Mj's Article

[gamavor]

Have you read the "Armenian Reporter" of July 19, 2003? MJ has written an interesting article - "On the gap between the old guard and contemporary issues". I wish he could post it here.

[Harut]

well, maybe you could do your forumic (civic) duty and ask him?

[gamavor]

MJ, immediately post your article here, or else!!!

[Boghos]

The article is in here: http://www.armfreenet.org/php/july/cover.html Very worth reading...

[DominO123]

More precisly here.

 

http://www.armfreenet.org/php/july/index.p...nts/popup/guard

 

Interesting, I am surprised of his optimism.

[Arpa]

Yes Fad that is the article Gamavor was searching. So was I. Thank you. Even though I have access to MJ's AFN webpage I had not yet learned the trick of zeroing on particular subjects. I read the said article in the Reporter and what caught my attention most was the following paragraph. I must agree with Martin, and I will write to him in more detail, suffice it to say that I may have recognized some of the "dilettantes" that he may be referring to, some of them even up close personlally. I also find it distasteful, to say the least that some writers in our media rely too much on what the Turkish rags say about us and our issues. Even if their intent may be to wake us up to the fact that Turkish media and intelligentsia (an oxymoron?) are alive and kicking, corrupting past and present history and so on. Even if those "dilettantes" may mean well their constant reliance on the Turkish media may only reassert the fact that we have not yet emerged from under the Ottoman yoke, that they are practically pulling the strings and making us dance to their tune. The fact that some of those that Martin has in mind are in fact born and educated in Turkey, they are proficient in the language and know much about te Turkish mindset and their resolve to resolve the Armenian question once and for all.. a la Turque. Their calls and pleas must be heeded, but even I felt overdosed when our pages are filled what the Turk says rather than what we WE must say and do.

I hope MJ would come back so we can delve into his writings in more depth.

We know we can write to him at AFN but I wish he would reconsider his participation in this forum as well. Although I cannot blame him as many of his very thoughtful and thought provoking articles at times crated very hostile and mediocre responses.

 

Sadly, in the wake of the pursuit for justice for the Genocide we have also inherited a number of dilettantes and scavengers in the political dimension as well, some of whom have been consistently contaminating the pages of respectable Armenian newspapers with lengthy, boring, incompetent articles. This fact, on its own, would have been harmless and just annoying but unfortunately their activism goes beyond the contamination of newspapers. It enters the domain of destructive and petty politics and character assassination for lack of better things to do or due to their limited perspective in life. They have been selling their luggage, which under the best case scenario would qualify as a survey of Turkish media for political analysis, while taking their inspirations from the "Vamik Volkans" of the life - whoever they may be. They read the columns of Turkish neo-Nazis day and night and consider this experience to be so enlightening that pass their accumulated burden to the rest of us. Probably it feeds their masochistic craving to receive a dose of schizophrenic anti-Armenianism. We don't long for it and don't take our inspiration from "Volkans." We think they are not worth our time, we do not read them and we can project a better use of our energy.

[MJ]

Dear Arpa,

 

THank you for your support.

 

What can I do to meet your request?

[axel]

First of all, it is very troubling that an educated representative of a nation which takes pride in being the first Christina nation in history, has not been able to understand the meaning and the importance of forgiveness thus far. Forgiving does not mean forgetting or not pursuing justice. Between forgiving and pursuing justice there is not such a subtle difference that someone who has a claim of being an ideologist addressing large-scale national issues should understand. This difference is similar to the difference of the dues that ought to be paid to the Lord and to the Caesar, respectively. Perhaps a spiritual father may be in better shape to educate our esteemed doctors in such issues. The accomplishing of such a task is a demanding one.

 

A Christian should forgive evil that is brought upon himself. Forgiving evil brought upon others is something quite different. Only God may forgive.

[axel]

Btw, there is some irony in a non-christian giving us christian lessons. Edited August 25, 2003 by axel

[Arpa]

Btw, there is some irony in a non-christian giving us christian lessons.

QUOTE (axel @ Aug 25 2003, 02:44 PM)

 

Where did you get that from?

 

I think you did not understand my point if this is how you interpreted my post. Nor do you understand MJ's spirit.

 

I think I understood it very well.

 

 

I took the said quote from another subject topic, namely "MJ's Article" therefor I may post this under that topic too.

In the meantime, since it is once again taking the nature of religion, I'll leave it her as well.

Wher did I get it?

You may have alluded to the fact that MJ does not profess to subscribe to any organized religion, neither do I. I have been simultaneously labeled an atheist and "the best Christian ever". You interpret it for whatever it is worth.

Some of our correspondents remind of that professor of biophysics from Stepanakert/Yerevan, who, whatever the subject may have been told me in consecutive sentences that he was an atheist and then added that he could not imagine any Armenian who did not subscribe to the CHRISTIAN Armenian Apostolic Church.

This was more than a decade ago. To this day I ave nor quite grasped what he was trying to say.

Now you tell us what he meant.

[THOTH]

Super piece MJ.

 

Not to knock your points concerning the role/position of Armenia or the failings of Diasporan Armenians (organizations/individuals calling for recognition & not dealing with Turks & willing to be bought etc) - but I see the Genocide as more then "just" an Armenian issue - but one for all humanity...of course it is also personal for us...and we cannot expect others to feel it nor champion its recognition and what not as we do.

 

And I think that all your points are valid ones. And while I do agree that it is a mistake to view being an Armenian etc as striclty or primarily being a child of the Genocide - and do think that we must live in the present and look to the future (we must move on and be concerned with prospering and succeding from here on out etc) - I also see the Genocide as an ongoing thing that requires resolution/closure etc. And I see the isue as more then "just" the genocide itself...but the legacy of our people - a legacy that is equally unreconized and that is an ongoing victim of a continuing Genocide (in a sense)

 

Think of the long history of Armenians in Anatolia...a very long and vital history...something key to us as a people - our environment that has shaped us - and the land that we in turn have shaped....and now we are no more there...only remnants of old churches and perhaps a few stories/fables etc as reminders of our presence (and even these too are quickly crumbling to dust and forgotten memory)...well its been less then 100 years...barely a moment in time...from when we were the life force of these lands and it the nurturing foundation of all our existance...I don't think that we can just turn away from this - nor do I think we go quietly - and allow the forces who wish(ed) us out of exsistance to suceed.

 

By this I don't mean to champion any view that says we must attempt to retake these lands etc (because after alll land is just land and its people that really matter...)...but through recognition...not just of the Genocide - but of our heritage and contribution to Anatolia and to humanity (from our/by our achievements in Anatolia...and by this I mean the example of us as a people...our art, our culture, and all of the good and unique things about being Armenian)...it is all of this that requires recognition...in addition to the acceptance by the decendents of the purpetrators (and everyone else) that a great evil was done....(and many specific evils)...that have resulted in the elimination of a worthwhile and special people from their historic lands and the end of this people from participation in the ongoing legacy of Anatolia - to which they played such an influential role...and of course recognition that we have been denied the fruits of this land and the fruits of our long contributions. To me this recognition - and perhaps a future role/presence once again in these lands (and at the very least acknowledgement of our legacy) - in addition to sucess and prosperity and perpetuation of Armenians in Armenia and in the new lands of the Diaspora are still very real and worthwhile goals for Armenians of today....if that makes any sense to anyone...(and I know that perhaps what I am saying here is addressing your issues on tangentally...)...anyway...just on my mind of late...

[gamavor]

Wow Thoth, I agree with what you have said (yeah, I'm sentimental from time to time ) Just one minor point. I don't know anything about Anatolia. I know that Western Armenia is occupied by the turks. Geographically some called it Anatolia, others Asia Minor, but to me it is Western Armenia, from the mountains of Sasun at the Black Sea, to the castle of Lambron at the Mediterranean and from there to Kars and Ani.

 

Lets first have decent Republic of Armenia and then we will see.

[bellthecat]

Think of the long history of Armenians in Anatolia...a very long and vital history...something key to us as a people - our environment that has shaped us - and the land that we in turn have shaped....and now we are no more there...only remnants of old churches and perhaps a few stories/fables etc as reminders of our presence (and even these too are quickly crumbling to dust and forgotten memory)...well its been less then 100 years...barely a moment in time...from when we were the life force of these lands and it the nurturing foundation of all our existance...I don't think that we can just turn away from this - nor do I think we go quietly - and allow the forces who wish(ed) us out of exsistance to suceed.

 

By this I don't mean to champion any view that says we must attempt to retake these lands etc (because after alll land is just land and its people that really matter...)...but through recognition...not just of the Genocide - but of our heritage and contribution to Anatolia and to humanity (from our/by our achievements in Anatolia...and by this I mean the example of us as a people...our art, our culture, and all of the good and unique things about being Armenian)...it is all of this that requires recognition...in addition to the acceptance by the decendents of the purpetrators (and everyone else) that a great evil was done....(and many specific evils)...that have resulted in the elimination of a worthwhile and special people from their historic lands and the end of this people from participation in the ongoing legacy of Anatolia - to which they played such an influential role...and of course recognition that we have been denied the fruits of this land and the fruits of our long contributions. To me this recognition - and perhaps a future role/presence once again in these lands (and at the very least acknowledgement of our legacy) - in addition to sucess and prosperity and perpetuation of Armenians in Armenia and in the new lands of the Diaspora are still very real and worthwhile goals for Armenians of today....if that makes any sense to anyone...(and I know that perhaps what I am saying here is addressing your issues on tangentally...)...anyway...just on my mind of late...

 

You have a good memory, Winston (when it suits you) - most of what you have written seems to be based on what I talked to you about on Aghtamar. Only you have somewhat changed the point, in that I was talking about the LAND needing its original population and not the people needing their original land or needing to have some sort of participation in that land. The desire of someone to visit once or twice a lifetime, for a week or two, to somewhere that person's ancestors had some dimly-understood connection with does not seem like a particularly great need to me. All those someones probably have a far a greater desire for the latest widescreen TV, or this year's car. (And a far greater sense of loss and dissatisfaction with their life if they don't get those objects). But to feel the need, the pain, the loss, that the land still has, and may always have, you need finer senses than you posess.

[KnightOfArmenia]

About the forgiveness issue:

 

As I have oft responded to this bait, the turks don't acknowledge that there was any CRIME to forgive. If they admitted what they did and sought to restore the relations that they destroyed, then, perhaps, the Armenians would forgive them. But until they do not confess their sins, there can be no forgiveness.

[THOTH]

You have a good memory, Winston (when it suits you) - most of what you have written seems to be based on what I talked to you about on Aghtamar. Only you have somewhat changed the point, in that I was talking about the LAND needing its original population and not the people needing their original land or needing to have some sort of participation in that land. The desire of someone to visit once or twice a lifetime, for a week or two, to somewhere that person's ancestors had some dimly-understood connection with does not seem like a particularly great need to me. All those someones probably have a far a greater desire for the latest widescreen TV, or this year's car. (And a far greater sense of loss and dissatisfaction with their life if they don't get those objects). But to feel the need, the pain, the loss, that the land still has, and may always have, you need finer senses than you posess.

If you say so...though in fact I can't recall your saying anything of the sort...perhaps it was below audibility as most of what you said was except for complaints and insults of course. Still I do feel I at least owe you some thanks for your work/dedication in documenting (the state of) remaining Armenian structures in Anatolia...and for maintaining that excellent web site that you are responsible for...other then that please spare us from your one dimensional and ill informed views...particular concerning any comment on the capacities, senses and emotions of others - of which you have clearly shown little aptitude with. And as I said to you on Agktamar - it is a mistake to assume that others must be just like you to appreciate our historical legacy (including place & structures etc) - obviously you have dedicated yourself to such - and that is a noble and comendable thing - but don't assume that others cannot also see and feel and apreciate of their own accord - perhaps in ways which you may even be unable - or perhaps in ways similar to you - but arrived at through somewhat different paths. Sure a two week snapshot - or whatnot - is too brief I agree - and perhaps insufficient - but not meaningless - by no means...and yes we also have lives apart and other priorities...but there is nothing wrong with this - it is called a life (and perhaps you would be a better person if you had one) - and for most of us - who actually work for a living, this is about the most that can be expected - a once or twice in a life pigrimige of sorts - and nothing wrong with that - its just reality and again it does not automatically lessen (etc) such an experience (visiting ones homeland and becoming exposed to some of ones heritage). And don't asume that you have any real clue as to my senses and capacities - you don't. So stuff it.

[MJ]

Thoth,

 

Perhaps I will publish another material on this subject soon, which would touch slightly on some of the issues you have emphasized. It is in the pipeline unless I change my mind.

 

The sad reality is that for decades the rotten ideology of the leadership of Armenian Diaspora, which in a characteristic for herself lack of elementary vision and competence had finalized the selling out of her soul in early 80s (of this century), while not suspecting that the end of USSR was near and was going to cause the collapse of her pseudo-culture and self-cheating political doctrines, has turned the Genocide recognition into an reward that supposedly has to be awarded for the endurance of the trauma and which has to be delivered in a gift wrap. This is why today they are in disarray. The old doctrines have collapsed and they are cowards enough to assume new ones.

 

I agree with you that any genocide is the issue of all humanity. Therefore, it is safe to reiterate an earlier point that no one has ownership of the issue nor can claim ownership of the strategy of its “recognition” or whatever other action. However, by the same token, Armenians have an obligation to recognize (if this was the right word to use) the genocide of Assyrians and Pontic Greeks, among others. To the contrary, the pleas of the latter are being arrogantly rejected by the “guardians” of the Armenian Genocide recognition – organizations and individuals alike as “non-comparable issues.” Nor the government of Armenia has made any steps in recognizing the victimized status of the mentioned people. By doing so, Armenians have fallen into the same trap of inventing “genocide hierarchy,” and thus hierarchy of “chosen people” and “better chosen people,” which means, again, I agree with you that, if nothing else, then at least by our own example, we should not have legitimate expectations that someone else should or has an obligation to “recognize” our own tragedy. By the way, I find this “recognition” term disgusting. If you think carefully about it, the “recognition” is about us being recognized as victims. It is a repugnant form of self-pity.

 

I do agree that the Armenian Genocide issue needs a resolution so that the legacy/trauma caused by it may be laid off. I feel sorry for our people, especially the older generation, who with the help of the Diasporan Armenian political and social leadership have fallen prays to a self-distractive victimization syndrome. However, why would you (generic you) give the key of the much needed resolution and the role of the therapists to the very unrepentant perpetrator of the crime or to some others who have enough issues of their own. Why wouldn’t you resolve your problem yourself? After all, the trauma resides in your own psyche… No? After all not the entire nation of ours is sick, right? Only a fraction of it… Obviously, I am talking here about the psycho-sociological dimension of the problem, which is at the core of all the rest of the problems. Thus, I also agree with you that the issue here is not the fact of the Genocide but its legacy. I have publicly spoken about this many times.

 

And I am not proposing to “turn away from this or go quietly.” If someone things he/she is doing something meaningful on the subject – more power to him/her/them. It is not my place to tell others what they should do not should not do. But I would not allow others to tell me what I should do or should not do, though I am always open for a meaningful discussion which has some purpose other than to establish someone’s sick or inflated ego (this comment is not directed at you, so no need to feel defensive, please.) However, for myself, I question the meaningfulness and, frequently, the motives of our foam-in-mouth loudspeakers. I believe that it is a crime against the future of the Armenian nation to do things with a desire to “energize the base,” or to have the outdated and failed organizations and structures with no mission, whatsoever, “going.” How many more years it will go this way you think? How many more generations are they going to energize this way or “preserve?” What if the Genocide is “recognized?” Then what? As soon as an official label, “Bow your head, a bleeding heart of a victim resides under this chest” is hung from our neck we become a better nation? Or does it give us more self-justification for existence? Or should we continue being immoral and assume that as soon as we tattoo the label “Victim” or “Descendent of a Victim” on our forehead, a golden shower is going to wash us and so that we can claim ourselves back from our rotten mass psyche?

 

Our culture and achievements would not receive recognition as a result of attaching some miserable label to our foreheads or chests. They will achieve recognition and appreciation if we can create all-human values for the future, if we would claim a worthy and dignified place in the family of dignified nations, if we would stop behaving and thinking like parasites, always insinuating that someone else owes us something and everyone else is conspiring something against us, when we would feel responsibility for our existing homeland and our lands that we currently have, rather than pervertly erecting imaginary homelands and claming what we have only held episodically throughout 2000 years according to a cowardly act of running away from responsibility for the real homeland that we have for the last time in history.

 

At the end of the day, no one is immune from cowardice. Even Apostle Peter consecutively betrayed the Lord three times before the crucifixion. Then he felt ashamed and cried. One may only hope that our Diasporan leadership may feel ashamed, cry and repent without the homeland facing crucifixion. I, for one, am not optimistic.

 

This is how much time I can commit to this subject at this time.

[Twilight Bark]

About "forgiveness":

No need to forgive. No need to be obsessed about the crime and injustice either. But please feel free to do either (heck, both if you like). When a more compelling raw material for building an identity emerges, they'll come. Until then, whining about other people's obsessions is nothing fundamentally different from the age-old Armenian tradition of nagging "don't do this; don't do that", without providing a good alternative.

 

About "land versus people":

Only a hopeless nerd would put earth/land/tree/planet or various and sundry inanimate objects above people. There are also two cans of worms labeled "country versus people" and "grand ideas versus people", but I am not opening them right now.

 

There is a fundamental hypocrisy in claiming patriotism and "the wisdom about what's good for the nation", without living in Armenia. My current instinct is to discard most pontifications about the subject, and look for actual deeds. Speaking of hypocrisy. My current instincts tell me that "normal" nationhood appears to require a hefty dose of it in constructing a national mythology and for maintaining collective sanity and coherence. Only a small amount of honesty is required. Self-consistency is probably counter-productive. Submitted to the attention of self-declared super-patriots and nation-builders. But why am I bothering; the aspiring "leaders" already know and practice it. Sigh. Not my cup-o-tea. In the meantime, more power to anyone who wants to move to Hawaii and start an Armenian national revival and purge (er.. I mean purification) movement.

 

Finally, in the spirit of the above paragraph, I would advise anyone reading this to ignore what I wrote.

 

Cheers,

TB

[Boghos]

About "forgiveness":

No need to forgive. No need to be obsessed about the crime and injustice either. But please feel free to do either (heck, both if you like). When a more compelling raw material for building an identity emerges, they'll come. Until then, whining about other people's obsessions is nothing fundamentally different from the age-old Armenian tradition of nagging "don't do this; don't do that", without providing a good alternative.

 

About "land versus people":

Only a hopeless nerd would put earth/land/tree/planet or various and sundry inanimate objects above people. There are also two cans of worms labeled "country versus people" and "grand ideas versus people", but I am not opening them right now.

 

There is a fundamental hypocrisy in claiming patriotism and "the wisdom about what's good for the nation", without living in Armenia. My current instinct is to discard most pontifications about the subject, and look for actual deeds. Speaking of hypocrisy. My current instincts tell me that "normal" nationhood appears to require a hefty dose of it in constructing a national mythology and for maintaining collective sanity and coherence. Only a small amount of honesty is required. Self-consistency is probably counter-productive. Submitted to the attention of self-declared super-patriots and nation-builders. But why am I bothering; the aspiring "leaders" already know and practice it. Sigh. Not my cup-o-tea. In the meantime, more power to anyone who wants to move to Hawaii and start an Armenian national revival and purge (er.. I mean purification) movement.

 

Finally, in the spirit of the above paragraph, I would advise anyone reading this to ignore what I wrote.

 

Cheers,

TB

The essence of Armenian modern thought or is it traditional thought, TB ?

[THOTH]

MJ -

 

Again I see much in your words that I can agree with. However I see the issue of Genocide recognition as perhaps more then us getting an official victim lable. And specifically I feel that the issue goes beyond this is several dimensions - one being the dimension of the universiality of the crime of Genocide - and along with it hope for some true history (oxymoron I know...but at least a more accirate understanding...from all sides)...but also that the lesson of mans inhumanity is not lost - and that proper aborance for such deeds is known and the perpetrators (specific...not just Turks generically) are properly condemned. This to me is the justice element (in addition to just accuracy of the historicl record etc) - that I think goes (or can) a long way to restoring our psyche as a people - and it just should be.

 

The other issue is the legacy of our people in Anatolia - our history and our contributions (to humanity - to the landscape of Anatolia - to the Ottoman Empire and those that preceeded it - and yes, even to the culture and prosperity of the Turks of today). This is a recognition that I do crave for our people - even more so now that i have visited these lands and seen some of what remains of at least our physical legacy (and it it both very sad and very uplifting to see simultaniously...). I understand the stements that you and others make that our legacy - and/or our priorities should be the present - and should be the Armenia of now...and I agree - that this should be the pre-eminant concern for most Armenians - and that this is more important for our survival and our future (and thus eventually I guess - for our legacy). But this does not mean that some of us should not be concerned/dedicated and such to the other issues as well (Genocide (history, recognition or what have you)/cultural legacy in Anatolia and related etc) - as these things are important (or should be) to us as a people too - and at least some of us need to be concerned about these things as well.

 

Sure - too much emphasis (and often in all the wrong ways) is placed on the Genocide and "recognition" issues etc - I agree. But this does not mean that (again some of us) should not be concerned about this and work towards some real progress and solutions [whatever these may be...] etc (and all of us will always have some concern about this - for obvious reasons) and others of us have interest in more anthropologic and archeology type of issues...etc. - and others in other aspects of our history/current condition or whatever. There is no shame in this (that we are not doing the right things etc - we should do what we are best suited/positioned to do) - even agreeing with you that the general first priorities should be the now (as our people/nation are certainly in crises - and our oppurtunity is now...etc). But each of us has different ability/interest etc to bring to the table and we should each attempt to contribute were we can do best and where we have the oppurtunity.

 

I don't always agree with your positions and such - but I feel that you too are doing your part - and in fact I do agree with very much that you say - and much that some others here say as well (even if some seems contadictory...). Still - I know that Armenians are often much talk and little action (shame) ...but I can only hope that there are enough of us - and the right ones of us - to act (with the right vision, with sufficent resources) and do the right things...and of course I can only hope that Armenian leadership (in and out) can become sufficiently enlightened/concernd to act in a manner to place the good of our people above their petty interests...probably too much to really hope for...but sometimes one gets lucky and circumstance and such works to allow/enable such...but what we really need is for somehow leadership (governmental/organizations/private) to somehow emerge and energize us - and again - perhaps this is just a lucky roll that will occur or not. In the meantime we each much do what we can (even if its just complaining perhaps or protelisizing) - and hope that even through ideas we are able to influence...don't know really...

[DominO123]

Just one question.

 

Is forgivness possible, when the people to forgive does not ask for this forgivness? Is forgivness not about the other party taking this forgivness that you want to give him? What about when this other party don't want to take it?

Edited August 28, 2003 by Fadix

[MJ]

Thoth,

 

I think it would be hard for anyone to find a written or verbal passage originating from me which would claim that the Genocide “recognition” should not be pursued. As a matter of fact, you would find ample evidence on the opposite – even in this forum, and in particular, in a latest article of mine which has been somewhat discussed in this thread. You would also find my criticism of the previous administration of the Republic of Armenia for not pursuing the issue officially and my praise of the current administration for turning it [partially] into a state policy.

 

Speaking of justice... I think it has to be pursued by all means. The question is how. The question is whether some of the well-known methods do lead to any meaningful results other than addressing some questionable internal issues. Also, one has to be able to distinguish justice from revenge. Which one do we want to accomplish?

 

Moreover, in my latest article you would find explicit passages of mine advocating diversity of strategy in the Genocide “recognition” issue. You would also find explicit passages that list a number of issues associated with the Genocide – from psycho-sociological to political. Therefore, you should not try to make an [implicit] impression that I don’t see the issues beyond that of victimization.

 

I don’t give myself the right of judging the others. Whatever they are doing or have been doing, they will continue doing regardless of my position on the issues. However, when they cross into my space, they will get adequate response to the best of my abilities.

 

I also want some real progress and solution in the problem of Genocide. Again, the question is how you accomplish such task. As you would agree, I assume, loving parents don’t pass their pain to their children and grandchildren. They contain the pain within themselves. Those who pass the pain to the younger generation could be deemed as unfit for parenting. This is an allegoric statement, but I am sure you get the point.

 

There is no shame in pursuing Genocide “recognition.” But it is a shame to claim ownership of such agenda and put labels on other people who in no way have less emotions on the subject though have different perspectives on the resolution of the problem.

 

Regarding agreeing with my positions… I doubt that I make any impression that I am trying to have others agree with my positions. I don’t really care about it. I state what I state. What I state is not my fantasy. These things comprise the foundation of the Armenian statehood. It is up to you to join. In some ways, this manifests a respect from my side towards your choices. If you don’t join that is fine too. It doesn’t make you any worse person. But you are not any different to me than any other person that I may come across in a bar, in a park or a social event. Also, normally, I don’t believe that anyone changes anyone else. A capable and thinking person learns things for himself/herself. Most that such a person may lack is some perspective. Therefore, it is enough to articulate the perspective you want. IF the person doesn’t come to a better understanding of the issues on his/her own, it is not worth the effort to persuade him/her. He/she is incapable. Leave him/her alone. I have come to this conclusion as a result of much wasted precious energy and time.

 

And regarding the forgiveness. .. It is interesting that in a six page dense material this is what is inviting most of the “discussions.” This is only to indicate that most of the Armenians are not out there for justice but for revenge. Revenge is a cowardly and disgusting feeling – especially in the well known popular form of its manifestation. Forgiveness has nothing to do with the guilty part. Forgiveness is an inner feeling of the victim associated with his/her ability to claim himself/herself back and not being subjected continually to the same act of crime – this time in the psychological domain. It is not about how the criminal behaves. It is about what kind of person the victim is. Additionally, if Armenians are not able to forgive, Turks have no incentive to apologize (discounting the more than remote possibility of their drive for self-cleansing.) Also, one may think that by not forgiving, the “non-forgivers” are doing something useful for the “recognition” of the Genocide or hurting the Turks. This is a pathetic misperception. Let’s think of a real possibility, here. Let’s assume that Turks never accept the fact of the Genocide. Then Armenians will never be able to forgive? I doubt it very much. Let’s assume we can’t forgive. Who cares other than us? What is its importance?

 

In fact, most of the Armenians have forgiven the Turks. Especially forgiven were the Turks by the very victims of the Genocide. My grandparents had forgiven them. So had the countless other survivors that I have grown up amongst. Let the latest version of Domino tell me who is he (actually I know it for myself) not to forgive or what is the relevance of his “non-forgiveness.”

 

One of the sad expression of the legacy of the Genocide is the fact that a major layer of ethnic Armenians suffers from a severe form of lose of identity, or better, lack of identity. Many of them have been emigrants for generations – from one country to another. Eventually, many of them have settled in the US, for example. Even leaving in US for a couple of decades or so, they have not been able to connect with America, they don’t connect with Armenia. These are people with no homeland other than Turkey. All they can connect with is Turkey. That’s why their thoughts and dreams are associated with Turkey and any one sneezes in Turkey, these people get flu. The fact of the matter is that their umbilical chord is still connected to Turkey – their spiritual homeland. Turn a genuine Armenian music on for them (as an experiment) and see if they connect with it. Now turn Turkish music on… These people are not the Armenian Diaspora. They are the Turkish Diaspora of Armenian ethnicity. It would be useful to understand it.

 

I am not saying these things to condemn or to undermine someone. If I don’t have hatred or hostility towards the Turks, I sure can also feel sympathetic for these people. But the only thing I can tell them is unless they are able to forgive they are eternally condemned to self-distraction and a state pf permanent schizophrenia. This is not an emotional outburst from my side but a clinically established phenomenon.

 

One last thing… Look at this forum. Anytime one discusses Genocide, the crowd flows in as a heard. Try to discuss Armenia or issues associated with the future. There is so much going on in Armenia these days… How much interest can be detected in this forum about these issues of today and tomorrow? Now, imagine that there is a report of Human Rights violations in Turkey. Wouldn’t it become a topic of heated debates and wouldn’t members who have been away for month come to the surface? What does it tell you? Please explain. What it tells me is that these are people with no future. Would someone like me spend time and energy on them? Not really – not anymore. There is enough experience and evidence in and out of this forum to claim that these are dead people waiting only for a ritualized burial with all honors. Why not to give it to them?

 

However, there is a large group of disenfranchised young people who may be the hope for the future. One needs a divine power perhaps to be able to mobilize them.

 

This is all for today. Cannot afford to be better organized or more elaborate.

[DominO123]

Martin

 

I was not talking about me and my forgivness or non-forgivness. I just asked if it was possible to forgive, when the person in question does not ask for this forgivness, or do not accept/want this forgivness.

[MJ]

I have already answered that question.

[THOTH]

MJ - I understand (and for the most part agree). And I am liking your recent posts/thoughts (care or not..and new or not...just wanted to say so...)

 

So here is raising a glass to you from the far end of the bar...and perhaps I may even be willing to share with you some of my (fine) wine (and conversation/views of perhaps debatable merit/interest...LOL) if you are ever in the neighborhood - passing through - or what not...sure, why not...

[DominO123]

I have already answered that question.

Yes I know. But I fail to understand, what is really forgivness for me? And who I am to have the right to forgive or not forgive, in something that I was neither the victim nor the aggressor. And even if I would take that right, what would it change if I forgive or not? I mean, how do you measure forgivness in such a situation? Is it a feeling? is it measured by ones action? How am I supposed to know if I have forgiven? I mean, if I do not feel the desire of vengence, does that mean I have forgiven? Or those that take more than that? I know that I do not forgive the Turks for their denial, because this is present, and it is a direct feeling, and I feel I do not forgive them their denial. But I do not have any idea of if I have forgiven them or not the genocide, or if this question could even be asked, I have no idea of what kind of feeling should I have in order to say that I forgive or not.