DominO123 Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Yeh, but its those kind of posts which you can't cut in pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Yeh, but its those kind of posts which you can't cut in pieces. If you can't cut in pieces then I won't guarantee that I can read it. Think about it, how am I going to digest if you can't cut it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Oh yeh, I almost forgot, you still owe me one digestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Oh yeh, I almost forgot, you still owe me one digestion. Yeah I know I was hoping you would forget... since you didn't forget then you have to wait (until you forget ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 I hope I am not ruining any party here by saying.” You and whose army”-from Shrek! I am sorry but realistically Armenia or Diaspora cannot achieve or force Turkey to any reparations or land claim latter is just plain imagination. No country ever willingly gave conquered land back without a fight and to weaker, smaller opponent. The best thing we can do is improving Armenia’s standing any possible way we can so like TB said reverse the immigration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Armat, I am not questioning your logic, but strong and weak are relative terms that change over time. It is not just imagination, history has shown that the strong can become weak and disappear, and the small can become bigger. Nothing to get excited about though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeForChange Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Have you guys considered the power that the Jewish lobby has in Washington? I've heard several times that the USA is Israel's puppet. Why can't Diaspora and Armenia work together, as the Jews have successfully done? You guys seem to think that it can only be one or the other. Sasun, I think what you are referring to is a quote from Horace: "Many shall be restored that are now fallen, and many shall fall that now are in honor". The same can be said about the stock market, by the way (off topic, I know). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Sasun, I think what you are referring to is a quote from Horace: "Many shall be restored that are now fallen, and many shall fall that now are in honor". The same can be said about the stock market, by the way (off topic, I know). It is funny that after posting I was also thinking about stock market and corporations. But as to the quote, it is just a coincidence: first time I hear that quote. One example to the point: In 1985 hardly anyone could imagine that the Soviet Union would be no more in a matter of a few years. There were a few dissident voices talking about an independent Armenia and everyone else would think they were crazy. What happened? We didn't even struggle, we just got our independence back unexpectedly and without effort. (Armat, is it a dajavue or did we discuss this topic before on the panarmenina forum? In fact, you said what you are saying now, and I said what I am saying now. Isn't it funny? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Armat, I am not questioning your logic, but strong and weak are relative terms that change over time. It is not just imagination, history has shown that the strong can become weak and disappear, and the small can become bigger. Nothing to get excited about though Sasun jan. I think we had this discussion before. This is how I see it since we are being honest.We know Turkey presently has more soldiers then the RoA with the latest weaponry. We know how fanatical Turks are when it comes to land, nationalism etc. We already know that Turks never apologize nor admit facts if it does not suit them right? So where do we come in. Two million people who can barely survive and we waste precious resources chasing goats.What our dear genocide victims I think rather see that we multiply and make prosperous Armenia and not stagnate in the past, which allows no solutions and no closure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 (edited) By the way I also mentioned very simple fact.If western Armenia was given to us tommorow how many of us are willing to leave our comfi lives and relocate to w. Armenia?Isn't Artsagh a reality check?How many of our super nationalists relocated there? less then a thousand!!! Edited November 11, 2003 by Armat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Sasun jan. I think we had this discussion before. This is how I see it since we are being honest.We know Turkey presently has more soldiers then the RoA with the latest weaponry. We know how fanatical Turks are when it comes to land, nationalism etc. We already know that Turks never apologize nor admit facts if it does not suit them right? So where do we come in. Two million people who can barely survive and we waste precious resources chasing goats.What our dear genocide victims I think rather see that we multiply and make prosperous Armenia and not stagnate in the past, which allows no solutions and no closure.Armat jan, you are talking about November 11, 2003. Correct? You are right, we cannot expect anything tangible from Turkey. I am talking about the indefinite future that must be planned and thought about today. I am not saying in any way that we should put forward land claims today or tomorrow, and I am sure that Turks will not recognize our genocide any time soon, and more realistically they will never recognize it. But we can exert pressure in other ways and get concessions. I mean, we are on the loosing side, it is not like we are planning an attack against Turkey there should be no illusions about it. There is the blockade and the Artsax problem where Turkey is putting pressure on us. So what is wrong with using the opportunity of the genocide recognition and embarassing Turkey here and there, making their EU plans more difficult if we can, lobbying in the US against its interests, acting with the Greeks, etc. These are things that do bother them and they are afraid of it, certainly not terrified, but they do want to avoid such hurdles. Therefore, they will be willing to do something about it which will benefit us. It is plain politics, it would be foolish not to use such somewhat effective tools against our opponent/enemy. These tools are available today and we should use them today. There are no moral reasons to do this but it also happens to be moral for us.This is one strategy that is being done now and we should do more. One day there may be means and ways of making land claims more realistically. We should not dismiss the possibility of that happening just because it takes a little imagination. Who can be sure that it won't happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 By the way I also mentioned very simple fact.If western Armenia was given to us tommorow how many of us are willing to leave our comfi lives and relocate to w. Armenia?Isn't Artsagh a reality check?How many of our super nationalists relocated there? less then a thousand!!! It is a valid question. My answer is, give me the land and the robbed money and compensation for all property with the accumulated interest, I will find tons of people to relocate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 It is a valid question. My answer is, give me the land and the robbed money and compensation for all property with the accumulated interest, I will find tons of people to relocate Why must we wait and sit and beg for someone (who we don't know/like & to whom we refuse to speak) to 'give' us money/land etc. ?? What is stopping us from rebuilding on our own? From collaborating (diaspora/RoA) to organize our own systems, in our own country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Why must we wait and sit and beg for someone (who we don't know/like & to whom we refuse to speak) to 'give' us money/land etc. ?? What is stopping us from rebuilding on our own? From collaborating (diaspora/RoA) to organize our own systems, in our own country? I believe nothing is stopping us but something is really slowing us down. I think Armat means to have lands back but nobody willing to live there would be pointless. I believe if we do get lands back the chances are we will also have the means to get a lot of money. BTW, that money I am talking a bout does belong to us (note, I am not after that money personally ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 By the way Armat, I am not sure if you know this: people who are re-populating the liberated lands in Lachin and Kebajar are sponsored by the government (not sure Artsakh or Armenia proper). They get some start-up money, a cow or two, sheep, etc. Not really a big deal by global standards but does make a difference. The generous nature and fertile land are also a factor but I am willing to think that without government sponsorship those lands would remain essentially unpopulated. Unfortunately, these are people from other parts of Armenia including Yerevan but not other countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Lands will always remain unpopulated unless people have a solid reason to relocate. Money is part of that - but more importantly opportunity, security, and hope. None of those things are currently available in Armenian proper (at least not for those relocating to Armenian) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 (edited) Vava dont you think we should worry about depopulation of Armenian more at this point in our history? And let’s start by expressing real thoughts concerning that, what do you think? Edited November 11, 2003 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Sasun Jan, it could be perhaps my age. I am more pragmatic and realistic now then you know when and knowing human nature takes time. It is not pessimism but rather I refuse to get sucked into false dreams.Our revolutionaries also had dreams but guess what end results were catastrophic! Yes it is easy to say this now in retrospect but I am constantly being reminded by everyone that we should learn from our mistakes well have we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 (edited) Have you guys considered the power that the Jewish lobby has in Washington? I've heard several times that the USA is Israel's puppet. Why can't Diaspora and Armenia work together, as the Jews have successfully done? You guys seem to think that it can only be one or the other. Sasun, I think what you are referring to is a quote from Horace: "Many shall be restored that are now fallen, and many shall fall that now are in honor". The same can be said about the stock market, by the way (off topic, I know).Dear TimeForChange, I think you imply that those of us that do not see their future in Armenia can still be useful, and be good Armenians. I see several problems with it. First, we are nowhere near Jews in terms of overall success, intellectual sophistication, and drive. It is not a matter of time. There are profound cultural differences, into which I will not go at the moment. This relative lack of horsepower seriously compromises the "reason for existence" of an extensive diaspora. Losing 95% of more than half of Armenians in a couple of generations is not a good price to pay to have a "strong lobby" that will at best be a distant second to the Jewish lobby. And for what? So we can keep irritating the Turks? Hardly worth the price, when the price is the cultural identity of my descendants. Second, the choice to remove Armenia from your family's future "in order to do greater good as a member of the diasporan lobby" is simply a useful narcotic. It has a heavy dose of pretense. Armenian culture does not have the strength to keep successive generations in orbit. It is equivalent to giving away your progeny to the host culture. You may or may not live to see the final act of handing over; but it is a virtual certainty. And the third problem is my personal objection to the idea of making another country Armenians' puppet (not that there is any chance of that). I don't want any other country to become my puppet. I don't want to fool innocent hillbilies into fighting my wars. I don't want to "control" other nations. But that's just me. Before you start feeling that I am being hostile, let me say that I do understand where you are coming from very well, and I do sympathize. It's just that I refuse to come to your conclusion. I cannot provide a nice and neat solution; but I also cannot fool myself. Apparently I am too smart for myself . All the same, whatever we may think theoretically, we may end up doing essentially the same thing, namely giving away our descendants to our respective host cultures, after leading relatively painless and pointless lives. Best wishes in your soul searching,TB ----------minor edit done: I inserted an "I" where it was missing. Edited November 11, 2003 by Twilight Bark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Vava dont you think we should worry about depopulation of Armenian more at this point in our history? And let’s start by expressing real thoughts concerning that, what do you think? Edward, that was exactly my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 Oh boy, I came here to read, and many posts to read before answering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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