A Biblical Case for the Death Penalty

[America-Hye]

KOA,

 

I need some time and some sleep before I can research the homicidal ravings of Rev. Rushdoony.

 

Yes, I understand how dififcult it has been for Armenians to maintain their uniqueness in a sea of Moslems. Yet, it is following the wrong path to veer as far from true Christianity as we have. Why are we following the road ot the Papists?Do you realize how bankrupt the Catholic Church is? Cardinal Ratzinger issues fatwas against whole classes of people, yet conceals much more damaging information about those within his employ.

[KnightOfArmenia]

The Catholic Church has pulled back on its stance against so many, especially under John Paul II; so now you say it proclaims fatwas. That's just greeeaaat.

 

The Church has remained the same. You, on the other hand, are a foreign born, foreign raised individual who believes that what YOU have learned MUST be the truth, and therefore any individual or institution that has a different viewpoint is not only wrong, but is evil.

 

Listen to yourself and the wording of your condemnations of others; you repeatedly break the commandment, "Thou shalt not judge;" you are not one to point fingers at others.

[America-Hye]

KOA,

 

I am not that far from the Motherland. I am a first generation American. Both my parents were born in Western Armenia. However, only one of my four grandparents was ever a member of the Apostolic faith, and she left that Church at a very early age when she married my grandfather, a Catholic.

 

You say that I am judging. I have every right to judge. I do not know if my confused sexuality is inborn or not, but the experiences I had at a very tender age at the hands of church personnel surely did not contibute to what is known as a "normal" sexuality. What a curse it was to be entered into child beauty contests, where the predators would become aware of me.

 

I am targeted by those who have violated me, yet they claim to be the upholders of morality. The Armenian Church is one of the organizations who are most vociferously calling for my condemnation, even goading their parishoners to kill persons like me. And you are chastising me for judging these religious paragons of virtue?

[KnightOfArmenia]

Since we allow lower Church officials to marry, unlike the absolute Catholic forced celibacy, I find it hard to believe that Armenian holy men abused you in any way. Spanking, that I would believe; I myself was punished, though I did deserve it

[KnightOfArmenia]

Also, you are judging them based on religious matters; to do so, you, yourself, have to abide by said religion, to be able to accuse them of not following the letter (or the spirit) of the faith. Since you are not, you are, again, not one to judge.

 

And being angry at a religion because it frowns upon you, your lifestyle, or whatever, is not the best reason to use in a debate.

[Sasun]

America-Hye, it doesn't seem to me that you are judging. If the clergy have abused you, you have the right to raise your legitimate comtempt. On the other hand, if you say that the clergy should be killed or castrated, that would be judgement (Actually I am not sure that you don't say these things. Do you?)

[America-Hye]

KOA,

 

How can you say that I am not following the spirit of the faith? Since my divorce I have had carnal knowledge of only one individual, a young woman, and that only once in a state of inebriation.

[America-Hye]

I have NEVER been a parishoner in any Armenian church, Loosavorchagan, Catholic or Evangelical. I have gone to funerals and weddings in all three. Although I was married to an Armenian, we were married by an odar Protestrant minister in a spectacular outdoor setting. Me ex-wife did not want to please her parents by getting married in an Armenian Church, surrounded by the top-top level Republican friends of her parents.

[America-Hye]

Sasun,

 

I do not advocate any kind of violence against the clergy. What I advocate is getting this kind of stuff into the open. Lifetime celibacy is not a natural state. The Armenian Church is more realistic in this regard than the Catholic Church.

[KnightOfArmenia]

Remaining celibate isn't the only article of faith in the Armenian church. Observing the religious holidays, going to church, prayer; all of these are part of the foundation on which the Armenian faith is built upon.

 

You are not a practitioner of the Armenian faith, by your own admission; that you condemn the "religious right" and the Rev. (who, I believe, is not of the Apostolic Church?) for their views is the proof that you are judging them. If the Rev. came up and punched you in the face, yes, that is acceptable to "judge" then, because you are an injured party; but to stand on your own soapbox and preach against HIM standing on a soapbox and preaching is hypocrisy in a rather pure form.

 

The Christian faith is not what it was 2000 years ago, and those who claim to maintain the faith of a particular church have to follow the articles and codes of that particular church as well; open homosexuals can't be Catholic for the simple reason that Catholicism does not approve of homosexuality. The fact that people try to apply "isms" to religion is laughably absurd; calling a denomination racist or sexist because it does not approve of something or other is as judgmental as the church. Guess what? Churches don't exist to please everyone. They exist to continue a code set upon at a certain time, and provide followers of that particular code a comfortable place of worship. I don't believe Mohammed was anything other than just another Arab; that doesn't mean I go protesting at the local mosque, saying that they are liars.

 

And until you provide the quote that you repeatedly use, I won't give it a response.

[America-Hye]

I need time to search for his pronouncements. In the meanwhile, Christianity has INDEED undergone many changes in 2000 years. The last true follower of Christ died approximately 1500 years ago.What is practiced today is a melange of some Christian ideals and a Syrian sun-worshiping cult by the name of Sol Invictus that had been the religion of Constantine before he purportedly became a Christian. I will elaborate upon this later.

[axel]

one advice Stormy, educate yourself before making judgements. or are you just acting out of bad faith?

 

http://www.chrysostom.org/jews.html

[Sasun]

Both agree that, while Chrysostom's bombastic rhetoric is pretty offensive to modern ears, he's not coming down on the Jews out of a clear blue sky - he's primarily rebuking Judaizing Christians who attend Synagogue on Saturday and Church on Sunday, still trying to live in both worlds, and who teach others to do the same

 

But I don't see what is wrong with that. If somebody chooses to worship God in this way, why should someone else attack him. Is it a sin? Does Christ ever say it is wrong? I am surprised that Jews didn't criticize Judaizers since they never accepted Christ.

[KnightOfArmenia]

Christ... people hear one little thing and believe they have a degree in the field.

 

First, the Syrian god was not "Sol Invictus;" that term itself is Latin. The sun worship was basically the worship of Apollo, which had become extremely popular in the Roman worlde. Constantine simply overlapped many of the Roman Catholic holidays with the sun worshippers' holidays to let people fall into the same routine. He also combined many aspects of Mithraism into Christianity; you get bonus points if you know what Mithraism is without having to look it up.

 

To say that we are not "true followers of Christ," by the way, completely removes you from this conversation as a fair judge. Once again, my point; you stand on your soapbox and preach against anyone who DARES stand on another soapbox and preach! How DARE they!!

 

Guess what? It could just as likely be that your view on Christianity is the skewed one. Did that even occur to you? Or were you so holier-than-thou that you didn't stop to think that you could be wrong.

 

And Constantine was about 1700 years ago, not 1500. 1500 was approximately the time that the Battle of Avarayr was fought; Constantine converted the Roman Empire in 313 AD.

Edited August 21, 2003 by KnightOfArmenia

[joseph parikian]

America-Hye

And in your opinion what is the true Christian faith

And is there any Nomination from the more than three thousend so called Christian nominations in America that fallows the true Christian faith , can you name me one

Is the true Christian faith in your opinion have to satisfy every one

Jesus him self did not please every one because if he did why he was crosifide

[KnightOfArmenia]

Well, his crucification is an article of faith; God decreed that he HAD to die on the cross, in order to suffer for the sins of Man and redeem us.

 

But the way that America-Hye crystalizes his own views as the "right" one and scoffs other views is just incredible.

[axel]

But I don't see what is wrong with that. If somebody chooses to worship God in this way, why should someone else attack him. Is it a sin? Does Christ ever say it is wrong? I am surprised that Jews didn't criticize Judaizers since they never accepted Christ

 

He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. (Luke 11,23)

 

Sasun, I know you are a well-intentioned person and I appreciate you a lot but there are elements of christianism you seem to ignore and tend to replace by your own sentimental judgements (I am not sure "sentimental" is the correct english word but I guess you understand my point) . Some of your syncretic views on religion, such as considering Christ as a man, not as God-man (if I recall what you wrote some time ago) are unacceptable from the christian standpoint. The latter is actually known as Arius' heresy which has vigorously been condemned for it reduces christianism to a simple humanistic philosophy (which it is not)

[axel]

Judaization is an attempt to destroy Christianism. As such, it is not surprising that judaizers are not criticized by jews (By jews here, I mean the followers of the jewish faith not ethnic jews for there are obviously ethnic jews who are christian and not judaizers)

[Rousas]

AMERICAN-HYE, you said:

Rev. Rushdoony's grandson clearly stated in this thread that killing is not necessarily murder. This can be understood in time of war or if one commits a murder. But these preachers are espousing the right of people to go out on our streets and murder those whom they dislike.

This is a blatant lie. I never said this. My grandfather never said that the people have a right to go into the streets and murder those whom they dislike. Nothing further could be from the truth. Capital punishment is a matter of the court, utilizing Biblical law justly and rightly. He and I never said to form a mob and kill people we disagree with. That is a down-right LIE!

You also told someone the following in a vain attempt to defend your statement:

I will try to find Rushdoony's exact quotes. Obviously, you do not know of his Chalcedon Foundation.

You will TRY indeed, and find nothing. Simply because the man never said anything that would give people the idea that the Bible allows them to... "Go out into the streets and kill or maim any who do not agree with you." Either you cannot understand what you read or you have never read that which you pretend to know. I will remind you that a godly man would keep silent about such things of which he does not know.

It is statements such as the ones you have made that malign one of the most godly men I have ever had the pleasure of knowing, without any documentation backing up such spiteful words. Most likely someone whom you admire has said such things and you continue to spread lies and gossip about a man whom you have never known and of whose books you have never read. I think I am quite accurate in saying that everything you have posted concerning Rushdoony on this website is completely fabricated. I ask you in all fairness, why? Why would you tell people that he said things of which he did not speak nor write?

 

SASUN,

I am truly sorry that I have not replied to your request, as yet. I will do so this afternoon, when I have more time to be thorough in my response.

[Stormig]

one advice Stormy, educate yourself before making judgements. or are you just acting out of bad faith?

 

http://www.chrysostom.org/jews.html

What is unfortunate is that this misuse of the saint's words is based significantly on a mistranslation of the title of the sermons, translated as Against the Jews, rather than Against the Judaizers, which is the rendering the most up to date translations are now using.

 

OK. Here's the "correct" translation - does it make sense to you or seem normal in any way?

 

"How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Judaizers! They [Judaizers] are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Their [Judaizers'] synagogue is a house of prostitution, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Judaizer. As a matter of fact, Judaizers worship the devil; their [Judaizers'] religion is a disease, their [Judaizers'] synagogue a an abyss of perdition. The rejection and dispersion of the Judaizers was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Judaizers. God HATES the Judaizers, and on Judgement Day will say with those who sympathize with them [Judaizers]: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with my murderers [Judaizers]!" Flee, then, from their [Judaizers] assemblies, fly from their [Judaizers'] houses, and hold their [Judaizers'] synagogue in hatred and aversion."

[axel]

"Calling any Church Father anti-Semitic on the basis of ostensibly denigrating references to Jews, therefore, is to fall to intellectual and historiographical simple-mindedness. Applying modern sensitivities and terms regarding race to ancient times, as though there were a direct parallel between modern and ancient circumstances, is inane. This abuse of history is usually advocated by unthinking observers who simply cannot function outside the cognitive dimensions of modernity"

 

source: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/antisemitism.htm

[axel]

from the same source:

 

"I would avoid people who like to dismiss the Patristic witness because of flaws in the character of the Fathers, whether real or imagined. I befriended at Princeton a brilliant philosopher (Rose Rand), then an old woman, who was one of Wittgenstein's few female students. She was a rabid anti-Semite. But this did not make her philosophy inadequate. It did not invalidate her brilliant insight into some very intricate theories about human thought and language. The same could be said of the Fathers. If perchance some were anti-Semitic (and again, to say this unreservedly and without a clear definition of terms is to nullify the meaning of intellectual history and to use language wrongly), does this mean that the Truth which they taught was tainted by their anti-Semitism? I think not. To say so is, again, simple-mindedness and ultimately constitutes an anti-intellectual stand. And anti-intellectualism, despite its moldy and revolting presence in some Orthodox circles, is inimical to the Patristic spirit.

 

The matter at hand is, once more, complex. It should not be discussed with people who lack an appreciation for that intelligent shade of gray that lies between the antipodes of white naivete and lack ignorance. As a case in point, Dr. Rand, my aformentioned, virulently anti-Semitic friend, was a Polish Jew!"

[America-Hye]

My reply. Here is one article to read. I will post others:

 

http://reason.com/9811/col.olson.shtml

[America-Hye]

Here is another article. Scroll down to the sections commenting on Rushdoony and the Chalcedon Foundation.

 

http://newark.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/joy122.html

[America-Hye]

I guess that Rushdoony ONLY preached that the courts should have the right to put certain classes of individuals to death. However, the climate he created gives mentally ill persons the moral right to take the law into their own hands.

 

I had not been involved in homosexual practices in 20 years. I had been married, owned a home with my ex-wife and was dating a number of women. My competitors at work, knowing that I was held in high regard by my supervisors dug out old stuff from 20 years previous. A mentally compromised individual proceeded to poison me by tainting my lunch in an office refrigerator, thinking that he was doing the work of God. Part of this was that he also despised Armenians. This information gave him the justification to do what he did.