America-Hye Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 Hey MJ, I just opened my copy of the Armenian Reporter to find that Nubar Dorian has put you in your place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 Get out of my face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 Well, any details of what the issue at hand is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 I have no idea. But I would still enjoy if the you know what gets out of my face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted November 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 Sip, Issue dated November 8, 2003. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeForChange Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 You guys seem to know each other so well that one would swear that you played "Kentig" together when you were kids. Would you care to tell the rest of us what this childish post is all about? We don't all have a copy of the Armenian Reporter, you know. Maybe you should create a separate section entitled "Personal conflicts" instead of posting this in the "international" section! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 Does anyone have this article? If not I will close this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted November 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 I will attempt to download it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted November 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 (edited) Here it is. Edit: I fixed the article - but the links/images won't work, as it's taken from their siteArticle.html Edited November 9, 2003 by vava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 Dr. Acemoglu justly claims that only the government of Armenia can, must and forever should conduct ANY negotiations with Turkey for compensation, reconciliation, forgiveness or whatever. I have yet to understand, what the hell the Independent republic of Armenia, which was part of Russian Armenia, has anything to do with negotiations related to the genocide. THis is the business of the diaspora, Armenia is not involved in anyway and SHOULD NOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 I understand what you are saying Domino...however I disagree with both of you - and think that the Genocide is an issue for all Armenians... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 I understand what you are saying Domino...however I disagree with both of you - and think that the Genocide is an issue for all Armenians... This is a simplistic answer thoth... the republic of Armenia has recognised bounderies, it is an independent State, the body, the government etc... which represent the republic has absolutly no business on this issue... if Armenia has any business, explain me why it should? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 It is an issue for all Armenians everywhere (and also - to a degree an issue for all people). And many Armenians who live in Armenia are genocide decendants...and the issue could use/needs all the advocacy it can get - and nation States - particualrly ones with an affected constituency - have means and leverage...individuals and advocacy groups etc can only do so much. We should not be turning away our greatest allies in this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 Domino - by your logic nations such as the United States, France, Canada etc also have no business being involved/taking a stand on this issue. Can you explain how you might support these nations passing genocide resolutions and such - but say Armenia should but out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeForChange Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 I agree somewhat with Thoth and Domino. What is a supposedly Worldwide Armenian Organization based in Moscow (of all places) going to do for Diasporans? I want an Armenia where I can speak and listen to the Armenian that my grandparents spoke: Western Armenian. I don't see why I should forget it and do as if it never existed and adapt to Eastern Armenian, as some have strongly suggested in this forum. So far, I am not convinced that either this Moscow-based organization or the Republic of Armenia wants Western Armenian to survive. It is up to them to do what's necessary to earn my trust. MY greatgrandparents got slaughtered in the genocide, not theirs! Their greatgrandparents or grandparents were probably on the Russian side of the border. They haven't suffered as much (which explains why Armenians in Armenia don't realize as much as I do the importance of marrying an Armenian). Ironically, my greatgrandparents suffered, and now I'm considered by some in Armenia as an "odar" because my parents don't come from Soviet Armenia. Sure, I could get the Armenian passport, thanks largely to my last name, but no right to vote, because deep down I'm not really considered an Armenian by the Republic. One way to earn my trust would be to put this organization in a country where Western Armenians are a majority (e.g. France). Another would be to give more importance to the concerns of Western Armenians (e.g. language), instead of just accusing them of not giving enough money to Armenia. When the Armenian government will have understood that, only then would I agree that they negotiate for land claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 OK TFC - I'm not going to argue with your post per se..but I just want to point out that Armenian has stated that it has no land claims (against Turkey) relating (directly) to the genocide...(a correct ...and very astute) position IMO.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 if Armenia has any business, explain me why it should? A large portion of Armenia's population is comprised of descendants of Genocide survivors (me included). Besides, the Genocide issue is mentioned in Armenia's declaration of independence, which in its turn is refered to in the Constitution. The result is that Genocide, as well as Karabagh are constitutional matters for any Armenian government. And no government can avoid dealing with it. In my opinion, the Diaspora would deal with it more effectively, because at present Armenia is in weeker position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 Thoth, I am not interested right now to start a conversation about the topic since i have some things to do... just one point, ... the only real reason why we are forcing those countries to be involved, is to fight Turkish stance, so the comparaison is not accurate. Armenia on the other hand is a nation, with people... Armenia can't even have a fair election, more than half of the population... so I think there is many serious issues for Armenia and its population to deal with other than starting with the never ending issue of the genocide... the fight is on the accdemic and juridic level, where Armenia has no place there right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 Domino - while I don't at all disagree with your points - I stand by mine... No reason to elaborate - I understand your position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 This Noubar Dorian person sounds boorish to me. To wrap up what I think (may or may not converge with what is stated above) – Land vs. land = land vs. territory Individuals’ inheritances (land, other immovables, liquid stuff, etc.) are to be sought out by these individuals, aren’t they?Armenia is related to not have claims over Turkey’s territory, but, even if, this can be traced back to Kars and Ardahan which were handed over by those that didn’t own them, much in the same way as Karabagh was made part of Azerbaijan – no? Otherwise, “the return of Western Armenia to the Republic of Armenia” is a pipe dream.What this Noubar person relates MJ having said – that Armenians should contemplate their responsibility in the genocide – I am not sure that I am aware of exactly what MJ may mean. However, MJ doesn’t mean that the genocide was committed by Armenians. That even this Noubar person should have suspected.My take on reconciliation with the diaspora vs. reconciliation with RoA – for one thing, who represents the diaspora? A multiple number of organizations, but which will the state/government of Turkey face? Which one has the capacity to confront Turkey? None. Even a legitimate body from Armenia may or may not be able to put this issue on the table, for what it is worth, for a variety of reasons, be they strategic, economic, etc., interests. Certainly the diaspora isn’t burdened with such, but it has other baggage which incapacitates it, including but not limited to what MJ calls “reverse association with Turks” on the part of the more vocal, rabid individuals. Furthermore, Armenians’ future lies in Armenia, in terms of continuity, and the diaspora is sooner or later bound to dissolve. What then? Who will inherit the merits of the efforts and outcomes for the reconciliation and what use will it be put into?As far as these issues concerning all Armenians and furthermore all humanity are considered, I agree with just about all that has been said. Somewhere close to half of Armenia’s population has an ancestor back sometime who survived and witnessed the genocide, which implies involvement of RoA on behalf of this portion of the population as much as France, U.S., etc., are involved in one way or another for their tiny communities. I don’t think that any of the recognition can do anything to Turkey, except for being brought up at the EU table now and then, but we have yet to see what comes of that and be disappointed, I think, as the Armenian genocide issue is nowhere being close to the unresolved issue in Cyprus in priority and importance as far as compatibility within nations of the EU is concerned (Greece, Cyprus, and Turkey here). All the recognition does with regard to Turkey is inflame the denial on Turkey’s part more. This may have some positive consequences as more people may see through the BS, but it’s a drop in the ocean and perhaps past the point of diminishing [positive] return. What should really be aspired for is worldwide awareness of this and other similar issues, a good result in and of itself for the future and memory. Moreover, I think that the academic confrontations have little if anything to do with recognition on the parts of governments, which may or may not act in their own interests. (I fail to think what an interest in such may be, at least as far as any viable outcome vis-a-vis Turkey is concerned, although lack of interest in Turkey may be an option.) The existence of the confrontations is an outcome of Turkey’s denial and nothing more. It will not stop, but I do not opine that the diaspora, more apt for the job, should disengage – quite the contrary. Meanwhile, or despite it, there needs to be eye-opening of the middle-class intellect in Turkey. That can be done by none other than by or with the neighbour it is next to, IMO. That neighbour, which is there to stay, need not do anything to go out of its way – just be in the picture should Turkey allow it, I think. Even then, interactions I don’t think will be more than any interaction and “enlightening” Turkey has or has had with other neighbours – Greeks, Arabs, or love of Georgians. There are multiple levels and while they do not exclude the others they certainly don’t reinforce them. While I must say that after much thinking I don't have a clue as to what needs to be done and to what end (is anyone clear as to the ends? nobody is yet able to define Turco-Armenian relations), I just don't think it is right to confuse the urgencies of the moment with what is required by the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 Something I left out - while not all actions of RoA may have implications for the diaspora, the diaspora cannot deny and defy the acts at reconciliation that RoA may carry out. It can try, but it will be an exercise in futility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 What is a supposedly Worldwide Armenian Organization based in Moscow (of all places) going to do for Diasporans? I want an Armenia where I can speak and listen to the Armenian that my grandparents spoke: Western Armenian. I don't see why I should forget it and do as if it never existed and adapt to Eastern Armenian, as some have strongly suggested in this forum. So far, I am not convinced that either this Moscow-based organization or the Republic of Armenia wants Western Armenian to survive. It is up to them to do what's necessary to earn my trust. MY greatgrandparents got slaughtered in the genocide, not theirs! Their greatgrandparents or grandparents were probably on the Russian side of the border. They haven't suffered as much (which explains why Armenians in Armenia don't realize as much as I do the importance of marrying an Armenian). Ironically, my greatgrandparents suffered, and now I'm considered by some in Armenia as an "odar" because my parents don't come from Soviet Armenia. Sure, I could get the Armenian passport, thanks largely to my last name, but no right to vote, because deep down I'm not really considered an Armenian by the Republic. One way to earn my trust would be to put this organization in a country where Western Armenians are a majority (e.g. France). Another would be to give more importance to the concerns of Western Armenians (e.g. language), instead of just accusing them of not giving enough money to Armenia. When the Armenian government will have understood that, only then would I agree that they negotiate for land claims. TFC, With all due respect, your message totally lacks any merit. Regardless of what I think of the Worldwide Armenian Organization, Armenians in Moscow constitute Diaspora as much as those in Montreal and no one has given you the upper hand in this issue. Second, speaking of Western Armenia ... it is such a superficial category, especially when you speak of its "survival." What survival? When has it exist so that now it has to survive? As to your grandparents speaking Western Armenian, I suspect that they spoke Turkish rather Armenian. If they did speak Armenian, they must be a minority among Western Armenian. As to whose grandparents got slaughtered and whose grandparents survived, apparently you know nothing about the subject. Why don't you start learning about it beyond grandma stories? The rest of your message about "odars" and "passport" also indicate that you have entered a subject which you practically nothing about. In such cases, the best remedy is to listen, read and think a lot, before expressing opinions. I am suggesting this out of good intentions and have no desire to offend you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeForChange Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 Thanks MJ, I understand. I'm not going to pretend that I am an expert on the matter, because I'm not. I do not have the time to read more about it. I have other priorities right now, and it's certainly not me who's going to solve Armenia's problems, although I'd really like to. For the record, my grandparents did speak Armenian, not Turkish (unless you call the Armenian that is spoken in Montreal Turkish, in which case you have serious issues). And they were certainly not a minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 Dr. Acemoglu justly claims that only the government of Armenia can, must and forever should conduct ANY negotiations with Turkey for compensation, reconciliation, forgiveness or whatever. I have yet to understand, what the hell the Independent republic of Armenia, which was part of Russian Armenia, has anything to do with negotiations related to the genocide. THis is the business of the diaspora, Armenia is not involved in anyway and SHOULD NOT. Oh please Domino... There is only one entity that has the right to talk to the country of Turkey and that is the Country of Armenia. It is her children that got slaughtered in Turkey. How can anyone else but ROA have a say in this? You as an individual or we as a group may stand up there and do all that is needed to be done, but Turkey does not give a rats ass about you and I the only "power" that they care about in terms of the Genocide is Armenia. And even if/when they recognize the genocide it is still the Republic that has a say in that matter of lands and such. Plus what organization in the Diaspora has the ability to conduct serious discussions with Turkey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted November 9, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 Good Points Azat, Things didn't start moving until Armenia was an independent nation. We have been agitating for recognition since the 1960's and no one listened until the ROA got into the picture. How much power do the Assyrians or EVEN the Kurds with their decamillions of people have? Without a national government at the helm it will go nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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