Why Hate From Turks

[seeker]

Hı Gentelmen and Ladies

 

Hoping you are in a good healt and going well with everything that around you in this short life. l really appreciate your studyings in this forum. l hope that, this well-established forum not only belong to the Armenians but to all kind of people int the world even to the Turks.

As being a young Kurdish origin Turkish citizen, l have just wanted to say something about this subject. At the begining let me introduce myself to you. My name is Cenap, l am a teacher, teaching Turkish Republic History, English, Computer and Social Science in a middle school in the nortwest part of Turkey.

, l hope you dont misunderstand me, all of my sayings are not my claims, l will just write down my knowledge about this subject.

In the first place, l love everybody in this world, no matter from which origin they come and no matter to which country they belong. we have a proverb that says "love the creators because the creator". You are an Amenian, as far as l try to follow this forum and all kind of writings in the diffrerent departments in the forum such as Diaspora, Cultur ... a big hatred against to the Turks and Turkish Goverment has taken my attention, that just made me feel bad, l have just asked to myself that what kind of things had my nation done to deserve this hatred? l remember the years of my childish-time, my family had used to have many Armenian neighboors, we had used to visit each other, l could remember my mum's calling the Armenians as "Gavur" (infidel) but in this time that hadnt included bad meaning, l think that became a tradition to name the Christians in Turkey as "Gavur" by Anatolian people but althoug this saying, l could see the good relationship among them, ( l am talking about 1983-84-85) but most of them had gone to abroad in the end.

if we want to clarify or surface the reality about this subject, l believe we should try to make ourselves understand the history in a searching style. The real key ,Which we are looking for, was hidden in the history, but obejectivly not the other ways.

as you know the policy of the countries in the world, now these policies have been affilieted to self-interest relatonship of countries, that is wrong way but should be, if you dont, the another do, you know the American Occupation in Irak. this situation also happened in every period of history. For instance, we can turn back our subject, Anatolia, before the turks penetrate into, the armenians had used to mostly in the east part of this peninsula, under the domination of Byzantin Empire, even befor this time Anatolia was used to the part of Roman Empire, then the Pers occupied, Byzantines, Mongols, Selçuks and in the end the Ottomans, the Armenians had lived under the dominances of these nations. that is the style of the world. in the history the Armenians could established shortl lived kindoms such as Clicia,. l am not giving a history lesson, l believe your knowledge is more than me. The Armenians, underdominances of the Turkish origin goverments in the history were in the good conditions till the ı. world war. the bad events had happened aftr this period and in this period, in this place l am not stating that the turks killed the armenians and the armenians killed the turks, l am not seeing myself entitled to proclaim something, maybe after reaching the real information for this l am still studing. The point, that l would like to start my research, is a few questions.

1) why Ottoman Empire had waited 500 years to kill the Armenians, who were accepted as the loyalist minority in the empire by the Ottomans?

2) how could be the members of the unwanted nation in the empire occupying the most important places in the Ottoman govertmet's directory, such as in the forign office?

3) how could be the traders of this unwanted nation, the richest persons of the empire, if the armenian minority was unwanted or a genocide was contemplated on it, there would be no need to allow them be rich?

4) if Ottoman excuted a genocide on this nation, why it didnt touch to the Armenians in the west part of anatolia or how could Armenians lived in Turkey till now, there are many armenians particularlly in the west now, threre are also many armenian churches in turkey? is there a mosque in Armenia now?

5) what was the position of the Armenians in the first world war an also their relationship with outsiders?

 

sir, these questions are not academic ones, in Turkey, every Turkish person has these questions in their mind, if you can answer these questions in a relyable way and prove them in a documantry way l think it is possible to make the Turks recognize the genocide claims, but on the other hand, it can be sometimes possible to make the other countries recognize this claims.

 

In recentlly, many Armenians, particularlly the ones who live in the diaspora, wants to critize turkey in a hatred way, l have just witnessed in this forum, but l believe that if they try to learn more and read the books or the other things, which were not directed to them, they will try out many different information about Turkey. l am not a nationalist side but l cant help myself writing something. that is my point of view. if you want to criticize Turkey, firs you should come turkey, watch around and talk to the armenians in turkey then say the real things that you want to. even there are many armenian villages in the east. if you want l can give you the adresses of these villages.

 

that is all l have just wanted to say. if you have comments or information, l request you to mail me. Here you are my mail

 

cenapibo@hotmail.com

[gamavor]

Cenap, Go to Hell!

[seeker]

hi gamavor

 

 

nobady can know who will go to hell or heaven

[DominO123]

Dear seeker, or whatever other alias you want to be called, my answer to your post will be short.

 

It follows like this.

 

If you think that you can call what you search a "true research" by those simplistic childish 5 points you raised, from which all of them have no place at all in disproving or proving the genocide, then it will be a waste of time to even try to argue with you. Go regurgitate your poisonous venom elswhere, you wont fool anyone by your artificial honesty.

[DominO123]

Cenap, Go to Hell!

I second this proposition.

[seeker]

Dear seeker, or whatever other alias you want to be called, my answer to your post will be short.

 

It follows like this.

 

If you think that you can call what you search a "true research" by those simplistic childish 5 points you raised, from which all of them have no place at all in disproving or proving the genocide, then it will be a waste of time to even try to argue with you. Go regurgitate your poisonous venom elswhere, you wont fool anyone by your artificial honesty.

If you think that you can call what you search a "true research" by those simplistic childish 5 points you raised, from which all of them have no place at all in disproving or proving the genocide, then it will be a waste of time to even try to argue with you. Go regurgitate your poisonous venom elswhere, you wont fool anyone by your artificial honesty.

 

 

 

hi Domino

 

l think it is very easy for you to enforce your prejudice on my post. if you read it correctly, you will come across to the sentences in which l said that all them were my point of view, and that is the reality, l am not claiming something, l have just explained my idea, but on the other hand if you want to discuss, l am always ready to debate about anything

[Stormig]

Cenap, maybe you need to ask yourself many things, but one among them I'll ask for now is what Armenians did to deserve being evicted from their homeland when they were not in the fighting zone, pretty far away from it in many cases, even as far as the "western Anatolia" you mention - you know wrong.

What did Armenians do to deserve this kind of hate - there are fewer churches surviving than there should be. You know nothing.

And I wouldn't be so "do goody" about myself if I were you. There are some among the participants of this forum that understand Turkish, and one of your previous posts sheds light on the ill-workings of your thoughts.

Yes, there are mosques in Armenia - Persian one in Yerevan (I think) and otherwise also in Agdam are the ones I know. But so what? Meanwhile, Tbrevank is in danger of being confiscated.

 

Here, take your pick and read something in the language you know best to get a better idea of what was and what is:

 

http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/citymap_tr.htm

[Sip]

http://s93725736.onlinehome.us/sip/hf/deny.gif

 

Cenap,

 

It just occured to me that you may be the perfect guy to write this book: "Why the Armenian genocide didn't happen for Dummies"

 

Edited July 6, 2007 by Sip

[Stormig]

By the way... What are the Armenian villages in the East? I would like to know and am very curious to know which ones these are.

[seeker]

By the way... What are the Armenian villages in the East? I would like to know and am very curious to know which ones these are.

Vakıflıköyü

Musa Dağı

Antakta/Turkey

[MJ]

Vakıflıköyü

Musa Dağı

Antakta/Turkey

[Armat]

http://zr2.cs.ucla.edu/hf/deny.gif

 

Cenap,

 

It just occured to me that you may be the perfect guy to write this book: "Why the Armenian genocide didn't happen for Dummies"

 

Sip I was drinking beer when I saw your post and loughed so hard that I covered my moniter with beer! Kudos points for humor!!

 

Seeker, there is plenty of material available on the web about the Armenian Genocide.I suggest reading them (none Turkish sources) and most of your questions will be answered.It is simply wrong to assume every Armenian hates Turks! You are confusing historical facts with feelings perhaps.When we Armenians talk about the AG it deals mostly with your governmet's denial!!! and it is your duty first to learn the facts before coming here and assuming "Armenian hatred towards Turks" that's all, peace!

[Arpa]

Sayan seeker,

You don't even deserve a reply.

You have a very curiously tempting screen name.

Basically, kafa sikyosun. Find yourself another forum to peddle your fables. Who wrote that history for you? The ones that claim to have written "world history"? The ones that claim that the world and all its contents were created in 6 days? They have been selling that garbage for much too long maybe you can sell them your version of world history.

AS I said above, you don't even deserve a reply except that maybe you can do yourself a favor or two; First try and read real history, not Turkish fairytales, then, learn English if you expect to sell your rotten merchandise. Maybe you should write in Kurdish, you may make more sense that as we will not understand it, but then again we can't understand you anyway.

Funny! I had not even seen your April 25 post where you threten to come and let me have a couple, and then you cite the ladies on this forum. Go ahead! Our ladies are a thousand times more mature and a million times more intelligent than you.

No wonder Raffi has very dim opinion of the Kurds. You may search find some reference on this forum. Just use the keyword "kurd" or "Raffi". In the meantime go back to tending your mules. Raffi likens the Kurd to mules.

With this kind of attitude you expect to have a Kurdish Homeland? No wonder you have not had one. You don't deserve, you Turk gotuni yalayan.

[DominO123]

hi Domino

 

l think it is very easy for you to enforce your prejudice on my post. if you read it correctly, you will come across to the sentences in which l said that all them were my point of view, and that is the reality, l am not claiming something, l have just explained my idea, but on the other hand if you want to discuss, l am always ready to debate about anything

Then find another place to ejaculate your point of views, do you think that people here suffer from amnesia? Do you think they have not read your previous posts just after you registered on this board?

 

What the hell are you still doing here? Do you need someone to show you the way out? The only way out I will show you, is hell... go roast there and stay out from this board.

 

PS: When I think that you even didn't registered another account, thinking that we are enough dumb to buy your "honesty" after what you have posted before.

Edited October 27, 2003 by Fadix

[THOTH]

l have just asked to myself that what kind of things had my nation done to deserve this hatred?

Seeker - can you at all be serious? If so - I pity your students who rely on you to teach them history....

 

And your 5 questions do not at all come accross to me as someone asking questions as a seekker (a true [Turkish] seeker would be asking questions about the behavior/position of his governemnt in denial of the deeds of the past - etc)...they are loaded questions where you betray that you have an a priori answer - and one that is very superficial - and one that is very incomplete...and just worng....

[Sip]

Sip I was drinking beer when I saw your post and loughed so hard that I covered my moniter with beer! Kudos points for humor!!

To give credit where it's due, Domino's post triggered it. Plus I didn't have to read the whole thing since by now, I fully trust Domino's judgement when it comes to texts like these

[Sip]

nobady can know who will go to hell or heaven

Now only if someone could tell that to the muslim suicide bombers who think they are going to heaven for sure.

[Lev7]

As being of a Kurdish origin shame on you for making this thread. You should know better how thousands of Kurdish people have been killed and still being killed by Turks.

 

As for the points you have made it just shows how clueless and uneducated you are.

 

 

"why Ottoman Empire had waited 500 years to kill the Armenians, who were accepted as the loyalist minority in the empire by the Ottomans?"

 

Maybe because the Ottoman Empire was loosing the majority of all its territories by the end of the WWI and shall we say desperate times call for desperate measures. And thats exactly what happened. Desperate to preserve the Eastern Anatolia, the Ottoman Government started to "deport" the Armenian population from there ancestral lands.

 

 

 

"how could be the members of the unwanted nation in the empire occupying the most important places in the Ottoman government’s directory, such as in the foreign office?"

 

That was way before the Young Turks and the new government which formed I believe in 1912. Before that the Ottoman Empire was ruled by Sultan Abdul Hamid under whom the Armenians, still were killed and repressed, but still had much freedom. It was after the Young Turks and their Pan-Turkish ideologies that changed the way the Ottoman Empire views its "Gavurs" as you call them.

 

 

"how could be the traders of this unwanted nation, the richest persons of the empire, if the Armenian minority was unwanted or a genocide was contemplated on it, there would be no need to allow them be rich?"

 

Again, we are talking about different periods in the Ottoman Empire. The ideologies of the Empire drastically changed after the Young Turk revolution, which overthrew the Sultan. And thats when Armenian elites and intellectuals started to be persecuted, because when you cut the head of a person, the body can not exist without it.

 

 

"if Ottoman executed a genocide on this nation, why it didnt touch to the Armenians in the west part of Anatolia or how could Armenians lived in Turkey till now, there are many Armenians particularly in the west now, there are also many armenian churches in turkey? is there a mosque in Armenia now?"

 

Now this statement just plainly shows that you have no clue in politics nor in history. First of all there are less than 60,000 Armenians left in Turkey and a lot of them converted to Muslim to avoid persecution and death. There is a reason why the Armenians in west part of Anatolia and Constantinople were not openly slaughtered like the ones in East. Now, all the governemnt buildings and all the European, U.S and other tourists, journalists, traders were in Constantinople and what would they say and report back to their countries, when they saw Armenians being killed right in front of their eyes. Acutally there are lots of eye-witness accounts by many German, British, French, Dutch, U.S. missionaries who reported how Armenians were being brutally killed by the Turkish soldiers. PLEASE READ THE BLUE BOOK by James Bryce and Arnold Toynbee.

As for the Armenian churches in Turkey, I think you are smoking too much weed. They are being destroyed as we speak my blind friend. Khachkars, which date back god knows when are being used as building stones to build houses for the Kurds. And the churches are used to store hay for cows. Isn't it obvious. This is a deliberate actions by your government to destroy the last remains of our civilization.

 

 

"what was the position of the Armenians in the first world war an also their relationship with outsiders?"

 

Ok, this is the only intellectual and relevant question that you asked. Armenians were always loyal to the Ottoman rulers, starting from the Sultans to the new government that formed in the 1910's. Did you also know that the Armenians supported the Young Turks in their quest to seize power from the Sultan Abdul Hamid? Because they hoped that this new and more secular governemnt would help them. But what happened next? Nothing changed, and even got worse. Now the plan of the Young Turks was clear, to clear Turkey of all the minorities. Read Zoya Gukalp, as his writings inspired the Young Turks. So Armenians being again killed and driven away from their homes, turned to the Russians, with whome we had long historic ties. They had no other choice. It's either being killed or helping the Russians. I think you would choose the same thing.

 

 

So I would recommend you to read some more history books, instead of coming to this board with your nonsense and portraying yourself as an idiot, because thats what you just did.

[KnightOfArmenia]

1) why Ottoman Empire had waited 500 years to kill the Armenians, who were accepted as the loyalist minority in the empire by the Ottomans?

 

The Ottomans were a major power and untouchable by any others until 1699, when they were finally and decisively defeated before the gates of Vienna. The Treaty of Karlowitz and the subsequent Capitulations to the European powers meant that, now, the Christians dictated terms. This was quickly proven when, first, Napoleon took Egypt, then the British forced Mohammed Ali to not conquer the Ottomans, and then the Europeans supported the Greek revolt, which would have been crushed by the turks. This was followed by the liberation of the Balkan Christians, again with help from Europe. And, since the Russians were pressing for a warm-water point and had already made Armenia into a "protected people" during the Treaty of San Stefano and the Treaty of Berlin in 1878, the Armenians were suddenly viewed as a gateway for the Russians; what happened in the Balkans could easily happen there. It wasn't "hatred for the Armenians," but for what they were: a Christian people who had refused any form of assimilation into the turkish empire, and now that lack of assimilation could easily provide a casus belli for Russia. Abdul-hamid's massacres brought about European anger, and demand for reform; when the opportunity came for a planned extinction that wouldn't be responded to by the entire world presented itself, in the form of World War I, the turk government jumped on it.

 

2) how could be the members of the unwanted nation in the empire occupying the most important places in the Ottoman govertmet's directory, such as in the forign office?

 

That was after the Young Turk revolution of 1908; by the time the more reactionary, right-wing, ultra-nationalistic Pan-Turkists came to power, cemented into the Triumvirate (in 1913-1914), Armenians had been removed from the highest offices (Gabriel Noradoungian, the Foreign Minister, was dismissed in 1912, and fled to Paris); furthermore, even though the state was now supposed to be secular and democratic, laws preventing Christians from possessing weaponry were passed. I wonder why?

 

3) how could be the traders of this unwanted nation, the richest persons of the empire, if the armenian minority was unwanted or a genocide was contemplated on it, there would be no need to allow them be rich?

 

"Allow them to be rich"? You, apparently, don't know how capital works. The Armenians were a very industrious people (still are) who were good with money; even during the Imperial days, before the revolution, they were in charge of most of the military-industrial complex. These were only some 200 families, however, that controlled the big business; 80% of Armenians were rural peasants living in Armenia, with the remaining twenty percent in white collar work.

 

4) if Ottoman excuted a genocide on this nation, why it didnt touch to the Armenians in the west part of anatolia or how could Armenians lived in Turkey till now, there are many armenians particularlly in the west now, threre are also many armenian churches in turkey? is there a mosque in Armenia now?

 

In the city of Kharbert, modern Harput, the Armenian Quarter is absolutely abandoned, except for a few turk and kurd families. The only remaining church in the city, the Cathedral of Kharbert, has one priest in it, who has no congregation, but has to continue services, or else the government will sieze the property.

 

Only some 3-4 thousand Armenians live in modern turkey, and those in istanbul. They aren't allowed to refer to themselves as "Armenian," or to speak Armenian in public, because that is against turkish law.

 

5) what was the position of the Armenians in the first world war an also their relationship with outsiders?

 

The Armenians wanted to survive. Most of them failed in this task. They took to outsiders gratefully, since most of those outsiders saved them (Musa Dagh, the American missions, Arab caravans, etc.).

[Stormig]

even there are many armenian villages in the east. if you want l can give you the adresses of these villages.

Cenap, you are a king-size charlatan.

 

You said, "there are many Armenian villages in the east" - and gave me the name of one. In fact, that is the ONLY Armenian village left, and Antakya does NOT qualify as Eastern Turkey.

 

There are NO Armenian villages in Eastern Turkey. Give me the name of just one!

 

Armenians today should have been at least six million. Instead you have 1% of that in all of Turkey. Imagine instead of there being 15-20 million Kurds one day, then there were 150,000 to 200,000 in a matter of years. If that is not genocide, then what is it? But of course it is not genocide! The Kurds were sympathetic to PKK/KADEK and collaborated with Syria, their leader was in fact in the Bakaa valley!

 

What kind of a teacher are you? You don't know the regions in your country, and you can't tell the difference between "one" and "many"! No wonder the young generation of Turks comprises of MORONS!

[Nikephoros_Phokas]

This is typical. The Armenians are racist hating Turks, the Greeks on Cyprus were trying to genocide Turkish Cypriots, the Kurds are separtists, the EU is a Christian club, always the other parties fault to an indoctrinated Turk. But the real issue at hand is the Turkish mindset. At everyway possible the Turkish rigid authoritarian, militaristic mindest is causing problems.

 

To illustrate one will have to read this article: Some 58 percent of Turkish women subjected to violence

 

..."Although women have gained legal rights in many fields, they are still beaten or raped by their husbands on grounds that they do not obey their husbands' rules. Some 45 percent of Turkish men believe that they have the right to beat their wives, while 23 percent of men rape their wives." ...

 

I am a Greek American and for a long time I was believing and wanting to believe that all people are decent and that the governments are bad, so I had trouble understanding Turks, their society and their views towards other groups, but because of the Turks I am now believing that all societies are not so decent. This is the relationship most Turks want with Armenians: the Turks being the husband and the Armenians being a battered bride! This is harsh, but it is the cold truth. As long as Armenians are taking their beatings without asking for equality or independence then all is fine for the Turks, but when Armenians started trying to change the relationship to independence(divorce) or equality(Turks becoming reasonable and stopping the beatings) then the Turks are seeking radical solutions, like killing this insolent gâvur wife! Inshallah. How else to explain that so many Turks are being ultra-nationalist like this one who started this thread, but thinking that they are peaceful, such Turks are like men who beat their wives and do not think it is wrong, and get angry when the wife is unhappy with such a relationship.

 

Turks are very ignorant of historical facts. In Turkey they are not writing down facts when they write history most of the time. They are picking an ideology like Kemalism and then writing history so as to fit the official state discourse, if you write real history you will be harrassed by the authorities. Also the average Turk just does not care enough about Armenians to learn about the Armenian genocide, people will not accept excuses in the West for Holocaust denial, it is considered by many racism, but here a Turk is posting on an Armenian genocide board accussing Armenians of racism. So this explains, two of the biggest reasons modern Turks deny the Armenian genocide: 1)ignorance of history and 2)they care about Armenians as much as a wife beater loves his wife.

 

So to your points:

1) Turks waited so long for genocide because as long as the wife took her beatings the Turk had no problem with his Armenian wife. But when the wife started learn about all these European ideas and learning that it is not normal for all Christians to be under the schmitar of Islamic law, the wife wanted to change the relationship, so the Turk killed his wife, proclaimed the death of the Ottoman family and then started a new family, Turkey for the Turks, with the money he obtained from the property he looted from his dead Armenian wife.

2) and 3) Turkish tribes came to the region as warrior nomads, they never were economically or culturally masterful. If not for employing subject peoples in governance, commerce, there would have not been an Ottoman Empire. Turks were not in control of the economy when they came in and they were not until they seized control of economy when the Empire collapsed by killing and looting the Christians. Even in 1955 during the pogroms directed mostly against Greeks by Adnan Menderes, who built his career you could say on killing Greeks(earlier he slipped in the Greek mandate of Smyrna with Italian complicity to wage guerilla attacks and committ atrocities) did so because still the non-muslims were very powerful economically in Istanbul.

4)It did, Marjorie Housepian Dobkin in Smyrna 1922: The Destruction of a City documents how the Turkish army systematically tried to kill every Armenian in Syrmna, many Greek islanders in their boats arrived to help save Armenians and Greeks though; some European Powers, very grudgingly gave help to Armenians and other Christians to evacuate Smyrna. It was not the official policy of these governments to help evacuate, they did not want to offend the Kemalists, but some captains of ships, some soldiers, some consul officials(French embassy if anyone could speak French and said they were French, they would evacuate them, for example) helped to save people from the Turkish army and its typical brutality.

5)If you trying to insinuate that the Armenians were acting as a fifth column for Russia, why do you not examine the Turkish Cypriots who truly acted as a fifth column, instead of looking for imaginery fifth columns.

Edited October 27, 2003 by Nikephoros_Phokas

[maximus]

l agree with seeker

[gamavor]

...then you must be a filthy circumsized turkish pig (this is the way we Armenians call turks, but with no bad feelings), or if you are not, you should be one of their barbies.

[Arpa]

l agree with seeker

What is your given name? Gluteus?

You certainly speak from where bad wind usually emanates.

[Sip]

l agree with seeker

Of course you agree with yourself! ... well at least that's how generally things work.