Anti-semitism and Armenians

[Guest]

I have noticed a certain element of anti-semitism among Armenians, particularly those from Hayastan and Russia(sorry, I don't mean to bash you guys that are from there!) I am thinking this is due to the general anti-semitism one finds in Russia these days. I think there is absolutely no place for Anti-Jewish thought among Armenians. We should know exactly how it feels to be a persecuted, diaspora people. I hope that this is not common among Armenians, but rather an exception, but I find it to be fairly prevalent among the Armenians I encounter. Thankfully, I don't see anti-semitism on this forum, in fact most people seem to admire the Jews, which I think is very appropriate. Remember, no matter what anyone tries to do, there will always be an Israel, it is part of God's plan, the Arabs can dream about the Jews going back to the diaspora, "it ain't gonna happen!" I still wonder why the Palestinians are treated as pariahs among their so called brother Arabs, why doesn't Saudi Arabia, Jordan or Syria give them territory? HA HA they never will, they hate the Palestinians more than the Jews do. The Arabs in Israel have more freedom than they do anywhere else in the Arab world. IN fact, many Arabs go to Israel illegally to work and seek a better life.

 

Armenia should model itself on Israel, they have paved the way in the ins and outs of establishing a nation after a several thousand year diaspora. They have a standard of living that the Arabs drool over, being a center of hi-tech computer industries and diamond cutting. Armenia should also develop closer relations with Israel, just because they are allies of Turkey doesn't mean anything, in fact it should motivate Armenia to woo Israel.

[Guest]

No way!

That would be so dumb for Armenians to be anti-semits!

There are a lot of Armenians in Israel.Israeli people know our history and support us!

Armenians and Jews have a very similar history, don't forget that!

[Guest]

Farsi jan you made a very interesting and right observation. Deep, deep down in our hearts we are somewhat anti-semitic. There are many reasons for that.

 

Dating back to middle ages Armenians and Jews have been involved in trade between East and West. The main Armenian trading houses were based in India, and Central Europe, mainly Transylvania. The main Jewish trading houses were mainly based in Ottoman Empire, Iberian peninsula, and after the inquisition in British Isles. As the competition intenisified with the rise of Industrial Revolution, and the stakes got higher these trading houses couldn't coexist harmoniously. The trip of Istrael Ori, a representative of an Armenian trading house in Madras, to Armenia in hopes of establishing an Armenian Kingdom was a result of Armenians losing to the competition. As Brits conquered India, they gave Jewish trading houses special priviledges and Armenians couldn't compete with them anymore. So you can't blame the losing side of not being fond of the winner, espeically when it's done by having special priviledges.

Let's jump a few centuries. The Young Turk organization in Saloniki was formed under direct sponsorship of European Jewry. The plan was that as Young Turks come to power they will allow Jewish allia (I think that's the Jewish word for hayrenadardsutyun). With the direct help and sponsorship of Jewish bankers, who were the main creditors of Ottoman Empire, Armenians were exterminated from their homeland.

 

Another reason for our anti-semitism. Many Armenians had prosperous lives in middle east, especially in Lebanon, before the expansionary policies of Israel. When Israel attacked Lebanon and captured Beirut, Armenians had to take on arms to protect their neighborhoods. That became the core of ASALA. Monte Melkonian got trained in the hills of Burj Hammud.

I am sorry this was a long post. But I intended to give the reasons for our anti-semitism.

 

And please don't get me wrong. I am not an anti-semite. Working in a financial services industry gives me an exposure to American Jews on daily basis and I am friends with many of them. (I used to date a Jewish girl)

[Guest]

Alpha jan, none of what you gave me, though it may be accurate, can justify anti-Semitism. The "expansionary" policies that you cite, were caused by the Palestinian having their terrorist bases in Lebanon, good for the Jews in kicking their asses!

[Guest]

don't forget that!

 

No way!

That would be so dumb for Armenians to be anti-semits!

There are a lot of Armenians in Israel.Israeli people know our history and support us!

Armenians and Jews have a very similar history, don't forget that!

 

Nvard jan / shat jamanak chunem yev jishtn asats shat paster chkan dzerks iys ropeyin , vorpesii kez tsuyts tam te hryaner@ HAy azgi n@katmab inchpes en verabervum / yev kam inchn e kam ove Hye azgi #2rd tshnamin.

 

sakayn du hima gtnvum es HAyastanum vstah em voch shat djvarutyamb karor es dzerk berel grakanutyun kam nyuter te ove Artsax@ / NAxijevan@ / axltsxan / Hayastani KAzmi mijits hanelu hamar HAmuzel Stalinin.

Yev kam inchu hamar e strertsvel Adrbejan Kochvats hanrapetutyun@ yev inchu e n@ran iyskan horraiyn taratskner tvel vorn uni iyskan harust bnakan resusrsner.

Patasxan@ mekn e . 3 Hrya pashtonyaner voronk yerel en Stalini te Xorhrdakaner@ yev te n@ran teladror andzik yev te n@ran naxkin CCCP rekavar nshanakorner@.

 

mi kich aveli xorr@ mtatsek iys harstov yev k@tesnek te BAtsy Turkits yev Adrbejanits ov e Hye azgi tshnamin. thsnami vor@ bavakanin tokun e yev bavakanin hmut ashxarhi qaraqakan volortnerum. k@tesnes te ovker en kangnats Hye Azgi janaparhin.

 

ushadir yerek.

 

Hryan yerbek mez @enker chi yerel chi el linelu.

[Guest]

iyspes en nerkayatsnum Hyots patmutyuN@ voch miyayn mez iyl yev urishnerin.

te inch er irakanutyun@ chem kartsum menq imanank shutov sakayn sa jshmartuyun@ che yev kam jshmartyan mek masnikn e miyayn.

 

The Soviet Period

 

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Armenian nationalists entered a political agreement with the Bolsheviks in December 1920, forming a new coalition government that then proclaimed Armenia a socialist republic. In an agreement signed the same month, Bolshevik-controlled Azerbaijan agreed to make the territories of Naxçivan and Nagorno-Artsax part of Armenia. In early 1921 the Bolsheviks took complete control of the government, expelling the Armenian nationalists. Together with Georgia and Azerbaijan, which had also come under Bolshevik control, Armenia was incorporated into the Transcaucasian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic (SFSR) in March 1922. In December the Transcaucasian SFSR became one of the four original republics of the Bolsheviks' new state, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR). Despite the earlier agreement, the Soviet authorities placed the territories of Naxçivan and Nagorno-Artsax under Azerbaijani governance.

 

The new Soviet Communist regime sought to neutralize nationalist sentiment in Armenia. The ARF was outlawed in 1923, and the Armenian Communist Party was the only party allowed to function. Leaders of the Armenian Church were persecuted, churches were closed, and church property was confiscated. Beginning in the late 1920s many Armenian nationalists and others suspected of opposing the Soviet regime were executed or deported to labor camps. The purges intensified in the mid- and late 1930s, when the Great Purge masterminded by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin extended throughout the entire Soviet Union. Also in the mid-1930s the Soviet regime banned literature by 19th-century Armenian authors, such as Hakob Melik-Hakobian (pen name, Raffi).

 

The Soviet regime also implemented policies to fully integrate and centralize the economy of the Soviet Union. Armenia soon became one of the USSR's primary sources of copper. During the 1930s new industries such as chemical-manufacturing plants were rapidly introduced in Armenia, while private farms were forcibly combined into large state-owned farms. The collectivization of agriculture met with fierce resistance among the peasantry, which initially slowed the process. By 1936, however, the revolts were largely subdued by force. That year the Transcaucasian republic was dismantled, and Armenia became the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic (SSR) within the USSR.

 

Soviet authorities began to allow some leniency in the cultural sphere during World War II (1939-1945). The Communist government, although officially atheistic, called upon the Armenian Apostolic Church to rally the Armenian people behind the Soviet war cause. Some expressions of nationalism were tolerated, especially after the death of Stalin in 1953. However, substantial political and social reforms did not take place until several decades later.

[Guest]

Steve Can you help us all & define Semitism ?

Tel us what Semitism is for.

 

 

[This message has been edited by JanFedayi (edited July 06, 2000).]

[Guest]

If I have to define semitism for you, maybe you need to take some education courses at the university! While you're at it take some English classes! I take it from your posts that you live in California,USA, buddy! If you are so enamored with Hayastan what are you doing here?

 

I am sure it is pretty clear to most people what semitism and anti-semitism is.

[Guest]

Ko n@man mi kani txmarner el Hayastanum kan vorpes rekavar, kez n@maneri dzerkist enk paxel es yerkir,

Yev im angleren imanal@ kam chimana@ im hartsi het kap chuni xotaker portsy hartsis patasxanesyev voch te barbajes.

yev vorpes Hayastantsy mi harts kez hamar .Et ova shinel kez u $$ chi tvel vor etpes Hayastantsuts varvats es ?

[Guest]

Amen ankam, amen inch vor asumes, ski gap chuni "topic" het. Munak imanumes nakhadink anes. Shaat lav, yes el garoghem anem. Nuwn eshutsuneres asum! Ches amotum vor et kan vat a ko angleren? Yev sukhalem vor este(USA) mech es aprum? Yes I know my Armenian is not the best, but if I were living in Armenia I would make sure it was excellent. Again, if you hate America so much, as you seem to, who is keeping you from going back to Yerevan?

[Guest]

Steve and Movses!

this place is not to fight - it's for discussions!!Please don't forget that!

 

Movses!

yes skzbic xosumey Israeli hryaenari masin.

drank en iskakan, voch te nrank vor Rusastanum en lcrac!

yes Israelitneri het shat em xosacel u gitem iryank inch en hyeri masin mtacum!

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nvard:
Steve and Movses!
this place is not to fight - it's for discussions!!Please don't forget that!

Movses!
yes skzbic xosum ey Israeli hryaenari masin.
drank en iskakan, voch te nrank vor Rusastanum en lcrac!
yes Israelitneri het shat em xosacel u gitem iryank inch en hyeri masin mtacum!

---

BArev Nvard jan
Nvard jan topic@ verabervum e semitis-akan KAzmakerputyan@ vor yev ir tesaki mej Shovinistakan kamb natsyonalkist kazmakerputyun e vor@ pashtpanum e Hryaneri shaher@ asxharhi bolor tsiyrerum, irakanutyan mej pashtpanum e Hryaneri yev miyayn HRYANERI shaher. na voch te martkayin iravunkneri hamar e iyl Hryaneri iravunki hamar e .
voch miyayn Hyern en dem sionizmin iyl kan nayev IZrayelabnakner voronk ktrakanapes dem en Sionizmin yev n@ra katarats MUT GORSTERIN.
Sionistner@ iysor rekavarum en ashxarhis mets mas@ baris bun imastov,nuynisk mer arajin prezident Levon Ter Petrosyanin jamanakin halatsum eyin Hrya kin unenalu masin yev kaper eyin tsuyts talsi Levoni yev sionistneri mijev yev apatsutsum vor HAyastani iys vijaki patjar@ Levon@ yev n@ra k@noj barekamnern en tsitsareli e che .. jisht e chem havatum shat sakayn chka sut vori kes@ jisht che,yev chem kaskatsum vor sionistner@ chen portsel iys anel yev patahakan cher yerv Rarabagh komiteyi 11 andamnerits 4'i kanaiyk Hryaner eyin
Hryaner eyin nayev Josef Stalini 3 xorhrdakaner@ Voronk uneyin barekamner yevorpakan MAsoneri mej, iys 3 eyin voronk ognel yuv mejk eyin kangnel vorpisy Stalin@ bartsrana iyd pashtonin. Yev irenst teladrutyamb er vor Stalin@ handznets RArabagh@ yev Naxijevan@ norasterts adrbejanin. Ur planavorvats er himnel Hryaneri nor HAngrvan@ nor Izrayel vor@ kunenar Bnakan harust resursner.
Sionistneri arajin tsankutyun er (inchev Izrayel@ stertsel@" Araratyan DAshtavaiyrum unenal nor Izrayel vor@ kliner reggyoni tirakal@ unenalov adrbejani naft@ HAyastani dirk@ yev kliner bibliakan Ararati tak ur irenst aselov Noy@ vor@ yerel e Hrya sksel e nor asxharh, iys harsty shurj karor em xosel mi amborj tary sakayn iyskanov em bavararvelu.


Yev mi moratsek vor, Hryan da Azg che iyl KRON , ,tsankatsats mart karor e HRya darnal. HAkarak n@ran vor mez mot Hye chen darnum iyl tsnvum en.
tarberutyun@ bavakanin mets e.
chnayats n@ran vor milyonov brak enk tvel ,hena mi hat el txmar ka ester HAka-HAykakan yev aveli jisht HAka-HAyastanyan. ir azgi shaher@ torrats pashtpanum e urishi shaher@ urish azgi qaq@ ir azgi darr@ artsunkits lavn e ir hamar.
Milyonov brak enk tvel .

Nvard jan sovorakan mardkayin haraberutyuner@ misht el parz en yerel, inchpisin turkern eyin vorosh , ognum eyin HAyerin, yev kam adrbejantsy bnakichner erel en depker "ASUM EN " . sakayn yerb arach en galsi azgayin yev kam kronakan harster misht el @endvzum@ anxusapeli e.
isk rusastanum lstvats Hryaner@ kich ogut chen tvel izrayelin soinistneri teladrmamb , yev kich gorts charetsin rusastani qiyqayman gortsum .

VAyn yekel mez tarel e yete menak HAyers el chunenak shutov iys tesak mi kazmakerputyun vor@ pashtpani HAyeri Shaher@ yev PATJI HAKA-HAYKAKAN tsankatsats tesaki arark yev andznavorutyan.

[Guest]

Farsi jan,

 

Please define what the anti-semitism is! Because presently, everybody are pressed to be simpathetic to all the Jews of the world. You know, there are bad people among the Jews also, but in almost every occassion if you encounter a person, argue with him about some topic, and he turns out to be a Jew!!!, you're automatically considered to be anti-semit. Look what happens in Russia: the government is trying to build a national state, tightens its grip on Jewish controlled media and in just one seconed its labled non-democratic, anti-semit etc. all over the world.

There is a big difference between Jews and Armenians. Armenians, wherever they are, are helping to build the state of their citizenship, Jews, wherever they are, are trying to ruin the state of their citizenship to build their Isreal.

Arayzhm

[Guest]

Steve follow this link, and you will learn more about the expanionary policy of Israel. I will explain you later how strategically we can't be Israeli ally.

http://www.msnbc.com/msn/381152.asp?cp1=1

 

Just remember!!!

Be afraid of a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by farsisteve:
If I have to define semitism for you, maybe you need to take some education courses at the university! While you're at it take some English classes! I take it from your posts that you live in California,USA, buddy! If you are so enamored with Hayastan what are you doing here?

I am sure it is pretty clear to most people what semitism and anti-semitism is.

---

Farsi,

On your turn, you need some alternative background on politics and history other than the clishe text-books of UCLA written by middle hand Jewish and Ango-Saxon authors.
Yes, anti-semitism is not defined. What about arabs, are they semits or not?
Arayzhm

[Guest]

Ok Berj here is the truth: I am really a Jew! Ha ha, just kidding, though I suspect there might be some Jewish ancestry on my dad's side. Berj, I read all kinds of perspectives, not just establishment. I read writings by Subcomadante Marcos of Chiapas fame,and in the same day I will read William F. Buckley's National Review Magazine(ultra conservative) along with Mother Jones magazine(rabidly left wing). My views fall somewhere in the middle. I am sorry you feel that way about the Jews. In part, I think the Armenian anti-semitism is rooted in jealousy of the Jews, who have successfully built a dynamic nation, and who have world-wide recognition of the Holocaust. All I can say is good for the Jews, more power to them, and woe betide any one who comes against Israel! Shalom aleichem!

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by farsisteve:
Ok Berj here is the truth: I am really a Jew! Ha ha, just kidding, though I suspect there might be some Jewish ancestry on my dad's side. Berj, I read all kinds of perspectives, not just establishment. I read writings by Subcomadante Marcos of Chiapas fame,and in the same day I will read William F. Buckley's National Review Magazine(ultra conservative) along with Mother Jones magazine(rabidly left wing). My views fall somewhere in the middle. I am sorry you feel that way about the Jews. In part, I think the Armenian anti-semitism is rooted in jealousy of the Jews, who have successfully built a dynamic nation, and who have world-wide recognition of the Holocaust. All I can say is good for the Jews, more power to them, and woe betide any one who comes against Israel! Shalom aleichem!

---

Farsi, how I feel about the Jews?, what? I'm already an anti-semit, ha?. I don't feel nothing about them, man. You think I'm jealous of that 14.000sq/km piece of terrorised land. You're kiddin' man. I'm, jealous of being blown up by "Hamas"? Farsi common, think a little. Am I jealous of being a slave to Anlgo-Saxons?, no way buddy. Do I need a world-wide recognition of Eghern, never. Am I going to eat the money Turkey will pay for my killed ancestors, or am I going to send my kids to the schools built by Turkish contributions? Never, never ever. We're a proud nation man, we don't eat blood money.
All I need is a Red line on Armenian-Turkish border, and a nuclear Russia.
Actually, you're an anti-slavic! Like it?
Arayzhm

[Guest]

Berj jan

 

Yes I am anti-slavic! If you put together the numbers of Jews and other peoples killed by the Russians, Ukrainians,Poles and now Serbs, going back to the pogroms of the 19th century, all the way to World War II,Stalins purges in the fifties and even now with the recent massacre of Albanians, the Slavs make the Turks look like Sunday school Bible students! I have never liked the Russians, and see nothing good coming from there. I am still convinced the anti-christ will come from Russia!

 

As for Israel, there is no comparison between that country and Armenia when it comes to standard of living. Israel has a per capita income higher than that of many European countries(Portugal,Greece,Ireland). Good for them in accepting reparation money from the Germans, that is very biblical old testament, I thought you would believe in that. See, I am convinced that if the Turkish government were to issue a press conference today and announce their official acknowledgement of the genocide, ask for forgiveness, offer monetary reparations, and invite Armenians to reclaim their lands in Turkey, Armenians would still go on about the genocide! Most Armenians are like you, more Moslem and Old Testament than Christian. You guys can build one million cathedrals with khatchkars and cross yourselves every second, but most of you have not one ounce of Christian charity. Again, good for the Jews, I pray everyday for Israel(Its biblical "Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem"Im not sure of the Book or verse, If you want it I can find it for you!). I only wish Armenians had the unity of the Jews.

You say that the Jews destroy the citizenship of the countries they live in. WHere do you get that from? Are you spitting on the memory of millions of Jews who fought for France, England, the United States, Russia or whatever their country of birth? Before World War II, numerous Jews fought loyally in the Kaiser's army. I am not sure what some of your sources of information are other than Zhinovsky style anti-Israel pamphlets that you probably get over there. (Wow we are back to arguing! Good, it was getting a bit boring me and you agreeing!)

[Guest]

Berjjan zgum es um het gorts unenk ?

kartsum em sra het miyak dzev@ xoselu na e vor chxosenk. sra xosker@ aveli shat ANTI-Armenian yev kam aaveli jicht ANTI - HAyastantsy.

 

amen trrori hetev @vor bambak koxenk uzbekstan bambak chi mna ,

[Guest]

Jan "Fanatic" inch lav gelni vor tsenut guthres! Yev aveli lav gelni vor het etas Hayastan! Inchu esteghes aprum? Et kan sirumes Hayastan,inchu betke apres USA mech? GO BACK TO ARMENIA, ARMENIAN BOY!

[Guest]

And while you are at it take another dozen Hayastansis from Glendale with you!

[Guest]

Farsi I hate name calling but it seems like you are blinded by CNN propaganda. It's a myth that Jews have a unity. Have you worked with them? They are more jealous of each other than anybody else. Have you visited Israel? Ashkenazi and Safarvids hate each other more than Arabs? I personally don't have anything against Jews. They are hard working people, who achieve a financial success, but I have many things against Zionism. It's a fascism, but nothing else. It's great to be a patriot, but when you cross your line and become an extremist, than you become a menace to a society and humanity. Zionists have crossed the line. The state of Israel is an expansionist state, lets admit it, and it's not Jews' fault. They can blame extremist Zionists, who are a minority in Israel, for transforming their state to a periah. I thought you are an educated man, but reading your anti-slavic comments made me change my mind. Don't be such a prejudist. You can't classify the whole nation as enemies of humanity, because a few leaders are barbarians. If you do, than Americans are the biggest killers in the history of the humanity. Their country is built by blood, on the land of the others, by lying, killing and abusing the trust of indigious people. How would you feel if someone called a blood ****ing American. I am sure you won't be proud of it. So don't calls Slavs killers, because you don't have the moral right, because your other half is American.

[Guest]

Alpha

 

For your information I don't even watch CNN! It seems all you do is listen and read Palestinian and other Arab propaganda crap!Of course like all anti-semites you claim you have nothing against them,I bet some of them are even your best friends!As for the slavs, it is a proven fact how they willingly participated in the annihilation of the Jews in World War II. From the Poles to the Ukrainians and Croats, the Jews were betrayed and marched off to the death factories by their Slavic"Christian" neighbors.

 

Yes America has done its share of murder, you are nobody to be telling me that! I have Native American ancestry as well so I know too well! When all is said and done, who hasn't committed their share of atrocities? The Tahitians maybe, or the Pigmies! Don't even get me started on some of the things Armenians have done, though heaven forbid we mention it or I will get lynched by the Armenian thought police! Everyone has screwed everyone under at some time!

[Guest]

Farsi,

You want war?, I give you war!

There is a big difference between Anglo-Saxons and Slaves too. On the territory the Anglo-Saxons had conquered the indigious nations no more exist (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand), on the territory Russians had conquered all the indigious nations exist, even the Chechens (Turkestan, Siberia, Caucasus,).

[Guest]

Berj, uh I am not quite sure what you were trying to say in your last post, it wasn't as cohesive as your usual writing(hanging out with Jan Fedayi too much?) I think you are implying about the annihilation of the indigenous peoples of US,Canada,Australia and New Zealand. Well, first of all if you read your history, the cause of the deaths of the indigenous peoples was due more often to diseases that they were not used to that were introduced by the Europeans(such as the common cold). Such diseases though relatively benign to Europeans had a devastating effect on the indigenous peoples. Yes there were some outright massacres, Wounded Knee, the Trail of Tears, do you think I am ignorant of these? Me of all people, who has Native American ancestry! I also have news for you, there still are over a million Indians in the United States! If you went to states like Oklahoma or New Mexico,about every other person you run into is Native American!Don't tell them they no longer exist. There never were that many people in North America(US,Canada) to begin with, the indigenous populations were concentrated in Present day Mexico and Guatemala, and believe me the majority of the population of those countries are very Indian, though Catholic and Spanish speaking. The Maoris of New Zealand comprise still about 20% of the population. Canada still has a sizable Native population.

 

Don't think for a moment I am white-washing the Anglo, why should I? You seem to forget I am part Irish!Whether they have been better or worse than the Slavs is debatable, I certainly don't think they have been any better.

 

Lets get back to the topic though shall we? I see I was very wrong about there not being anti-semitism(okay anti-Jewish) on this Forum, it sure has reared its ugly head. I still say there is jealousy toward Jews on the part of Armenians, I see it all the time from some of my own relatives who roll their eyes every time something about the Holocaust comes on tv. Believe me, you guys give me the same rhetoric they do, I have heard nothing new!