Homecoming?

[axel]

Btw, does anyone know of a translation of Eznik?

 

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/~aua/texts/ezn.../elts_aghandots

[Sasun]

Religious institutions including the Armenian church have no right to claim the followers. Their only right is to serve God and serve people who are willing to accept their service. On the other hand, people have the right to claim any religion or creed for themselves be it variations of Christianity, other religions, or none of the above.

On the other hand, all religions have the right to make themselves available and make their path known and accessable for the willing to join. This doesn't mean to thrust themselves upon people. So it is rather a delicate line that religions and sects have to follow in regards to selecting adherants. Unfortunately, that is not the case with the Armenian church and probably with other national churches.

[Arpa]

One has to make a distinction between the invisible Church and the visible one (which happens to be a national institution). Belonging to Orthodoxy is belonging to the former, not to the latter. Your attack with regard to the human institution is therefore irrelevant in the context of this discussion.

========

 

That said, what is the need for other so-called "christian" religious groups to operate in Armenia?

Their very presence on our soil indicates that they do not consider the Armenian Church as truly christian or do they? If they do, what is their purpose then, sowing the seeds of further divisions?

========

 

The truth is their attitude does not stem from truly christian considerations.

Are we still talking about the subject matter?

Please look again at the first post.

In case we have forgotten it is talking about Turks, who may be "closet Armenians" to be begin with, are reconverting.

Dear Axel, can you please step down from you lofty logorrheaic heights and speak to us in a language we all understand.

Orthodoxy? How did that get in? Which orthodoxy are we talking about? Muslim, who call themselves Sunni? Jewish, who call themselves Yeshiva or Hasidic as the case may be?

How does this fit the subject at hand?

Did you go to Aanatolia and see if there are other "closet Armenians" waiting for a nudge to come back to the Mother Church? Did you, as one forumer suggests write to Nasty and invite him to join the flock? Did you go Hamshenistan (?) :) and reintroduce them to the "true faith", orthodox or not?

As the so called "orthodox", I assume you mean the Armenian Aapostolic, is in all out war againsts the "aghands" those aghands are recaliming our long lost Christian brothers.

 

I can write books about the subject but in the meantime, please Axel stick to the topic and as the old Armenian adage goes, "stop selling vegetables to the farmer". Go sell it to the carnivorous, cannibalistic "wolves".

[grig75]

No apologies necessary.

You're right. May so called Turks of today were Christian Aremnians a short time ago. Some may still be even today (what I meant by "closet Armenians"). I think many Turks are embarassed of their primitive Islamic religion and given the chance they would convert, if only to integrate with Christian Europe. Plus when they adopted Islam way back when it was because the humanistic and charitable message of Chrsitianity did not fit their warlike character. Islam did fit their warlike character while Christianity made us even more submissive and slavelike. It didn't have to, it did not make the French submissive and slavish, neither did it the Germans. However, it may be that we were submissive and slavish to begin with and Christianity acted as another excuse for us to not defend ourselves and our homeland. That may partially answer your question as to how a handful of "nomadic gypsies" could defeat us and take our lands and lives.

It is not true, Arpa, that Islam religion is primitive. It has the same wisdom as any other religion on earth. you are talking that islam make people more warlike and christianity more slavelike!!! Not true!!!!! Remember Hannibal, Rome Emperors with their generals, Barbarians, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Hussein etc. There are many many warlike people on this planet with different religions.

[gurgen]

Hitler had nothing to do with Cristianity. He merely used it to some extent. In fact, the Christian 'caring for your fellow human being' was in contradiction with his own ideas.

 

All the people you name have nothing to do with religion. 'Great' leaders were always atheists.

[grig75]

Hitler had nothing to do with Cristianity. He merely used it to some extent. In fact, the Christian 'caring for your fellow human being' was in contradiction with his own ideas.

 

All the people you name have nothing to do with religion. 'Great' leaders were always atheists.

I did not say that Gitler has something to do christianity and I did not mean the all great leaders personally. The nations under them were very warlike. (sorry, I should have been more precise, Carthegeneans, Mongolians, Romans, Germans, French etc). That what I meant. May be they were an atheists. I don't know. What I know the religion was used (as a force to gather people together) in each of the wars on this planet. Moreover, the nations were becoming more warlike under warlike leaders. And if you sayd, they were atehists, may be atheism made you more warlike (what I don't really believe).

And who said that other religions don't preach "caring for your fellow human being". And all of the leaders I mentioned with all their nations belonged to one or another religions. In my opinion, no religion makes you more or less warlike or obeidient.

[axel]

Well Arpa, I wonder where you actually stand. In fact, your position seems quite paradoxical to me. You accuse christianity of fostering slavishness, while it doesn't, yet you seem to show some complacency towards other sectarian groups that do (evangelists, mormons, jehovah's witnesses...).

[gurgen]

I did not say that Gitler has something to do christianity and I did not mean the all great leaders personally. The nations under them were very warlike. (sorry, I should have been more precise, Carthegeneans, Mongolians, Romans, Germans, French etc). That what I meant. May be they were an atheists. I don't know. What I know the religion was used (as a force to gather people together) in each of the wars on this planet. Moreover, the nations were becoming more warlike under warlike leaders. And if you sayd, they were atehists, may be atheism made you more warlike (what I don't really believe). 

And who said that other religions don't preach "caring for your fellow human being". And all of the leaders I mentioned with all their nations belonged to one or another religions. In my opinion, no religion makes you more or less warlike or obeidient.

Yes that's what I mean.

 

Religion has been used as a tool throughout the ages by war leaders to guide the misguided masses to war or slaughter. Look at the Armenian genocide.

 

And you are not completely right by saying that no religion makes you more or less warlike. In the Bible and the Koran there is a general hostility towards people who don't believe. They are lesser beings, and they should all convert to the 'true faith'. While in other religions, such as Buddhism, people are motivated to respect ALL human beings, regardless of their faith. That's the reason why all the major religious wars were fought by Christians and Moslems. They're just not as tolerant as other religions.

Edited January 30, 2004 by gurgen

[axel]

While in other religions, such as Buddhism, people are motivated to respect ALL human beings, regardless of their faith. That's the reason why all the major religious wars were fought by Christians and Moslems. They're just not as tolerant as other religions.

 

This statement is utterly false, as far as Christianity is concerned.

 

Inasmuch as the earthly and visible Church is not the fullness and completeness of the whole Church which the Lord has appointed to appear at the final judgment of all creation, she acts and knows only within her own limits; and (according to the words of Paul the Apostle, to the Corinthians, 1 Cor. 5. 12) does not judge the rest of mankind, and only looks upon those as excluded, that is to say, not belonging to her, who exclude themselves. The rest of mankind, whether alien from the Church, or united to her by ties which God has not willed to reveal to her, she leaves to the judgment of the great day. The Church on earth judges for herself only, according to the grace of the Spirit, and the freedom granted her through Christ, inviting also the rest of mankind to the unity and adoption of God in Christ; but upon those who do not hear her appeal she pronounces no sentence, knowing the command of her Saviour and Head, not to judge another man's servant (Rom. 14. 4).

 

(The Church is one)

Edited January 30, 2004 by axel

[grig75]

Yes that's what I mean.

 

Religion has been used as a tool throughout the ages by war leaders to guide the misguided masses to war or slaughter. Look at the Armenian genocide.

 

And you are not completely right by saying that no religion makes you more or less warlike. In the Bible and the Koran there is a general hostility towards people who don't believe. They are lesser beings, and they should all convert to the 'true faith'. While in other religions, such as Buddhism, people are motivated to respect ALL human beings, regardless of their faith. That's the reason why all the major religious wars were fought by Christians and Moslems. They're just not as tolerant as other religions.

The religion has been used, you are absolutely right about that. However, it has been used to push somebodies ideology, which is warlike. But I can't agree with you that religion itself makes you more or less warlike or submissive.

And I absolutely agree with 2 last comments from Alex.

You brought Buddhism as an example. OK. Look what they did with Tibet. It was not even different religion. Yes, they were communists, who did that. Communism is an ideology, not a religion. Religion is used to gather people together, and act to push their ideology.

[Arpa]

Well Arpa, I wonder where you actually stand. In fact, your position seems quite paradoxical to me. You accuse christianity of fostering slavishness, while it doesn't, yet you seem to show some complacency towards other sectarian groups that do (evangelists, mormons, jehovah's witnesses...).

As far as I am concerned this is the end of this thread unless you are willing and able to repond to the original intent. It must be my poor command of English but I have not understood one word you have said so far.

 

Once again, to remind that this thread was posted under the subject topic of International, meaning "between nations", you chose to bring inane arguments about religion and theology. In case you may not have noticed this forum does have topics under those catgories which I seldom read.

 

Unless and until you come back with fantastically good news announcing that the "orthodox" Church has established a department of Foreign Ministry, mind the word "ministry" and that the church, orthodox or not, is training an army of missionaries to invade our lost lands in search of those willing and wishing to come back to ther Mother Church, then this thread is considered closed.

 

In the meantime go to my next post (under Hamshen)about the nostalgia that some of our lost brothers are having.

 

Typical Armenian. If we can't hit the eshek we hit the saddle.

[bellthecat]

Religion has been used as a tool throughout the ages by war leaders to guide the misguided masses to war or slaughter. Look at the Armenian genocide.

That's the standard excuse.

 

Strange, isn't it, that whenever religious types commit attrocities, other religious types quickly pop up to defend their religion saying things like "but that wasn't true Christianity", or "but these people have corrupted the true message of Islam" or "but they are just peasants who don't know the true values of Hinduism".

 

Maybe there is a deep hole in the ground somewhere in which lives the one man in the world who is a true Muslim, or a dark cave somewhere in which lives the one man in the world who is a true Christian - if there is, then perhaps they should go out and start to share their perfect understanding of their religion with their fellow co-religionists.

[Sasun]

Steve, religious people are not perfect by the standards of their religion or other standards. As if non-religious people are perfect?

If you want to make a judgement about a religion the best thing is to study its teachings and not the followers.

[Arpa]

In line with the first post under this topic.

Reminiscent of the scenario in the wake of the big one in Gumri and Spitak?

 

Let us also juxtapose this posted by Gamavor that went all but unnoticed.

http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showt...t=0entry84021

 

When Jusus told his disciples that He woul;d make them "Fishers of Men"- did He mean in "murky waters"?

Matt.4

[18] And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

[19] And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

 

"Pghtor jri mej dzuk vorsal"?

 

Christianity Today

Feb 6 2004

 

Quake Opens Door to Gospel

 

How Christians are trying to ease tensions in the Islamic Republic.

By John W. Kennedy | posted 02/06/2004

 

 

Christian ministries are walking through a door thrown open by the

deadly December 26 earthquake. They are working on improving

relationships with Iranians, and taking advantage of opportunities to

demonstrate the Christian faith to them.

 

The December 26 temblor in Bam, 630 miles southeast of the Iranian

capital Tehran, killed an estimated 34,000 people and injured 30,000

others. The Iranian government waived visa restrictions, allowing aid

from Christian agencies and elsewhere.

 

John Schenk, communications manager for World Vision, says working

side by side with Iranians in the relief effort will ease tensions

between Muslims and Christians.

 

"Ideologies and politics have not been part of the discussions,"

Schenk said. "It's been about the shock they've suffered and what

motivates us to help."

 

Clive Calver, president of World Relief, said the opening is

unprecedented. "The church has something to offer that is more

valuable than food or blankets," Calver said from Bam. "We can pray

in the name of Jesus."

 

Still, Ken Isaacs, director of projects for Samaritan's Purse, said

opportunities for evangelism must wait. "The heart of our ministry is

sharing the mandates of Christ," Isaacs said. "But this is an Islamic

society. We're not preaching."

 

Evangelical Protestants in Iran number around 30,000, a majority of

them Muslim converts. Muslims who convert can face intimidation,

jailing, and even death. Iranian Christians International in Colorado

Springs reported that there are around 200,000 ethnic Armenian or

Assyrian Christians. They include communities of Presbyterians,

Anglicans, Orthodox, Catholics, and Pentecostals.

 

Calver said Iranian evangelicals across the country have been at the

forefront of the relief effort, because there has been no organized

church in Bam.

 

Evangelicals "moved out of their safety zones" after the earthquakes,

Calver said. "With people of this spiritual caliber, nothing will

stand in the way of their being faithful to the Lord Jesus."

 

An Iranian pastor in exile who has regular contact with Christians in

the country said 28 recent converts lived in Bam, but 25 died in the

quake; the other three suffered injuries. Most became Christians as a

result of radio ministry. They had been meeting in a home.

 

A minister in Tehran told Christianity Today that Iranians are very

open to the gospel. Iranian Christians International guesses as many

as 100,000 people have become Christians as a result of radio,

satellite television, or Internet evangelism. Yet those commitments

sometimes fade.

 

Only 3,000 evangelicals lived in the country in 1979. Missionaries

were expelled after the Islamic revolution, and as many as 90 percent

of the churches were closed. The exiled pastor told CT that weekly

church services now are held in fewer than 20 church buildings in the

country. While there are an estimated 150 house churches in Iran,

security concerns often curtail gatherings. Several Christian leaders

have disappeared or been murdered, including four Assemblies of God

pastors in the 1990s.

Here;

http://www.iran-e-azad.org/english/ethrelrep.html

Edited February 7, 2004 by Arpa

[gurgen]

This statement is utterly false, as far as Christianity is concerned.

 

Inasmuch as the earthly and visible Church is not the fullness and completeness of the whole Church which the Lord has appointed to appear at the final judgment of all creation, she acts and knows only within her own limits; and (according to the words of Paul the Apostle, to the Corinthians, 1 Cor. 5. 12) does not judge the rest of mankind, and only looks upon those as excluded, that is to say, not belonging to her, who exclude themselves. The rest of mankind, whether alien from the Church, or united to her by ties which God has not willed to reveal to her, she leaves to the judgment of the great day. The Church on earth judges for herself only, according to the grace of the Spirit, and the freedom granted her through Christ, inviting also the rest of mankind to the unity and adoption of God in Christ; but upon those who do not hear her appeal she pronounces no sentence, knowing the command of her Saviour and Head, not to judge another man's servant (Rom. 14. 4).

 

(The Church is one)

You are right, but surely you do not mean to say that in the Bible there is not a passage that paints non-believers as lesser beings? This is a fact. That this passage can be explained in different ways does not make it any less provoking.

Edited February 8, 2004 by gurgen