Armenian-Georgian relations

[Guest]

As much as many of you hate me and think I am a know-it-all, I really learn a lot from all of you, and I thank you for it. Enlighten me about why Armenians and Georgians, two Orthodox Christian peoples, seem to dislike each other so much. Again, it seems that Armenians and IRanian moslems get along a lot better. Why is this? What is the history between Armenians and Georgians? I have only met one Georgian(half at that) in my life. Also Iranyar, I am still meaning to visit the Georgian forum, but I am not sure I have much to say as I know very little about them.

[Guest]

Glad that you want to learn something. 'cause there are some people (in many ways like you) who not only know nothing, but also don't care or want to learn, plus are proud of their ignorance.

Anyway here's what I can tell you from my experience and knowledge. First of all let me correct you - Armenians are not Orthodox (Georgians are). I don't how this fallacy got out and spread in the world. I'm not a big expert in religion, but one thing I know for sure - our church is called Armenian Apostolic Church. Yes, the Orthodox church is the closest to ours by theology and rites, but it's not the same.

As for Georgians, they used to belong to Apostolic church, but they converted into Orthodox when Russians overtook Caucasus (you know, it was "politically correct", like it was for some of them to become muslims and call themselves Adjars). Relationship between Armenians and Georgians is not bad, and I would say "dislike" is a too strong word. For this many centuries we've been neighbors, but never had a war - just few small conflicts. However, I would trust a Georgian in minor things, not in major. They can abuse or even betray you in a spur of a moment, if it's beneficial for them. For example during the worst years of blockade, no cargo could pass to Armenia thru Georgia without being overtaxed, damaged or robbed. When our government complained about this, Shevardnadze responded "Georgia is not a passage trail ("prohodnoy dvor" in Russian - has a negative meaning) for you." When talking to Georgians, I could tell that Hayastanci Armenians are OK for them, but they hate Armenians who live in Georgia. I don't know why - their capital Tbilisi (Tiflis) was built by Armenians, they used to be best and most loyal noblemen to Georgian kings, and so on. May be it's envy or something - most Georgians are very boastful and barely tolerate if someone else in some aspect is more successful. Try to tell them that their aplphabet was created by Mesrop Mashtots, they will ostracise you and take it as a worst insult. Another thing - these christians find it's OK to provide shelter, medical attention, a corridor for transportation of weapons and mercenaries to Chechen guerillas who kill their Orthodox Russian brothers.

My opinion is - Georgians are great people to have a party and drink with, to be a guest or host of, to get or give small help and stuff like that - in normal situation. But never turn your back to them, especially if something extraordinary is going on. You may very well get a "kinzhal" in your back.

[Guest]

Dear Ahura Mazda,

 

you are correct the Armenian church is called armenian apostolic church, in the soviet census as they make difference between orthodox (like Russians) and Armenian apostholic church, in another situations (for example in the west, ) they don't make separate classification for the different Eastern churches(think of coptic, Assyrians, etc...) and they call them all Orthodox as the most of their dates and rituals are similar it is understandable that they do it. But the Armenian church is also known as gregorian or monophysite.

The Georgians claim that their orthodox religion is introduced by the byzantine orthodox church, via a women called st. Nana.

Also they have another view about Tbilisi, as Tbili in Georgian means warm and Tbilisi is a noun in Genetive form of Tbili (=some) so roughly Tbilisi means the warm place, and it is understandable because Tbilisi lies in a valley and is much warmer than the other Georgian towns and cities on the mountains.

Their problems is not onley with the Armenians of Georgia, they dislike Armenians in General, they see Armenians and Ossetians as the agents of Russia. They think that the Russians (and before them the Iranian shiite moslems) allways prefered Armenians rather than Georgians in the better positions and the Georgians got discriminated in their own lands)

I think also that the Georgians in the history have been looser regarding religion, many georgian kings became Muslim, to be praised by the Shah, and the Georgians under the Turks became sunni-Muslims. also my Georgian ancestors became shiite moslems, to gain political and military good positions in Iran during the safavides.

 

The Georgians towards me were not backstabbing, but they become very cold and ignorant if you don't agree with their ethnic views.

I am first of all Iranian (although I have also European passport) and don't deny that I have ancestors from Georgia, but honestley I have another menthality and will not stab you by xanjali

[Guest]

Armenian church is Orthodox. It's full name is:

Haykakan UGHAPAR(Orthodox) Araqelakan Lusavorchakan Ekegheci.

But it is different from Greek-Russian-Georgian Orthodox Church. There are some teological and especially ceremonial differences.

[Guest]

Yesterday the Georgians said that the armenians are ungrateful guests on the Georgian lands. Their expresident Zviad Gamsakhurdia, was trying to create an ethnic homogeneous Georgia, empty of Armenians! They are not happy about their historical relationship with the Iranian moslems and Armenians, because they think they are western (which they are not!) and their neighbours remind them of reality. Farsisteve just come there and we support each other. They have boycotted me because I told them eventhough I have ancestors from Georgia, but I am Iranian. Then I brought the minorities right's issues, and they told me, Iranyar you are Armenian!!! otherwise you did not waste your time to defend the Armenians. They accuse the Armenians of vandalism of the Georgian churches, using violence against the Georgians, and have committed genocide on the Georgians in Abkhazia.

I try to learn them that in Iran ethnicity is not very important as in the ex-Soviet union and they should live with another ethnicities in peace, like us in Iran, but unfortunately they don't understand it and amazingly accuse me of Racism, and Imperialism !!!!!!!

 

so farsisteve there are a lot which we can talk there!

 

[This message has been edited by Iranyar (edited July 23, 2000).]

[Guest]

Hope the following translation of mine of a passage from Hovhannes Tumanyan's "Bright Pages" (v.4, Armenia Publishing House, Yerevan, 1969, p.302) may help to shed some light on the topic. Again, this is a nonprofessional translation, but I have tried my bast to be as precise as only I could. Here it goes:

 

 

"In 1904, as a result of an unsuccessful war, the entire Russia was troubled. Scared from the ghost of revolution, Russian bureaucracy made up an evil game for the nations, wishing to divide them and keep them busy.

 

It executed in this direction in Transcaucasia.

 

In Transcaucasia they needed to position against each other three nations – the Armenian, Georgian and Turkish.

 

The past experience had shown that it was impossible to accomplish confrontation of Armenian and Georgian nations.

 

Yes, there had been some sad events, but those event had been able only to temporarily cool off, stir up, poison the relations of these nations, and even this on the level of upper classes, and at most the poison had reached the tongs of activists and publicists, but they have never been able to deliver that poison to the isides of the Armenian and Georgian nations. 1920"

[Guest]

In 1918 dashnak sution went on war with the Georgian mensheviks, The Georgians, don't like 1-ARMENIANS 2-RUSSIANS 3-GEORGIANS OF IRAN.

B.T.W please there are no "Turks" in transcaucasia, if they are they should get the hell out of there!

 

please help me friends, I'm alone at the Georgian forum, with so much Georgians allways pissing me off.

 

[This message has been edited by Iranyar (edited September 02, 2000).]

[Guest]

Iranyar joon,

Gaumarjobats bijo,

One of my Georgian friends told me that if you can pronounce "bakghakghi tskghalshi kghikghinebs", you can speak Georgian.

Give me the link!

 

[This message has been edited by Berj (edited September 03, 2000).]

[Guest]

Berji, chemo somx megebaro gaumarjos.

 

I didn't understood the last word but I think it is gaq'inebs= get frozen

 

so I think it is baq'aq'i ts'qalshi gaq'inebs. means the frog will get frozen in the water.

 

q is the same q as in Arabic or Turkic. ' means a glotal stop.

Baq'aq'i = frog

ts'q'ali= water

ts'q'alshi= in water

q'ineba= to freeze

gaq'inebs= wil get frozen.

 

B.T.W Gamarjoba, gaumarjo, gagimarjos, gamarjobat, privet, dosvidanye, cu later alligator, or as they call it bijo, it should be bich'o! onley use Georgia's Georgians.

 

I tried to learn their language and talk with them like them, but after I saw how hostile they are, I tend to speak Iranian Georgian.

 

BTW I just figured out that those Georgians indeed say q'iq'inebs. I'll ask some Georgian Iranians if we also sometime use this word or is it again exclusively the Georgia's Georgians privilage!

 

[This message has been edited by Iranyar (edited September 03, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iranyar:
In 1918 dashnak sution went on war with the Georgian mensheviks, The Georgians, don't like 1-ARMENIANS 2-RUSSIANS 3-GEORGIANS OF IRAN.
B.T.W please there are no "Turks" in transcaucasia, if they are they should get the hell out of there!

please help me friends, I'm alone at the Georgian forum, with so much Georgians allways pissing me off.

[This message has been edited by Iranyar (edited September 02, 2000).]

---

Just for the sake of the accuracy of the historic record...

In 1918 Dashnaktsutiun didn’t go on war against the Georgian Mensheviks. In 1918, counting on the fact that Armenia was consumed defending itself against the Turks, and building the institutions of state self-governing, the Georgian regular Army attacked Armenia, with the purpose of annexation of the Northern provinces of Armenia. They were well within the Armenian territory (some 50-80km), when Armenian government started to take measures, and sent General Drastamat Kananian to rebuff the Georgeans. Within few days, the Armenian Regular Army (half fed, half armed and half dressed) was storming Tiflis. They were persuaded not to take Tiflis by storm and retreat by the Ambasador of Germany in Georgia.

Another source of bitterness between Armenia and Georgia is the fact of annexation of the Akhlakalaki and surrounding districts to Georgia. The fact of the matter was that when the Russian Empire collapsed, it was just a matter of who could first manage to introduce its army on this territory, as to claim soveragnty there. Georgians just were quicker in this district. Who did this district belong historically is just a matter of how far in history do we go. Clearly, if we go far enough, it was historic Armenian territory. For a short period of time (during the period of Quinn Thamar of Georgia, these regions were subordinated to Georgia. The Armenian population has always been a dominant majority in the region.

In modern days, I have heard only one argument from the ones that I have personally interacted with, as why do the Georgians hate Armenians. It turns out because the best houses in Tbilisi belong to Armenians (in Havlabar).

[Guest]

dear MJ.

 

as I know the Georgians have another story/interpretations! BTW what is the Armenian name of Axalkalaki?

[Guest]

I understand that. Georgians too, like Armenians like their image more than their real essence. I don't know if there is an Armenian name for Akhalkalaki. This doesn't mean there isn't, nor it means that I am claiming that there is. I just don't know.

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited September 03, 2000).]

[Guest]

Some Links (From Encarta & Britannica):

 

Azerbaijan http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/...+108701,00.html http://encarta.msn.com/find/print.asp?&pg=...1983&sc=11&pt=1

 

Georgia http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/...+108703,00.html http://encarta.msn.com/find/print.asp?&pg=...4c000&sc=9&pt=1

 

 

Armenia http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/...+108699,00.html http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/...+1+9512,00.html http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/...ly%5Fid,00.html http://encarta.msn.com/find/concise.asp?ti...555976&sid=1#s1

[Guest]

Berj, Ararat,

 

Good Job!

[Guest]

Akhalkalaki was a part of northern Gougarq province during Arshkouni and Bagratouni dynasties. Gougarq also included the present Lori and a part of Tavoush marzes of Armenia and was governed by Gougarats Bdeshkh (bdeshkh-duke of bordering province). In 9-th century one of the brothers of king Ashot Bagratouni became the bdeshkh of Gougarq and his inherits kept the title until the fall of the Bagratouni kingdom in 1041. After the seljuk conquest all the family of Gougarq Bagratounies moved to Georgia and after one of them established the dinasty of Bagrationies in Georgia. Queen Tamar was also from that family. And also, her both amirspalasars (conestables) were Armenians, Ivane and Zaqare Zakaryans. Half of her army were Armenians brought from different regions of Armenia by Zakaryan brothers. They fought seljuks from the territory of Georgia and even managed to liberate a big part of Armenia with Ani, the capital of Bagratouni Kingdom.

[Guest]

Hi,

 

Just for information: Georgian and Armenian churches separated before Russians even became Orthodox.

 

Regards, Siko Janashia

[Guest]

Go on, Siko_j. Share with us your thinking

[Guest]

I'll try, but about our churches its not my thinking - its the history of separation of Armenian and Georgian churches

[Guest]

Siko_j, you are right. The separation has not been just between the Armenian and Georgian Churches. It has been between almost all Christian churches in the 5th Century, after the Khalkedonian meeting of all Church heads, except the Armenians, who didn't participate in the meeting because as they said, there was war going on in Armenia, and the roads where blocked. But some historians claim that they used this argument as an excuse, so that not to take sides in the meeting, and maintain their independence.

 

P.S. Let em also, with a slight delay, say - Welcome to our Forum.

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 22, 2000).]

[Guest]

Hi MJ,

 

Have you been in Tbilisi - then you have not seen The best Houses and you have never been in Avlabar

 

Regards Siko Janashia

[Guest]

Thanks for the welkome,

 

I just thought that it would be better for you to talk with a Georgian about Georgia as for me is always better to talk with Armenians about Armenia

 

Regards Siko Janashia

[Guest]

Siko,

 

I am not going to argue about it. I have only reiterated what a Georgian friend of mine has told me once. I have no personal opinion on the matter, since I have indeed been in Tbilisi for few hours only.

 

But you know, it is not a principal issue for me. I have referenced this friend of mine (Guram) just to indicate that I have been trying to understand why do some Georgians feel that negative about Armenians, and have not been able to get compelling answers.

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 22, 2000).]

[Guest]

My pleasure

[Guest]

good,

 

it was just emberrasing along other things said here.

 

I think it should be clarified in this thread:

 

Georgians do not dislike Russians Iraniars or Armenians but Armenian, Russian or Iranian Politics - thats why Georgians "dislike" more Armenians in Georgia than in Armenia itself - because from political viewpoint those cause a lot of problems all the time.

 

The history that you learn and the one that we do are very different so it is very hard to argue about it. It was always so during the whole history of both nations - so I would stop refering to history as a prove of nowadays desires - that will not lead us to a good end. Then Armenians will say that Georgians are backstabing them and Georgians will say that Armenians do that. This kind of relationship has no future.

 

Regards Siko Janashia

[Guest]

Dorudebi Siko, chemi kartveli megobari mobrdzande es forumshi, exla ak ori Kartvelebi arian (Sorry webmaster it was just greeting to Siko.

 

Siko MJ has very positive views about the Georgians. Actually all people here have been nice to me wether they see me as Georgian or as Georgian Iranian.