angel4hope Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 i am currently studying the written work of renowned philosopher, J.S. Mill.... I thought it would be interesting to share a few of his views and beliefes and get some feedback on what you guys hold to be valid or just some opinions... coolio...here we go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 My opinions are facts because they are true. You can't argue against that belief of truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 " the struggle between liberty and authority is the most conspicuous feature in the portions of historywith which we are earliest familiar, particularly in Greece, Rome, and England. But in the old times, this contest was between subjects, or some classes of subjects, and the government. By liberty, was meant protection against the tyrrany of the political rulers. ....." "....the notion that people have no need to limit their power over themselves may be axiomatic, when popular government was a thing only dreamed about...." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 I don't dispute that, and I would add that, my political rulers need to be shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 (edited) here are some of Mill's beiefs... people have inconsisen beliefs with situations such as freedom and liberty... liberty is just tyrrany of the majority. Mill and utilitarianism.... leading moral theory which proposes that the right action is the one that produces overall--maximum happiness... and it is a type of consequentialism which holds that rightness or wrongness is to be judged of consequences of actions. so the question here is...so this "right action" of the utalitarian theory, it holds that whatever produces "maximum" amount of happiness is rightous ~therefore for the majority---therefore there still exists a small group-a minroty- which is not happy with the actions...therefore...is it still right? Edited January 28, 2004 by angel4hope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 here are some of my interpretations of the utalitarian view of what Mill THE GOOD 1. happiness as a basic good-everyone deserves happiness therefore government should seek to maximize overall happiness..-they should put an equal weight to hapiness of each individual.--not biased--not favoring ones own happiness ovwer another person's--which goes against human nature to be egotistical. 2. there is one basic overall principle to guide us to a decision--persuing overall happiness...therefore tragic conflicts are reduced 3. involves emperical calculations of consequences--what will produce the best results...?! THE DOWNSIDE 1. justice- have to sacrifice the minority's happiness to appease the majority. 2. integrity- utalitarianism pushes one to sacrifice integrity -- 3. "Pleasure machine" proposal theory that government should be one-- invent a machine whch causes happiness~which can be viewed as pleasure--we value more things than pleasure...make people happy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 here are some of Mill's beiefs... people have inconsisen beliefs with situations such as freedom and liberty... liberty is just tyrrany of the majority. Mill and utilitarianism.... leading moral theory which proposes that the right action is the one that produces overall--maximum happiness... and it is a type of consequentialism which holds that rightness or wrongness is to be judged of consequences of actions. so the question here is...so this "right action" of the utalitarian theory, it holds that whatever produces "maximum" amount of happiness is rightous ~therefore for the majority---therefore there still exists a small group-a minroty- which is not happy with the actions...therefore...is it still right? That all depends on what "utilitarianism" one takes, social or for the individual? I'm not really into Utilitarianism. Liberty is of course a major theme in the particular brand of Austrian thought the Mises Institute embraces, and which I am an ardent learner of, and this is clear not only from the very title of Murray N. Rothbard’s work, The Ethics of Liberty, but also in the fact that they publish a journal dedicated to liberal ideals. Liberty can mean several dozens of things, and can be a philosophically challenging concept to cash out with precision. Utilitarianism is a result driven ethic, that is, it is driven by a desire to secure a specified result, a particular "greatest good" desired by the greatest number. In this sense one can see the similarities between "Democracy" or "the will of the majority". Utilitarianism thus concerns itself with gaming the outcome of the exercise of man’s freedom. By definition, all matters are necessarily subordinate to the acquisition of the "greatest good" for the "greatest number". As a result, particular individuals simply don’t count and, in fact, the philosophy sanctions the use of individuals solely as a means to an end, that is it sanctions human sacrifice, so long as those to be sacrificed are not so numerous that it eliminates rather than contributes to the overall aggregate benefit. Because utilitarianism is concerned with securing a desired outcome, whether the individual is permitted liberty to act depends on whether his fellow citizens are, using their liberty to achieve the desired good. If not, the individual’s liberty may be curbed or redirected. Thus the individual’s freedom depends on how others behave, and is defined and circumscribed with reference to the results that others achieve. In other words, you cannot carry a gun, because too many others are using them to commit crimes. Thus the scope of your freedom depends not on how you act, but on how others act. And this is the exact sort of thinking that is used by the State, to justify its existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 wow! I just scored 135 on an online IQ test, im gonna go get meself a cold beer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 wow! I just scored 135 on an online IQ test, im gonna go get meself a cold beer Make that two please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 i got a pretty high score too they tested me at school and i was also in the gifted program in high school Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 When they gave me my IQ test, I ate it. Twice. Therefore, it is impossible to measure my IQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 The IQ test said Im a 'visionary philosopher' - like Plato - yeh maybe after I finish this beer and the rest of the six-pack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 I don't know about the whole "visionary philosopher", but you'll certainly have a beer gut to contemplate about like the ancient sages did about the stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 accel...my bro ...lol u know ill be nothing but honest with you, if you keep drinking beer in that pace, you wont have much brain cells left to even be considered for a labotomy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 I can tell you all about Tolstoy and his Happy Ever After, but I'm not going to touch this one on J.S. Mill. I might add some comments on Spinoza, but not J.S. Mill.. Partly because I don't have the time to re-read all his stuff, and partly because I am not sure if I agree with him (if he's the dude with whom I'm associating the writings I have in mind). OK, back to my essay. Tolstoy.. btw, if anyone can suggest a cure for nausea, please go ahead and do so.......... http://armenians.com/forum/style_images/1/icon8.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 I can tell you all about Tolstoy and his Happy Ever After, but I'm not going to touch this one on J.S. Mill. I might add some comments on Spinoza, but not J.S. Mill.. Partly because I don't have the time to re-read all his stuff, and partly because I am not sure if I agree with him (if he's the dude with whom I'm associating the writings I have in mind). OK, back to my essay. Tolstoy.. btw, if anyone can suggest a cure for nausea, please go ahead and do so.......... http://armenians.com/forum/style_images/1/icon8.gif Cause http://www.pepto-bismol.com/images/HR%20PB%20Lqud-8oz.jpg Effect http://www.pepto-bismol.com/images/pepto-stomach-animation-sma.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 i dont agree with much of what mill says....im just studying it..reasarching.... okie... get it? get it? good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 (edited) i dont agree with much of what mill says....im just studying it..reasarching.... okie... get it? get it? good! oooookay... got it! got it! if that was directed AT me.. sheesh, relax... what's with the ****ness? lol.. is it that time of the month or what?!? http://queerhye.delri.net/amot1.gif btw, rat, is that something that would cure Tolstoy-phobia? Edited January 28, 2004 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 hey hey hey..dan maybe its that time of the month 4 u ..? i dunno...but i was jokeing when i said get it? got it? good! hmmm...its a joke buddy chillax! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 hey hey hey..dan maybe its that time of the month 4 u ..? i dunno...but i was jokeing when i said get it? got it? good! hmmm...its a joke buddy chillax! no thanks, if there's one reason I'm glad I'm not a girl, that would be it lol. I don't know, but you sounded pretty uhhh serious.. cheers. back to my essay. at least till you relax. i was kidding too, btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 leading moral theory which proposes that the right action is the one that produces overall--maximum happiness... and it is a type of consequentialism which holds that rightness or wrongness is to be judged of consequences of actions. This is argued in the fassion of it being true in all cases, thus one disproof disprooves the whole theory, and there are more than one i can list... so this theory is still to utilitarian to accept, and it is not evena leading philosophicl theory, it was barried at some conference of philosophy in europe few years back.... i dont have details though... i could get them if anyone really wants... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted February 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 okay im going to post my essay on socrates and how he proves/argues that death is a blessing...some interesting views...i have my own views on the subject...but please do share what you think .... Plato: Apology “ Besides, Socrates, I do not think what you are doing is just, to give up your life when you can save it…you seem to me to choose the easiest path, whereas one should choose the path a good and courageous man would choose, participating when one claims throughout one’s life to care for virtue.” Socrates would most likely respond to this objection by commenting on the fear of death, death being a blessing, and about not disgracing oneself-one’s life. First and foremost, Socrates is most likely to respond to the latter by questioning the fear of death. Socrates states that, “to fear death…is no other than to think oneself wise when one is not, to think one knows what one does not know. No one knows whether death may or may not be the greatest of all blessings for a man, yet men fear it as if they knew that it is the greatest of evils” (33). He implies that one only fears things that are evil, bad, and since no one knows how death is like, one should not fear it. In the quote above from page 33, Socrates is saying that fearing death is like fearing something you have no knowledge of, where there is also a possibility that the outcome may be a blessing (as well as the possibility of expected evils). Socrates also makes a point by saying that if one fears death, that means that the person is thinking as themselves as wise when he/she is not, because you can not (should not-in these terms) fear something you know nothing about. Next, Socrates argues that since one does not know what death is like, and therefore should not fear it, then also that death can be a blessing. He states that, “death is a blessing, for it is one of two things: either the dead are nothing and have no perception of anything, or it is as we are told, a change and a relocating for the soul from here to another place” (43). Here, Socrates claims that one should not fear death, because it is either annihilation or it’s a change of the location of the soul, therefore either way, death is a blessing. If death is nothing but annihilation, lack of perception, a dreamless sleep, then what is there to fear? Does one not sleep at night? Should one be afraid of sleep? Or, if death is the relocation of the soul, afterlife, when a person dies, he/she will get to meet all other people who have died, in Socrates view this is also a blessing, because he believes that he will have great intellectual conversations with all other people who have died. In turn to the objection about Socrates choosing an easy path by “giving up to death”, and not being a “good and courageous man”, Socrates is most likely to respond by saying that he should maintain his position and take what fate brings to him. This is apparent in the following quote, where Socrates believes that, “wherever a man has taken a position that he believes to be best, or has been placed by his commander, there he must I think remain and face danger” (33). By the following, Socrates is trying to make clear that the gods have appointed him as a philosopher, and that he will die maintaining his position and will not deny nor betray it by escaping death. Socrates may possibly use further information to support his views that death is a blessing, making clear that death is no evil, especially in his case. Socrates states that, “a good man cannot be harmed either in life or in death and that his affairs are not neglected by the gods”(44). Here he is trying to reassure the jury and himself that he believes that he himself is a good man and that he will not be punished by the gods. He later goes on to say that, “better to die now and escape from trouble” (44). He means that since he “knows” that death is a blessing, then there is nothing for him to fear, so, he would rather die and be peaceful, rather than not die and live through all that trouble. Earlier in the text, Socrates, when asked if he is ashamed to have followed his occupation as a philosopher that has lead to him being in a dangerous situation (possibility of death), he replies by saying, “you are wrong, sir, if you think that a man who is any good at all should take into account the risk of life or death; he should look to his only in his actions, whether he has done right or wrong…” (32/33). Here, he is saying that if asked whether he is ashamed that his practices as a philosopher have lead him to a situation in which he is possibly going to be executed, he will answer by saying that the man in question should only look at his actions, whether they were good or bad, right or wrong. He implies that, although others see his actions as wrong and bad, he himself does not see them that way, that he sees himself as a good man, therefore he is not afraid of death, for it doesn’t yield punishment. To in turn question some of Socrates views and beliefs let’s consider the following; what defines a good deed from a bad deed? Is it one’s own perception of good and bad, right and wrong? Or is it society’s perception of it? Another question also arises, how does Socrates know what the gods will or will not do? What is the basis on which Socrates concurs that death is not evil, can not be evil? Consider a situation, in which a person with schizophrenia does things without fully understanding or perceiving it as either right or wrong. Now consider that person murdering his neighbor, are his actions wrong or right? If he perceives his actions as good, does that mean that the gods also perceive it as a right action, something good? And if these perceptions disagree, would the person, or should he/she be punished? Also consider the fact that there may be other possibilities for death, maybe death is existence upon earth in the form of another being, an animal, a person, a tree, does that imply annihilation or the relocation of the sole? If so, how, what is the criteria? Therefore, does the outcome of death imply what the person himself/herself perceives, or what society perceives as right or wrong-yielding a good or bad outcome, or is it all determined by what the gods see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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