History

[Arpa]

 

This exchange is from that site in Hamshen.

I will not comment at this as it is self evident.

As I mentioned in my other post in the Other section see if you recognize so called Dr. Stephen Hewletts from that Azery bathouse.

The following were posted in the English language by people who seem to have a fair command of the language. And we thought Turks were the masters of creative histriography. Then again who knows if this Dr. of history studied history at Ankara U or Baku University.

My apologies for the length of the post but it must be seen in its entirety.

 

Dear Azerbaijani people,

I think we should forgive one another and try to move on with our lives. We should work together hard to open a way towards prosperity and frienship. But we should never forget this tradegy that took lives of ten thousands of our great nations, crippled our economies and made most of our good people find a new home abroad, causing deep phsycological wound that would take decades to cure, at the same time overcoming foreign powers' pressure in their destructive way of exploitation of our natural resources and national wealth.

We are obliged, as neighbors, as future potential allies to come to such a decision on Artsax that would garantee peace and stabiity in the region, and make any future confrontation impossible and unacceptable by both sides, no matter who comes to power in Azerbaijan and Armenaia, and no matter how hard and by whatever means foreign powers would try to destabilize the region playing there own political games. The only solution that we see is to give the de facto now existing Nagorno Artsax Republic an "independent" status with an agreement with Azerbaijan that would oblige Artsax to have open border policy with Azerbaijan and the return or new settlement of Azerbaijani citizens in Artsax upon such request from citizens, providing that they will have all the benefits as the Artsax born citizens do. Artsax should be obligated to report to a special official representative from the Azerbaijani government, who would have his headquater or embassy in Artsax, and would help Azerbaijani born citizens with there problems or complaints to Artsax authorities. He would make sure that rights of Azerbaijani citizens are protected, including the rights to religion, freedom and pursuit of happiness. If any major problems occur, He is sopposed to notify the Azerbaijani government and take the matter to higher levels of authority between Artsax and Azerbaijan. Armenia, after Artsax is recognized as an independent state by Azerbaijan, immediatly should recognize the independence of Artsax and the special agreement between Artsax and Azerbaijan. Armenia should make sure that all its armed forces are out of Azerbaijani territory, and provide the safe resettlement of Azeri people in the region.

Amenia is obligated to respect Nagorno Artsax's soveregnty and not try to press the government of Nagorno Artsax to favor new laws or make ammendments to the Constitution that would restrict human rights or discriminate nationals of other countries or ethnic minorities. The conditions for immigration of foregn nationals, including Azerbaijani citizens should not be restricted or the benefits cut at any time, except for when there is a serous threat to the National Security, such as an attempted coup or illigal overthrow of the government. Even at times of a Marshal Law when the situation is under the controll by the democratically elected authorities, all the immigration benefits should be restored immediatly.

Azerbaijan should be obligated to povide an open border for Armenian Citizens through its territory, (especially through Lachin Corridor) to enter Nagorno Artsax Repulic and vice verse. Azerbaijan has to provide a safe open border for Nagorno Artsax and freedom for their citizens to travel through Azerbaijan.

Artsax like Armenia should also have a permanent official representative in Azerbaijan in a form of a embassy. Azerbaijan should open the blocade of Armenia and Artsax on permanent bases. Likewise Armenia should open the blocade of Nakhichevan. Armenia and Azerbaijan should not concentrate large amount of troops near Artsax or provide Artsax government or Artsax citizens any military assistance. Noagorno Artsax Republic should have its own defence and national security ministry independent from any foregn influence. The open border policy between Armenia and Azerbaijan should be negotiated in more detail.

 

We hope that the people of Armenia, Nagorno Artsax and Azerbaijan will take this plan into considiration and resolve this conflict peacefully.

 

Sincerly,

Sergey Arakchyan

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I read your debate with sad feeling. Today we witness once again how people with no historical education whatsoever attempt to argue on historical issues. Unfortunately, History is a very vulnerable subject. For the "outsiders" (under this term I mean people of academic background other than History) History may seem an easy subject, since it does not imply formulas or specific scientific rules. However, let me tell you that when a non-historian speaks (or even argues!) with the historian about his discipline, the best way for the latter to escape from the numerous and astonishing nonsenses and thereby safe the ears is just to "agree" with the other side and end the conversation.

 

For this reason, I will not even start the conversation with many of you, especially with Mr. Galstian and Mr. Lautreamont. Again, the reason is that you guys have absolutely no clue (sorry for the tone) about the history of the region. What you say is what you read in the articles of the same kind of "history-lovers". You guys have never studied in the world archives, you have never used specific historical methodologies and techniques, and you simply don't know the subject. Believe me. All you are arguing for is what you would like it to be, but not what is in reality. History is an exact subject. It always leaves evidences, which are... guess what? yes, historical sources.

 

It is the historical sources that provide the researchers with the information. It is the historical sources the researcher make the conclusions from. And only the researcher who uses (and knows HOW TO USE!) the historical sources can make correct conclusions.

 

As a person who spent all my life in doing researches on Middle East and Caucasus, as the Professor of History at Cambridge University with teaching experience at Yale, Manchester, LSE, as an absolutely impartial side, I will just brief you some facts that are indisputable and are the HISTORY.

 

- Armenians have not lived in Transcaucasia for the centuries. It is a myth. The first massive Armenian immigration to the Erivan, Nakhichevan and Artsax Khanates started in 1828 and it was encouraged by the Russian Tsarist government. The Russian Ambassador to Iran, Alexander Griboedov, had described the resettlement of the Iranian Armenians in the above mentioned lands in his memoirs. Even after the first massive arrival of the Armenians to Transcaucasia, the original Muslem population (mainly Azeris) remained the majority in Erivan, Artsax and Nakhichevan.

 

- There still exists the monument in Nagorno Artsax which comemorates the arrival of the first immigrants to Nagorno Artsax. It was erected in 1978 in Leninavan (Mardakert region of Nagorno Artsax) to mark the 150th anniversary of the Armenian immigration. Until recently, there was a script on the monument, but after the outbreak of the conflict, Armenians had erased the script.

 

- All pre-1828 Christian buildings in Nagorno Artsax are Albanian (don't confuse the Caucasian Albanians with the European Albanians). Albanians were the only indigineous population of Nagorno Artsax, and they were assimilated into the Azeri ethnos in the Middle Ages, long before the Armenian immigration. Therefore, only the modern Azeris can be considered to be the descendants of the Caucasian Albanians (the fact accepted by the world historical scholarship).

 

- Only after the Crimean War, 1853-55, when the second massive immigration of the Armenians from Turkey took place, did the Armenians outnumber the Azeris in Transcaucasia. The purpose of Russia's promotion of the Armenian immigration was to create a Christian province in the South which was to serve as a stronghold for further Russian penetration of Iran and the Ottoman Empire.

 

- Armenian immigration continued in the 1890s after the disastorous rebellion of the Armenians in Anatolia in 1894-95.

 

- There was no so-called "Armenian genocide" in 1915. The Ottoman government ordered the resettlement (even not the deportation, since it was the resettlement within the same country) of the Armenian population from Eastern Anatolia to Syria because they started massacres of the Turks and Kurds on the eve of the Russian advance. Armenians in all 6 villayets were in minority. The goal of the Dashnaktsutsiun leaders was to provoke unrest in Anatolia, cause sympathy of the Entente and to acquire a statehood after the defeat of Turkey. More than 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were killed by the Armenian rebels in 1914-18, while around 600.000 Armenians suffered during the resettlement. "Genocide" is the state policy of extermination of the nation. There was obviously no such a policy adopted by the Ottoman government in 1915, and what it ordered was the reaction to the Armenian violence towards Turkish and Kurdish civilians.

 

- Stalin never "granted" Artsax to Azerbaijan. In 1921, the decision was made to "leave" Artsax within, and not to "transfer" to, Azerbaijan. If you look at the Protocol of the Kavbuero Meeting of 5th July, 1921, (every historian nowadays can order the document from the former Party Archive in Moscow) you will read exactly the word "leave". So, when you "leave" something somewhere, it obviously implies that it was there before. Masterly manipulating with the words, Armenians pursue the aim to justify their territorial claims to Azerbaijan. In addition, in 1921 Stalin did not have enough power to "grant" territories or to take such kind of important decisions. He was an ordinary minister (narkom), and his power was very limited. Contemporary advocates of the Armenian Cause use Stalin's name, known for his brutal dictatorship, to justify their territorial intentions.

 

- More than 400 geographical names in modern Armenia were renamed from Turkic to Armenian.

 

- The first violence in the 1980s took place in late 1987, when the Armenians expelled 4.000 Azeris from Kafan, Masis and Goris. Azeri refugees were the first in the conflict. They were sent to Sumgait, where only 3 months later the tragedy broke out. It is the undisputable fact that two ethnic Armenians (Grigorian and Oganov) were arrested in Sumgait for killing at least 6 Armenians. Armenians are responsible for the first violence in the conflict, which is the expulsion of the Azeris in 1987.

 

- The first vicitms in the conflict were Azeris - two guys killed by Armenians few days before the Sumgait tragedy in Askeran.

 

- No single bullet had fallen on the Armenian soil since the beginning of the conflict. The war took place only on the territory of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan is the victim, Armenia is the aggressor.

 

These are only few facts. If you are interested in more information or if you want to read my books and articles, leave your message and address here. I will be happy to send them to you.

 

Regards,

Dr. Steven Howletts

Cambridge University

=========

 

Su yaziya cevaben: I read your debate with sad feeling............................... makale yazari: Dr. Steven Howletts Tarih, gün ve saat : 16. Eylül 2003 04:01:16:

 

"Dr. Steven Howletts", allegedly from Cambridge University, is apparently fictitious, and his historical assertions have no more weight than his evansecent self. Whoever "Dr. Steven Howletts" may be, his many errors in English language usage show that he is no native speaker of the language. Some of his mistakes are typical of Turkish speakers of English, but I cannot be certain from this that he is a Turk. In any event, his postings can safely be ignored -- or laughed at...

===============

 

Tarih, gün ve saat : 16. Eylül 2003 05:18:08:

 

Su yaziya cevaben: I read your debate with sad feeling............................... makale yazari: Dr. Steven Howletts Tarih, gün ve saat : 16. Eylül 2003 04:01:16:

 

Mr Howletts,

Thank you for clarifying our obscured minds with the brightness of your talents. History, as a series of facts, might be the poems you like to memorize and recite; but History as the intricate web that glues and structures the fact requires more insight and a perpicacious mind which you definetely lack. Some of facts you mention might be real, but facts outside a context mean nothing, because they can be presented and interpreted in so many different ways. How old are you? Your naive yet pompeous and arrogant presentation of Historical sciences and yourself suggest that you are either a second hand assistant or quite immature. You might have learned some historical facts, but you failed to learn the intellectual tools and means to analyze them. I am sure that a data-mining tool is better equiped to extract knowledge from documents and archives than you do. I don't want to waste my time with sterile discussions about History and if you know how to read archives objectively: it's not my mission in life and this is not the appropriate place. Please read my messages in the same manner. But, are you able of such a careful reading of documents? Furthermore, no one with the right mind would attempt to discuss controversial historical facts in a forum that is more like a chaotic arena where lack of discipline is the law. Sir,

get real and stop making a fool of yourself. Enough said. Let me simply conclude saying that:

'The dogs bark, the caravan passes by' ( From the french, "Les chiens aboient, le caravan passe". I am sure you are bright enough to decipher the meaning of the adage! If not study french History).

Regards.

Lautreamont.

P.S. Based on your intellectual credibility, I think we should check if you're really affiliated with Cambridge University, and if not I would like to investigate if it is reprimendable by the law to claim so.

[THOTH]

Yes very good - interesting post. This Howletts character (certainly an Azeri posing) has been posting (this same crap) on various sites for the last few years (I'm sure Domino can specifically enlighten us and provide some details)...

 

It's very funny this claim of Armenains as recent arrivals in the Caucuses - am I not mistake but are there still existing some church/churches (with Armenian writing in/on them) etc dating from as early as the 600s? I think I saw this recently on a program titled "Armenian Identity" or some such (though I'm no expert on these things & have never claimed to be...)

[America-Hye]

This BS from the Turks is nothing new. As I stated in the other thread, the only things we should care about is the military strength and military alliances of the ROA and the economic well-being of Armenians worldwide. The massive Turkish campaign to falsify history is nothing new. That is not to say that Dadrian and others should not lampoon these lies.

[gamavor]

The buldozing of Armenian culture, cross stones, and other monuments are intended to creat a new nation. A nation which has no culture and no history. A nation of nomads speaking turkic language who have never had their own state. Basically a gypsy kind of people with grim understanding of history. When you see a church with armenian inscriptions build in late 9 - 10 c. how could you explain that it is Albanian???? You better distroy it. Same was done in so called Turkey and whenever one of us points out the genetic imbecility of this other fake nation, a bunch human rights loving Armenians jump over to defend them.

 

The best turk is the dead turk...together with all their mongol friends from the Balkans to the Chineese Great Wall.

[THOTH]

Gams - i apreciate your pain - but not (all of) your facts & sentiments.

 

The Turks of today are a racially mixed lot (incredibly much so) - and ists so evident from looking at them. They have at least as much Greek, Slav and other stuff mixed in as they do the original Turkick (and even there a mix...) - now I don't discount what you are saying about their tearing down/destroying/neglecting/misapropriating Armenian structures and cultural symbols etc - and that they have done such out of hate/fear/guilt etc and their overiding (pseudo-ethnic based) nationalism and xenophobia. You may consider me a defender of Turks (and against certain [racist & generalizing] accusations this is true - but I like you am disgusted and upset over these practices and behavior and equally condemn them. This doesn't mean I am in favor of fostering additional hatred and call for the extirmination of an entire group of people - I think these type of attitudes say more about those holding them (and not in a good way) then they are any accurate or useful commentary regarding the people whom such as you hold these attitudes against.

[DominO123]

I can confirm that this professor does not exist.

[gamavor]

Thoth, I know that turks of today are racially mixed people. Same is true for many other nations, but do you think it makes any difference if they so proudly claim that they are turks. I don't care if they have Armenian, Greek or Slav blood in their veins.

[TimeForChange]

The saddest thing about this BS professor is that he is one of the many who keep on throwing oil on the fire, instead of trying to extinguish it.

 

Fellow Armenians, let us not be blinded by his comments, do not let hatred fill your hearts. Remember, we are the good guys, we will never look down, but we shall not, as did BS professor, be the ones who shoot first. The World won't look at us kindly.

 

There was a time when all religions could cohabit under a single Empire. The Ottoman Empire, which was essentially a bit like the present European Union. If we keep on fighting, Turks , Azeris, and Armenians will all lose. It is at a time when we all collaborated with each other that the Empire was strongest.

 

Let us look at the future. BS professor, tell your government to recognise the Genocide once and for all, so that peace may actually happen and the Caucasus may reclaim its place in the world and become a union as strong as the European Union.

 

None of us (Armenians, turks, whatever...) wants to be ruled by another people under an Empire, so why not heal each other's wounds (by recognizing the Genocide) and establish a Caucasian Community of Nations which would gather small coutries (including Georgia, etc...) to face the bigger entities of this world.

 

Let's face it Turkey, you won't join the European Union until this matter is resolved. And, you would be better off being kind to your neighbours, instead of trying to suck up to nations that are much richer.