Role Of Non-armenians In The Church

[addai]

Hello Everybody!

 

I wanted to post this thread to answer some personal questions I had on the Church and non-Armenians.

 

 

I'm pretty new to the Oriental Orthodox church (I was formerly Protestant for 30 years, then began studying and attending orthodox churches off and on for the last 6 years or so). I joined the Coptic church a few months ago. But previously, I had been attending the local Armenian parish previously. My introduction into Orthodoxy actually came from attending an Antiochain parish for a time (Syrian, Chalcedonian) and reading the book "Becoming Orthodox" by Peter Quilquist (who is also Antiochain). (I was formerly Protestant).

 

 

Anyway, I was interested in how Non-Armenians fit into your church. I know the Antiochian church, for instance has a lot of priests who were formely Protestant pastors who converted over to Orthodoxy. During my life I have been very active with Church and theology. I think the priesthood could also be in my future, but don't believe I'm called to be an unmarreid priest, so I'm deleiberately waiting to get this matter settled in my life before exploring this any further. I am however very active in talking to Protestants and agnostics about Orthodoxy as a kind of layman evangelist and apologist.

 

 

Anyway in attending your Church, it really appealed to me a great deal. I've also read articles by father Vasken Mosevian and others and I really feel like I agree and fit in with what the Church teaches and stands for. But when attending the local Aremnian parish, it seems like unless your Armenian, or married to an Armenian your out of luck.... (The church seems oblivious the outsiders would be interested in it. And when they do find out, they seem confused why any outsider would want to come to it).

 

 

Anyway I figured I would bring this to your attention and get your feedback.

[Sasun]

I have seen an Asian young man attending an Armenian church. He was alone, so I wouldn't say that he was married to an Armenian. But you are right, unfortunately it is the norm that only Armenians are part of the Armenian church.

[Stormig]

Addai, are you the brother who is the CEO of the PR company? Just kidding. Welcome aboard!

 

http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showt...indpost&p=54718

 

Hussein's other children.

 

Now that Uday & Qusay have been eliminated, a lot of the lesser-known Family members are coming to the attention of American authorities.

 

Among the brothers:

Sooflay -- the restauranteur

Guday -- the half-Australian brother

Huray -- the sports fanatic

brothers Kuntay & Kintay -- the twins from the African mother

Sayhay -- the baseball player

Ojay -- the stalker/murderer

Gulay -- the singer/entertainer

Ebay -- the internet czar

Biliray -- the country music star

Ecksray -- the radiologist

Puray -- the blender factory owner

Regay -- the half-Jamaican brother

Tupay -- the one with bad hair

 

Among the sisters:

Lattay -- the coffee shop owner

Bufay -- the 300 pound sister

Phayray -- the zoo worker in the gorilla house

Sapheway -- the grocery store owner

Ollay -- the half-mexican sister

 

Finally, there is Oyvey, but the family doesn't like to talk about him.

[Arpa]

The Armenian Church is not a church in its strictest sense. It is a monoethnic institution, a substitute, an exclusive club if you will.

Even if she may professes by the Nicene Creed (see URLs below, two versions, one uses the word "catholic" while the other prefers to use "universal" the common translation).

Catholic;

http://www.armenianchurch.org/worship/creed.html

 

Universal;

http://www.stleon.org/confession.html

 

The Armenian Church is even narrower than being mono-ethnic, it makes no secret of this when it sometimes describes itself as Hayastanyats Azgayin Araqelakan Yekeghetsi, Armenian National Apostolic Church. Not only it is a national church it is at times, as at the present a strictly parochial one. Not only parishioners may look with a jaundiced eye at a stranger, I have heard them question the presence of other (Armenian)worshippers who may be from another (rival)parish. As a rule Armenians are a suspicious lot. Of course there are reasons for this, our history has taught us to be suspicious and extremely parochial. One may consider this phenomenon to be harmful to the church and the nation, at times it may be blamed for our negative growth. Official and unofficial defintion of an Armenian is very narrow. This subject has been discussed to the ground, so I will spare us at this time.

 

However one thing has been revolving in my head for quite sometime. This may have been prompted by our brief encounter with Bass, some may remember him as the self professed Asori, Assyrian, Chaldean Cathlic who barged onto this forum, trashed everybody, exalted the Pope and the Jews (vs the Iraqi Arabs whom he accused of persecution and massacres) as the only friends.

Bass;

http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showt...topic=3249&st=0

 

As mentioned above, after a while I may have realized the secret to the longevity of the Armenian nation. It is common knowledge that there were once mighty empires known as Assyrian, Babylonian etc. They at times conquered half of the known world each in their own turn. Not only did they conquer militarily but culturally as well. Armenians used to use the Assyrian script until Mashtots.

Where are they now? Why is there no country/state known as Assyria or Babylonia? Yet there is an Armenia, as small as may be. How? Why?

Specially after thousands of years of persecutions, massacres and displacements there still is an Armenia.

 

What is the secret?

 

Hold on to your hats. You're going to find this very difficult to believe as it is very difficult for me to say since I have been known to be anti-you-name-it on this forum, anti-religion, anti-church, anti, anti.... Don't get me wrong, I still believe that church and religion must absolutely be a personal affair, that I may choose to blieve or not, or believe what I choose;

The Armenian Church has been our sole redeemer and conserver.

I told you to hold on to hats!!

Most of this may have been by default rather than design, most of it may have happened by stupidity rather than wisdom yet, the simple fact that the Armenian Church separated from the the Universal/Catholic Church and has been fiercely independent. (read the above confessions of Bassam again).

Had the Armenians stayed with the Catholic Church, where would we be now? Would there be an Armenia today? Is there an Assyria? Yet, again the only thing that keeps a self professed Assyrian and Babylonia is the religion (Catholic in this case) if it were not for that, given that most of them speak Arabic now, would they be distinguishable from an Iraqi or a Syrian? Similarly, throughout our history, most memorably during the 19th c. when we had lost every cultural trait, we spoke Turkish, (some exclusively), we sang Turkish (some still do), we ate Turkish (we still do), the only factor that identified us as Armenian was that we went to church (some were even conducted in Turkish) on Sundays(some still do) and the others went to the mosque.

As a whole Armenians are xenophobic and (cowards)deathly scared of others, as above this may have caused us to remain small, and it has, yet, on the other hand it has been our main and sole salvation.

Could we not grow and enlarge, assimilate and absorb our neighbors whether Christian or not yet remain Armenian?

I don't know.

Ask Bassam the Assyrian.

Are we big and strong enough now that we can welcome and assimilate*** absorb those who wish to join us?

 

I know, I know. Whenever we talk about assimilation we mean to assimilate out. Can we talk about to assimilate in?

[addai]

LOL actually your close... My screen name comes because for a few years I was a member of an East Syrian (origianlly Nestorian, but reformed somewhat later) church. They got their apostolic start in Edessa, by saints Thadeus and barnabas. That actually was one of the things that caused me to check out the Armenian Church; because I realized after I had been studying Church history that they had got their Apostolic start from the same place and apostles. So I was curious to see if their might be any similarities, or commonalities.

 

 

Besides that after studying the Chalcedonian books, and reading the East Syrian stuff I was somewhere in between on the issues. And found the Oriental Orthodox, the Armenians in particular seemed to fit pretty well (from the stuff I read from places like Sain.org etc.).

[addai]

The Armenian Church is not a church in its strictest sense. It is a monoethnic institution, a substitute, an exclusive club if you will.

Even if she may professes by the Nicene Creed (see URLs below, two versions, one uses the word "catholic" while the other prefers to use "universal" the common translation).

Catholic;

http://www.armenianchurch.org/worship/creed.html

 

..........

Thanks for your Reply Arpa. You know I studied church history (from the church fathers, church historians etc.), and the topic of "church growth" (in the Protestant or at least Western context).

 

Usually there is one point that comes from studying the Church. If churches don't evangelize others outside their ethnic group they sually go into a state of decline. Some of the stuff I've read on the Armenian Church also backs this up. I know for instance that the Armenian Evangelical Church is a very real threat, and also that quite a few Armenians can marry American Protestants and Catholics and leave the Church as well.

 

Still another problem is Armenians and (ethnics of othe orthodox churches as well) not learning their liturgical tongue as well as they should (Thus necessitating more English used in Church). And also adding to the problem of people leaving the Church over a more Americanized Protestant or Catholic one.

 

In terms of the second problem (Americanized Armenians) I really think that adopting a more open policy towards more non ethnics is beneficial. Because many converts to orthodoxy are very active and really breath a lot of life to the Church. I also think that there would be less problem retaining 2ndm 3rd, and 4th generation Armenian Americans (By having non ethnic clergy, who are more fluent in English etc.).

[Arpa]

Thanks for your Reply Arpa.  You know I studied church history (from the church fathers, church historians etc.), and the topic of "church growth" (in the Protestant or at least Western context).

======

(By having non ethnic clergy, who are more fluent in English etc.).

Forgive me Addai.

As you were writing the above lines I had realized that I neglected to welcome you.

Belatedly.

Bari ekar, Welcome!

In my previous post I emphasized the role of the church. But that was another era. Armenianism of today is defined by language as you so correctly point out. A church is a church wherever it may be, it may be conducted in any language all th eway from Afghani to Zimbabweian. As above, in eras past the church may have been our conserver and redeemer but at the present the Academy of Linguistics in Yerevan should and must be our salvation. Armenians may go any church they choose, or not, now that Armenia is a state language must be our "religion". After all one can read the Bible in one of the thousands of languages but one can only read and totally enjoy Charents and Varouzhan in the original language. Every nation may have aint this and saint that only Armenians have Sevak and Siamanto.

[Arpa]

I just discovered this;

http://www.sain.org/WINDOW/Diaspor5.txt

 

There may be some parallel opinions to what I had written above.

[addai]

Yes thanks for that article. I think when I was a Protestant, I learned that the Gospel was for the entire world (part of the Great Commision). And now that I'm Orthodox I realize that many also feel that the Church is to carry its message to all that are in the their community (Even though it doesnot actively prosletyze like the Protestant groups frequently do). I know a number of Orthodox Churches have really changed a lot in the last few decades. The antiochains are the best example, but the Coptics since the 90s also have done so, as well as the Greek and Russian Orthodox. Have taken in non ethics, as well as had ethnic priests and monks.

 

I think the question is will Church continue to see its mission purely in hanging on to and perserving its established territory. Or will it see its mission also in gaining ground. Given the fact that a nice chunck of your people don't seem to appreciate their Church (by attending church infrequently, or actually have converted to Catholicism or Protestantism). I think spending some time and energy on folks who appreciate it, the ever growing number of Protestants interested in converting over to Orthodoxy, would yield some very substantial dividens.

 

Anyway thanks for the info!

[axel]

Armenianism of today is defined by language (...) As above, in eras past the church may have been our conserver and redeemer but at the present the Academy of Linguistics in Yerevan should and must be our salvation. Armenians may go any church they choose, or not, now that Armenia is a state language must be our "religion".

 

this (linguo-centric?) conception is utterly wrong. language is no substitute for religion. a language is first and foremost a vector of communication. one may attach a sentimental value to it (a fortiori when it is endangered) but it cannot define us as a nation. What defines us as a nation is our spirit.

 

we can have a look at other nations, they still use the same language but the spirit has run dry. Take the french for example. They no longer exist as a nation. No national identity. No aspiration.Total indifference to the fate of their nation. Nothing exists beyond the individual. Take the germans, even the russians to a large extent... The list is endless for the same phenomenon is occurring everywhere. The same pattern. National decay is always due to spiritual collapse. Destruction of the faith is the best way to achieve destruction of a nation for when faith in a shared ideal disappears so does the reality of union. How can one be blind enough not to see?

 

Even from a non-religious perspective, christian faith is the best shield against sweeping materialism. if we succumb to the latter (to some extent it is already the case ), it will enslave us and we will drown in the ocean of imperialistic globalization. What has held us together until now is not geographical isolation or language or any other tradition (tradition is just empty and meaningless without the underlying spirit, the inner fire) or the existence of the Armenian Church as an institution. it is our shared faith. Our decay over the centuries has been that of our faith.

 

 

PS: sorry addai, my post is off topic.

Edited October 23, 2003 by axel

[Ludwig9]

I am happy that you have joined the Oriental Orthodox Church. And comparatively we are sister Churches. I also highly commend you, my brother in Christ, to accepting the Traditional and historic church over the Protestant Church. You have joined a Church which is one of the first Churches and has a beautifully intricate foundation and history. I am also familiar with the name you use Addia, the tiara maker as mentioned by historians Eusebius and Movses Khorenatsi.

 

Anyway, I was interested in how Non-Armenians fit into your church.

 

Are you asking about non-Armenians as individuals, or how the Armenian Church relates to non-Armenian Churches.

 

I think the priesthood could also be in my future, but don't believe I'm called to be an unmarreid priest, so I'm deleiberately waiting to get this matter settled in my life before exploring this any further.

 

The calling is a very special gift, I believe that one of the hardest jobs to do is the duty of the priest. And regarding marriage, in the Armenian Church you can marry and be a priest.

 

 

I am however very active in talking to Protestants and agnostics about Orthodoxy as a kind of layman evangelist and apologist.

 

That is what we as a Church should do. Educate the people who have misunderstandings and answer there questions.

 

 

Anyway in attending your Church, it really appealed to me a great deal. I've also read articles by father Vasken Mosevian and others and I really feel like I agree and fit in with what the Church teaches and stands for.

 

If you are serious, I can supply you with more information regarding the Armenian Church as well as people who can help you, and hopefully answer anymore of your questions.

 

As a person who is only half Armenian, I would like to say a couple of things regarding the non-Armenians in the Church. The Armenian Church is one of the very few places I have felt that makes me feel like family. I spoke very little Armenian when I originally started attending Sunday school. Now I have a great appreciation of the Classical Armenian language. If I have a question regarding a verse from the bible I try to use the Classical Armenian source for more of a clearer definition. I have also been ordained and serve on the Alter during Badarak(the Divine Liturgy). I have also seen non-Armenians attend the Divine Liturgy, I especially remember an Ethiopian couple who use to attend very frequently, from what I remember they were helping to building a Church in Ethiopia and asked for the priest blessings in there work. The priest prayed for and blessed the couple and their work. Even though mostly everything the priest prayed for the couple was in Armenian, our brothers and sisters of the Ethiopian Church still attended the Armenian Church, they knew how exactly the Divine Liturgy was conducted without understanding the Classical Armenian. I know what I have written to most individuals is the exception and not the norm. But, my intentions is to answer your questions and give you some other insights and experiences that I can offer.

[gamavor]

(a fortiori when it is endangered)

 

 

Axel, are you a lawyer? Law and theology are a very strong combination!

[axel]

Not exactly At present, I work as a software engineer. But who knows?

 

btw, the latin expression "a fortiori" is commonly used in french. I thought it would be understandable in english.

[gamavor]

Per argumentum a fortiori is the latin expression with a very strict legal meaning, as oppose to per argumentum a contrari.

Shame on me, to be fooled by a software specialist! j/b

Edited October 24, 2003 by gamavor

[axel]

Well, here's what I found after a quick lookup:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=a%20fortiori

 

Shame on me, to be fooled by a software specialist

 

[addai]

Thanks Ludwig.

 

Are you asking about non-Armenians as individuals

I was asking about how the Church relates non Armenians in particular. I see myself as a "3rd generation convert" Before I became interested in Orthodoxy there were really two generation of non-Orthodox coming into orthodox.

 

1st generation. There weren't many in this one. But the famous English (Greek Orthodox) Bishop Kallistos Ware. Who is a very famous writer and speaker came in during the late 1940s (I think). Alexander Schmemann (not sure on spelling) was also another high profile writer, speaker, teacher. who I beleive is also English, and joined the Greek Church.

 

 

2nd Generation. You have the "evangelical Orthodox Church", (x-campus crusade for christ folks), most notable Peter Quilquist. Also there was a group of Pentecostals from Oral Roberts who converted after being exposed to a Russian Orthodox priest who taught systematic theology there. And a number of others, all of which have written on the subject. Many of these folks became aware of the potential for being Orthodox after reading works by Kallistos Ware, and Schemman and realizing that they too were once converts.

 

 

3) rd Generation (Me and Others). In my area the folks who were part of the "Evangelical Orthodox Church", who joined the Antiochian church (and became priests in it), made a large church and bookstore (Concilliar press, Ben Lomond). And a few years before I converted also a Vineyard Church, actually switched from being a non-denominational Charsimatic Church, to being Antiochian (Syrian Melkite).

 

 

Anyway, in reading up on Orthodoxy etc. I've already seen that non-ethics have actually joined the "Church establishement" and made a signiifcant impact for the faith and in representing the Faith for the rest of the non-Orthodox Christian world. So I was exploring what the Armenian Churches's position. My guess was for the time being it was more focused on their own ethnic group. I was interested in the potential in the distant future of possibly bieng a missionary priest, for nonethics (especially Protestants) who are interested in Orthodoxy. So far the Antiochain Church is the most set up for that (on the west coast, their churches are largely populated by converts to Orthodoxy). And theres a few more,

Orthodox Church of America (Basically an Americanized Russian ORthodox Church), and the Greek church to a lesser extant. The Coptic Church has made a big effort to reach out to non-Copts since the 1990s(one of the reason I feel so welcome there). I am however unaware of any non-Egyptain ethnic, priests (Although this could simply be a matter of time) I however have taken a shine to the Armenian Church and would have that be my "first pick" I I would ever to something like this.