TimeForChange Posted September 20, 2003 Report Share Posted September 20, 2003 I've read somewhere that the population of Armenia is constantly experiencing a decline in numbers. Hayastansis are leaving the country in search of better living conditions while Diasporans are staying put in their newly-adopted countries. Considering that a declining population eventually leads to lower (or even negative) economic growth, shouldn't this trend be reversed? What can we do about it? Diasporans, I think, don't want to "make the move" to the homeland probably because (1) the quality of life isn't the same, (2) the language is not exactly the same, and (3) the tensions surrounding Nagorno-Karabagh, and (3) other reasons I can't think of. Waiting for the conditions to be perfect, Diasporans continue to invest in the future of Diaspora schools and churches, to ensure the passing of the torch. They could instead give all this money to Armenia, and move to Armenia, but they chose to invest it locally instead. Now, why is that? Is it because Armenia is not welcoming enough? Is it because humans in general tend to be reluctant to change? Maybe if the Armenian government didn't consider Diasporans as just "lobbyist" in the Western world, maybe if the Soviet corruptions to the Armenian language were removed, maybe then the average Joe Diasporian would be more inclined to look at the possibility of doing business in Armenia or even giving money to the government? After all, why not invest in Armenia (political instability aside)while prices are still cheap? There is a lot of money sitting in the bank accounts of Diasporans. Working in a bank (though not for long, 'cause I'm too entrepreneurship-minded, and the bureaucracy is killing me), I know that for a fact. Although the language issue is not an urging topic in Armenia, I think that it should be resolved. It would strengthen the relationship between Diasporans and the republic, thereby indirectly boosting the economy. I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted September 20, 2003 Report Share Posted September 20, 2003 Diasporans don't go back to Armenia for the same reason that Hayastantsis leave Armenia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikephoros_Phokas Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 I do not understand why Armenia and most the rest of the former USSR and Eastern bloc their birth rate is declining while Armenia's muslim neighbors have no such problem. Does anyone know why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 Perhaps in different cultures there are different standards associated with raising children. After all, giving birth is not a hard endeavor, raising them is the one – that is if this responsibility is recognized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikephoros_Phokas Posted September 26, 2003 Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 That was a bad answer, even I can give a better explanation. Lately I have been reading quite a few articles on Baku-Ceyhan. In one of them it was mentioned that much of the Turkish country-side was not connected to the national power grid. Very recently I read another article about Baku-Ceyhan about this villager in Georgia that was Armenian complaining that Baku-Ceyhan was gonna pipe through his village and yet his village had no gas or electricity. When countries are in the process of modernization and urbanization is when populations usually explode. Germany when it was industrializing, England, France, etc. all had exploding populations. But countries around Armenia like Turkey they have been modernizing since before the founding of the Turkish Republic and are still not close to done, Iran has its population growing even faster than Turkey. When they finish capitalist modernization they will be using a capitalist economy. When they modernize families will not be having kids unless they can afford them. This is why in countries like Germany, Greece, etc. the birthrate is declined, people will not have kids unless they can afford it. Also young people are not wanting to become baby factories, they want to spend their time dating for more years, not like the old days with arranged marriages and dowries. This is not like in Turkey or Iran where much of the countryside has less of a money based economy. The more hands they have the more food they can grow etc. Even in Greek villages most villagers depend alot on their own gardens for fruits vegetables, many have their own goats for milk, etc. with their being major businesses except a few tavernas, cafes that make most of their money in summer. Greeks in cities buy figs because there are few fig trees, Greeks in villages do not need to they are too many figs for them to eat, they are sold domestically and internationally and eaten by the villagers, this is the same in villages everywhere and compared to cities where you have to buy things and cannot grow. So modernized and highly urbanized countries with advanced capitalism people most will not have kids because if they cannot afford it. Growing food, the more hands you have, the bigger the family the more you can grow. The process from moving from agrarian to a modern economy is when populations explode. In Islamic societies even compared to traditional Christian societies the muslims were getting married much younger. In the book "Not Even My Name" by Thea Halo it was mentioned that Themia Halo's family moved to a Turkish town as their father was a blacksmith, eventually they moved out of this town because they did not like how the Turks were looking at their pre-pubescent daughter which was normal for their society but appalling to them as Pontian Greeks. Also because Iran and Turkey are traditional and not very modernized women have a low status and also because they are muslim women have an especially low status. In the countries that have experienced advanced stages of capitalism the women are an important part of the workforce and most do not want to have many kids, but in muslim societies which are not modernized few women have the option to be careerists and many of them do not have many options for socializing in a village so becoming a baby factory is more attractive, then in areas where there are things to do like going out with friends, when you have a child you cannot have it and carry on like you did before you had it going out every night. Where is there to go out at night in an Iranian village? What I cannot understand is why the Former Soviet bloc the populations of these Christian societies are declining in population while the muslim ones like Uzbekistan are exploding. Is it because these Christian societies underwent Soviet modernization and now most of them are declining economically compared to the Soviet period? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 Nick, you are wrong about industrialization. The fact that some Armenian village in Georgia doesn't have sewage doesn't mean that those countries are not industrialized. Exactly the opposite. They were heavily industrialized, but in the wrong way. So, if there is any connection between the level of the industrialization and the birth rate ... here we go. I tend to agree with MJ's answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikephoros_Phokas Posted September 28, 2003 Report Share Posted September 28, 2003 (edited) I am not talking about industrialization. That was back in the days when England followed by France and then Germany were doing their capitalist modernization that industrialization was important. China is much more industrialized than say Greece but that does not mean its economy is at the level of Greece. What matters is generating money and Greece's economy generates more money per capita for its population than more industrialized China, Russia and other such countries. If you can generate more capital more money through tourism, the service sector, shipping(Greece) than simple manufacturing(China) then that economy that generates more money is more advanced. Industrialization mattered more when economies were more isolated before WWII. Now if you can generate more foreign money somehow, through tourism then you do not need manufacturing to be as strong. I am talking about moving from a traditional society to a modern society with advanced capitalism. The movement from an agrarian economy to a capitalist one where instead of people living in villages sewing or mending their own clothes, fetching water from wells, growing much of their own food, most of the population lives in cities and gets water piped in exchange for money from the muncipality, buys their clothes and throw them away when they are torn and buy their own food. When a society is modernized as such the young people do not get married very young. Many people go through years of being a bachelor before getting married which is less common in traditional societies where many go from being a member of their family to starting to form their own family right away with no transition through an arranged or early marriage. In advanced capitalist societies many young people want to date, go out with their friends to watch movies, go to clubs, etc., which they cannot do if they have kids. In traditional societies that are not very urbanized you do not have much options for entertainment especially in a village so they do not think they are missing out if they are busy raising kids. In traditional societies the family is very important, this is why in Italy ex-land of the mama the population is dropping, Italy has modernized. In a agragrian countryside if you have a large field to farm and you have more kids, when they grow up you can put them to work on the farm. In a city in an advanced capitalist nation if you have a househould income of 20,000 dollars or Euros a year and you have wife then you have 10,000 for each member of the family. If you have 3 kids and your income stays the same then you have less money per member of the family and this will discourage having a large family that would be difficult to support. This is what I am talking about. In a capitalist society people are discouraged from having kids unless they have the money to raise them. In traditional societies with little capitalism the more hands the more agrarian work that can be done as they kids grow and they are put to work. Understand? A kid can help around the house, around the farm when he/she is ten but he cannot get a job in an advanced capitalist society at this age as they have labor laws. I have read articles about how in Bulgaria in the villages now that the economy is much worse after the collapse of the Soviet bloc, the collapse of the Bulgarian economy, many people in villages and towns are surviving off potatoes and tomatoes that they grow themselves. What I cannot understand is why their economy seems to head to more agrarian based that their population is declining severly while nearby muslims societies their populations explode. Edited September 28, 2003 by Nikephoros_Phokas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poghosyan Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 About moving from a traditional to a modern society. In Armenia this is gonna take a while. And the culture and traditions will take much longer to change, even if the economy starts growing. I don't consider Armenia in such a bad shape where people grow their their own food (maybe in villages), but the traditions are still going very strong there. You are talking about young people not wanting to have kids because they feel like going out and having fun longer. I don't think this is true for the Armenian society. Although it's not as bad as having arranged marriages at the age of 13 and 14, young people are expected to get married by the time they are in their twenties. Not like in the more modernized countries in the Western Europe, there is a pressure from the society to get married and have children.What concerns the people in the villages that have children in order to have helping hands for the agricultural work. In Armenia the farmers don't have enough land and resources even for themselves to keep busy and to feed themselves. Having kids means feeding them, and when they grow up there won't be any work for them to do anyway.Now, why the downturn in the birthrate in Armenia? First of all you have to take into consideration that a lot of families decided to have more children after the earthquake in '88, so the birth rate during the late 80s and the early 90s was higher than normal. It was bound to go down after a while. Second, as we all know people have been leaving the country and not always with the whole family. We have many many families that are split up with the wife taking care of the children at home, and the husband working out of the ocuntry to support the family. I think we have a better view of our Armenian women than to think that they would be having babies while their husbands are away. Third, the country has been in a war for years. I think this fact just speaks for itself. Nobody wants to have babies during such a time, even if the men in the family are not fighting and are still home. And finally the economic situation that you were talking about. People can't even support themselves. How are they gonna support several children? OK, this came out to be really wrong, but I think I said everything I menat to.I hope this clarifies some of your concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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