes, Holocaust recognition didn't make Jews end up assimilating. (Sorry for bringing them in again, but there's something to be learned from them.) In fact, they have gone with and beyond it to broader horizons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 What would I feel if the genocide were recognised tomorrow? I wouldn't feel surprised. The only reason Turkey will recognise the Armenian genocide is either due to pressure fromt the U.S. or in order to join the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Why thinking of something which will not happen, ever and never? There is a chance that a pink unicorn created the universe, but there is no chance that Turks will recognise the genocide. There is no universe in the infinit numbers of universes where the possibility of the Turks recognising it exist... not a chance in a zillion, so why discussing about the only non-existing possibility in the Fadixian multiuniverses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Why thinking of something which will not happen, ever and never? There is a chance that a pink unicorn created the universe, but there is no chance that Turks will recognise the genocide. There is no universe in the infinit numbers of universes where the possibility of the Turks recognising it exist... not a chance in a zillion, so why discussing about the only non-existing possibility in the Fadixian multiuniverses? Is there any particular reason why you think it will "never" happen, Domino? Do enlighten us. I'm curious to hear why you think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted February 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Is there any particular reason why you think it will "never" happen, Domino? Do enlighten us. I'm curious to hear why you think so. Wolf, believe me you don't want to here the answer to your question from Domino (better ask someone else) for the following reasons: 1. It will have footnotes, endnotes etc. 2. You will be forwarded to multiple other links 3. There will be pages and pages of personal correspondense with well known Genocide scholars. And last but not least, I don't want this thread to expand to 6-7 sections in one day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Why thinking of something which will not happen, ever and never? There is a chance that a pink unicorn created the universe, but there is no chance that Turks will recognise the genocide. There is no universe in the infinit numbers of universes where the possibility of the Turks recognising it exist... not a chance in a zillion, so why discussing about the only non-existing possibility in the Fadixian multiuniverses? For once I agree Domino. I don't think it will ever happen. The Turk remains a Turk. After 1000 years they are still the same racist, selfabsorbed, barbaric and intolerant nation. They will never recognize anything, they are far too proud of themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiner Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 I would feel really good. But I don't think it would affect my daily life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted February 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 We have a homeland. What is the ROA to you? How about we rebuild that? Vava, I'm in total agreement with you on this. L. Ter-Petrossian, a historian, - who knew the tragic history of Armenia better than anyone else - who perfectly understood the importance of the moment when Armenia gained independence - the necessity of laying a healthy foundation for a young country was not able to withstand the pressure of his friends and disregard the intersets of his family, because he did not have the gutts. He missed a unique opportunity to use the morals of a war winning nation for nation building. Armenias current problems all come from the day when LTP forgave the first bribe to his family and friends. And it all went downwards from there. We speak about our family values a lot and we cherish the family as the basis of Armenian social psyche, whereas in political and security level of social relations family orientation is the enemy of any social ageement providing collective good. Family values are proper in free market where the idea of "brotherhood" and trust is the key to success. Once you bring them to politics and security sphere, family values mutate into the well know mafia. Thats what happened in Armenia. The basis for statehood mentality is the common sense. And I don't mean the widely used "common sense" for a rational and popular behaviour. But a sense that cements a nation on some intuitive level. We Armenians don't have that sense. Instead we have a very sharp sence for justice on personal level. I believe LTP knew this too. And yet he did what he did. He saved his own life and provided prosperity for his family and close friends, who again today want power. By this I don't mean that Kocharian's government is any good. But the educated, smart founder of the republic was LTP. I just can't believe that the one whom our nation, which withstand so many hardships, trusted with there future proved to be a simple coward. This is why I, a decendant of classic genocide survivor family, don't realy care if Turks are going to recognise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Wolf, believe me you don't want to here the answer to your question from Domino (better ask someone else) for the following reasons: 1. It will have footnotes, endnotes etc. 2. You will be forwarded to multiple other links 3. There will be pages and pages of personal correspondense with well known Genocide scholars. And last but not least, I don't want this thread to expand to 6-7 sections in one day Well, yes, but the past is not necessarily a marker for the future. As an example, just because empires have reached a high doesn't mean they will never have a downfall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 (edited) As the Persians say Khari Tork...meaning Esh Turk... Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Vava, I'm in total agreement with you on this. L. Ter-Petrossian, a historian, - who knew the tragic history of Armenia better than anyone else - who perfectly understood the importance of the moment when Armenia gained independence - the necessity of laying a healthy foundation for a young country was not able to withstand the pressure of his friends and disregard the intersets of his family, because he did not have the gutts. He missed a unique opportunity to use the morals of a war winning nation for nation building. Armenias current problems all come from the day when LTP forgave the first bribe to his family and friends. And it all went downwards from there. We speak about our family values a lot and we cherish the family as the basis of Armenian social psyche, whereas in political and security level of social relations family orientation is the enemy of any social ageement providing collective good. Family values are proper in free market where the idea of "brotherhood" and trust is the key to success. Once you bring them to politics and security sphere, family values mutate into the well know mafia. Thats what happened in Armenia. The basis for statehood mentality is the common sense. And I don't mean the widely used "common sense" for a rational and popular behaviour. But a sense that cements a nation on some intuitive level. We Armenians don't have that sense. Instead we have a very sharp sence for justice on personal level. I believe LTP knew this too. And yet he did what he did. He saved his own life and provided prosperity for his family and close friends, who again today want power. By this I don't mean that Kocharian's government is any good. But the educated, smart founder of the republic was LTP. I just can't believe that the one whom our nation, which withstand so many hardships, trusted with there future proved to be a simple coward. This is why I, a decendant of classic genocide survivor family, don't realy care if Turks are going to recognise. I don ´t think that LTP was not succesful because he gave in to the "temptations of evil" or to family values. Rather, it is the fact that having an orderly transition to the in fact unknown is a very difficult process, regardless of how well you understand history. Which ex-Soviet republics have had some degree of success in transitioning to democracy ? Only the Baltic republics, which were the latecomers to the bossom of the all nurturing Soviet Union...and hence knew better. Neighborhood also helps. As absurd as this might sound Armenia is not in that bad of a shape when we take into account a war, blockade, emigration, endemic corruption and even treason by officials. Resilience. Going back to LTP: it is not enough knowing how things should be but there need to be objective conditions to allow for it. For that one needs time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 The reasons for marrying an Armenian are numerous. Although for many it is pressure from parents, for me it was not so. I moved far from my family. I dated MANY odars. When I met my former wife, I felt an instant bond because I was raised in an Armenian home. The Genocide had NOTHING to do with it. She was also a follower of Eastern religions as was I, even though we were both nominal Christians. We both were fascinated with Native American ruins. We were both believers in alternative medicine. We both had dabbled in same sex relationships. The Genocide was not a critical factor at all in deciding to get marred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted February 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Well, yes, but the past is not necessarily a marker for the future. As an example, just because empires have reached a high doesn't mean they will never have a downfall. You're basically getting ready to engage in mutually destructive dispute with a fellow Armenian over "How Turks killed Armenians and wheather they're going to recognize it". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 You're basically getting ready to engage in mutually destructive dispute with a fellow Armenian over "How Turks killed Armenians and wheather they're going to recognize it". How so? I don't think I am arguing about how Turks killed Armenians and whether or not they killed them. I'm not arguing about what is fact and what is not. I'm just trying to understand where Domino is coming from. He doesn't need to post pages of articles or arguments about whether or not the Genocide did take place, however interesting that may be. Whether they're going to recognise it is, true, a bit off-topic to this thread, so maybe Domino could start a new thread about it (or provide a link to another thread that already exists, as I'd love to read what people think about that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted February 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 How so? I don't think I am arguing about how Turks killed Armenians and whether or not they killed them. I'm not arguing about what is fact and what is not. I'm just trying to understand where Domino is coming from. He doesn't need to post pages of articles or arguments about whether or not the Genocide did take place, however interesting that may be. Whether they're going to recognise it is, true, a bit off-topic to this thread, so maybe Domino could start a new thread about it (or provide a link to another thread that already exists, as I'd love to read what people think about that). Cool. Just checking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted February 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 I don ´t think that LTP was not succesful because he gave in to the "temptations of evil" or to family values. Rather, it is the fact that having an orderly transition to the in fact unknown is a very difficult process, regardless of how well you understand history. Which ex-Soviet republics have had some degree of success in transitioning to democracy ? Only the Baltic republics, which were the latecomers to the bossom of the all nurturing Soviet Union...and hence knew better. Neighborhood also helps. As absurd as this might sound Armenia is not in that bad of a shape when we take into account a war, blockade, emigration, endemic corruption and even treason by officials. Resilience. Going back to LTP: it is not enough knowing how things should be but there need to be objective conditions to allow for it. For that one needs time. Boghos, The leaders of many newly established nations sacrificed their lifes, the lifes and future of their family for the future of their nation. There are many examples I'm sure you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 (edited) Is there any particular reason why you think it will "never" happen, Domino? Do enlighten us. I'm curious to hear why you think so. I have explained this a countless number of time... I think I will trace where I wrote about this and just copypast it. The Armenian genocide is not like the Jewish genocide... the Turks are not stupid, their cases is a lot worst than the Germans. Here some ellements for you to consider. 1) The foundations of the Turkish republic is build on the extermination of a people. (Germany is not build on the extermination of the Jews, it was not necessary to exterminate the Jews to build a Germany) a- The richest families, compagnies, etc... aristocracy etc... etc... etc... all are what they are from the looting of the armenians. b- The Ottoman was in ruin, and the only way to pay the war debts and secure the funds to build the republic were made possible by the money secured by the Ittihadists from the looting of the Armenians. c- Armenians had to be destroyed and their economical and cultural power had to be taken off from them and given to the Turks. d- There is the land claims etc... For the Turks recognising the genocide, is to recognise that the foundation of the republic is build on this eradication, without the extermination there will be no turkey today. There is no nation in the world that could accept that... Germany is not build on the extermination of the Jews, holocaust or not, there still would be a Germany. Would a nation recognise that its own construction is made possible by the most bloodish and savage act known in the human vocabulary? Hell no! Would that change what I do by exposing what had been done? Nope! An astronomer know that probably he will never find all the answers, he will still search them, a medical searcher knows he will never find the cure of all the diseases, but he will still search those cures etc... i know the Turks will never recognise them, but I still do what I have to do. If you expect them to recognise the genocide, you live in a dream world. Edited February 10, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 OK! Here something I wrote in the past, I will just copypast it. http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showt...%20people&st=20 Recognising the genocide is thoses. 1- The Victims were innocent, and there was no reason to exterminate them. And the word extermination should be used to discribe the deaths, and not just telling that the Turks did a mistake by sending them in the desert, and supposing that that was the genocide. 2- The Republic of Turkey has been made possible and has been build on the extermination of a people(Thats a very important aspect, one of the most important, if that is ignored by the Turks, then it is not a fulled recognised genocide). 3- More then a million died. Even if numbers are not important to say if a genocide is a genocide, and it is rather the attempt , but the Armenian genocide made more then a million victims, and the importance of the Armenian losses should be pointed up. Every way to underevaluating the numbers of victims, is not recognising the event that is called genocide. It is not enough to tell, a genocide happened, but to recognise it fully, one should recognise the full consequences of this act. 4- Turkey should change the names of every schools, streets, hospitals, Museums, etc... that are named after those responsable of the Armenian genocide. Without that, the genocide is not fully recognised, its like Germany recognising the genocide, and having public institutions named after NAZIs. 5- The building of the Turkish republic, the president, the Prime minister etc... should appologise in the name of the Turkish republic for all those years of denials, appologise in the name of the Turkish republic for the fact that the Turkish repubvlic has been build on the extermination of the Armenians, appologise for having turned the victims into agressors, for all those years. Not doing this, is not fully recognising the genocide. 6- Making illegal in Turkey, the denial of the Armenian genocide, founding chairs of histories for the study of the genocide, without that, the Genocide is not fully recognised, because recognising it, is recognising its undeniability, recognising it is not believing it, but rather knowing it, recognising the fact, and recognising that denying it, is an immoral and so, should be a crime, and that, like every crimes, should be judged. 7- And to finish, the borders with Armenia should be open, and Turkey should recognise Karabagh as a part of Armenia, because it is because of the Kemalists and their plan to destroy Armenia, they comploted with the Bolshevics to brake Armenia into pieces, in order that it never be able to become independent, Karabagh conflict is a direct consequences from the Turks to not only destroy the Armenians, but destroy everything that could identify the Armenians as Armenians. There is other points as well, but those come in mind right now, this is what I mean fully recognising the Genocide, it is not enough to say it was a genocide, but recognising all the repercutions of using such a word. I could summarize that by saying that Turkey not only should say it was a genocide, but rather take the responsability of saying such a word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 Here another exchange that will answer it. http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showt...%20people&st=20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 Thanks for clarifying, Domino. Armen and the rest, I don't mean to be offtopic, and Domino, I dont' mean to be an *ss, but I will say this anyway: The Armenian genocide is not like the Jewish genocide... the Turks are not stupid, their cases is a lot worst than the Germans. Are you implying that the Germans were stupid? 1) The foundations of the Turkish republic is build on the extermination of a people. (Germany is not build on the extermination of the Jews, it was not necessary to exterminate the Jews to build a Germany) Both countries wanted an "empire" in which only Turks/Turkish people and in Germany's case Germans and other Aryans would live and prosper. I don't see how you can claim that the Germans didn't need to "exterminate" the Jews in order to build a Germany. Anyhow. Thanks for clarifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 6- Making illegal in Turkey, the denial of the Armenian genocide, founding chairs of histories for the study of the genocide, without that, the Genocide is not fully recognised, because recognising it, is recognising its undeniability, recognising it is not believing it, but rather knowing it, recognising the fact, and recognising that denying it, is an immoral and so, should be a crime, and that, like every crimes, should be judged. I have a terrible time trying to agree with this part of the statement. Any anti-intellectuals measures that are aimed at curtailing free speech, and thought control, I abhor, be it for the Armenian Genocide, or the Holocaust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 (edited) den_ When I wrote that the Turks were not stupid, it was regarding the preconception that the Turks don't recognise the genocide because they are "stupid" etc... I just clarified that they are not stupid and that they not wanting to recognise it goes beyond just blindness and stupidity. As for Germany and Turkey. If there was no holocaust, Germany would still exist. If there was no Armenian genocide, the Turkish republic would not exist, if it were to exist, it would be insignificant compared to what it is now, this is how you must see it. Germany was not build on the eradication of the Jews, Germany existed before the holocaust and after... the Turkish republic on the other hand was founded on the ashes of an exterminated people... from top to bottom a new republic was build, and its construction was made possible by the destruction of a people. This is a distinctive ellement which makes the recognition of the Armenian genocide impossible for the Turks. for a german to recognise the holocaust is not equivalent as saying that Germany was build on the destruction of the Jews. Edited February 10, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 I have a terrible time trying to agree with this part of the statement. Any anti-intellectuals measures that are aimed at curtailing free speech, and thought control, I abhor, be it for the Armenian Genocide, or the Holocaust. I do agree with you, point 6) I take it out, I have changed my mind regarding this point since the time i wrote that. You can see that in one recent post of mine where I say that freedom of speech should not be silenced, and denial should not be silenced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 I still agree that the Turkish government must recognize. Well, since that won't happen anytime soon, we shall behold the power of nation-states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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