THOTH Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Varduhi - you continue to demonstrate your juvenility/immaturity and ignorance. Its really not pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Yeah, Vardouhi, it is unbecoming of a pretty little Armenian like you. And how dare you call me Turk? I consider that an insult. quote:Originally posted by Varduhi:oops how can i say daddy to TURK.... heck no sorry i said that earlier.looooooooooooooooooooooooooool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by hyebruin:Originally posted by THOTH: Wow, Thoth I am surprised! I'm starting to think that YOU are the one who does not care! why do you 'care' more about how the turks look and feel and seem than armenians?? strange! maybe you have some turk blood in you! (and please do us all a favor and don't reply that ALL armenians have some kind of turkish blood in them and that we are all brothers and sisters). What I am saying is what the majority of armenians think---I'd say well over 90%---HONESTLY I think you must have been ostracized for whatever reason?? by the armenian community to become such a pro-turk...why do you put yourself in a position to defend them? You know what I really think? I think that you don't have a strong sense of what it is to be armenian (that's ok) but to go on and attack the view of others (especially when the majority feel that way) is just not right! ~~~and where does all this love and forgiveness come from? you don't even believe in God! seems like you make up your own rules and want people to follow them...ha! I have YET to hear you say one positive thing (or at least stop saying negative things) about armenians...it's that kind of attitude that hasn't gotten us(not sure if you're a part of 'us') justice...and if you so rudely call my valid concerns whining then you must think the 4/24 marches are the big whine fest of the year! You're 'dangerous' Thoth...you are neither fully supportive of armenians...nor turks! maybe YOU should try to figure out where you stand before judging others! Bruin, You will have to do better than to keep a score-board of some sort. Moreover, I don't think you have been reading and/or watching Thoth nearly enough to accuse him of being negative about Armenians. To continue, I would like to point out to your attention that Thoth is not different from Azat, Sip, MJ, and a whole lot of us. What makes them different from, say, yourself, is that they have had experiences (Sip's experiences with the Germans, for example) that have granted them another ounce of maturity rather than the being quick-to-hold-an-opinion attitude that self-servingly equates the characterization of crying "no fair" about the denial going on as whining to calling April 24 a "whine-fest." You might learn a thing or two from Raffi-I. quote:Originally posted by Varduhi:Wow all this time you thought I was complementing you? (Hahahaha) Well guess what I wasn’t complementing you at ALL. Every post I have posted mentioning your and stormy name is a big INSULT. (I guess it has something to do with you and stormy being Turks in HYE forumlooooooooooooooooooooooooooolYou're dismissed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Originally posted by Stormy: Wow, didn't know Thoth was so defenseless as to need YOU to stick up for him...I don't really care about your 'pseudoarmenian' ways...but this is a forum to share ideas and not promote YOUR ultraliberal views (or someone else's ultraconservative ideas) and push them onto others... some people in this forum have no respect for others' opinions...and if you, my dear, were not so ignorant (and others like you) you wouldn't keep accusing others of the same! think about that! Why can't people just post, read, and move on! I don't start addressing someone in my posts until they start, or if I can POLITELY ask them something! You need to learn some 'forum manners'...and lay off of Varduhi...if you think you're so mature, then IGNORE and MOVE ON! like I'm going to do now!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by hyebruin:Wow, didn't know Thoth was so defenseless as to need YOU to stick up for him...I don't really care about your 'pseudoarmenian' ways...but this is a forum to share ideas and not promote YOUR ultraliberal views (or someone else's ultraconservative ideas) and push them onto others... some people in this forum have no respect for others' opinions...I agree that some people (the ultraconservatives you mention) have no respect for others' opinions or even their private lives and life-styles. However, I've never seen an ultraliberal calling an ultraconservative's lifestyle 'CRAP' or trying to impose their ultraliberal views on others (and I don't see myself qualifying as ultraliberal). And this is where a bunch of you mess up. quote:and if you, my dear, were not so ignorantIgnorant? Based on what? Another empty, self-serving accusation? quote:(and others like you) you wouldn't keep accusing others of the same! think about that! Why can't people just post, read, and move on! I don't start addressing someone in my posts until they start, or if I can POLITELY ask them something! I remember being the one to quote "live and let live." quote:You need to learn some 'forum manners'...and lay off of Varduhi...if you think you're so mature, then IGNORE and MOVE ON! like I'm going to do now!!!How about you just tell immature people to lay off of acting like 12-year-olds and say something pertinent to the thread and address and answer the questions they are posed instead of characterizing people as this or that, so there is a real discussion, the basis of which is agreeing to disagree, not tolerating immense stupidities? What the hell do you think you are doing, telling me to be polite with Vardouhi when I asked her questions about morality and she couldn't answer them because they ran contrary to her "I say so and that's that" and just plain jump-shat me ever after? And just look at her conduct on this thread. She doesn't read what we write and makes up things about what we say so she can play her stupid games. Her behaviour qualifies her as a troll. Either she shows some shame and acts up or she remains a troll. For the life of me, put on a pair of glasses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Thank you for this paragraph, Raffi-I. quote:Originally posted by Raffi the Illuminator:As for Turks recognizing the Genocide there are many that do, but you won't hear about them if they are living in Turkey. If i'm not mistaken, it is a criminal offense in Turkey to publicly declare the Armenian Genocide as a historical fact, punishable by imprisonment. Many Turks that are involved in human rights organizations are demanding that Turkey clean up it's human rights record and that Turkey should stop it's campaign of denying the Genocide and it's oppression of free speech, particularly in the media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 THOTH you wrote, quote:you continue to demonstrate your juvenility/immaturity and ignorance. Its really not pretty.I don't want to be rude but you fail to see the beam in your own eye. In one of your previous messages you wrote "ad naseum" in order to sound educated. Well, the correct latin expression happens to be "ad nauseam". As for the site referenced by turcophile Stormy, it is a well-known turkish-run negationist site! So please stop the BS propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by axel:THOTH you wrote, quote:you continue to demonstrate your juvenility/immaturity and ignorance. Its really not pretty.I don't want to be rude but you fail to see the beam in your own eye. In one of your previous messages you wrote "ad naseum" in order to sound educated. Well, the correct latin expression happens to be "ad nauseam".Some people have a difficult time typing. Is that a federal offense?? quote:As for the site referenced by turcophile Stormy, it is a well-known turkish-run negationist site! So please stop the BS propaganda.Excuse me, just WHAT is the BS propaganda or the negationism in Attila Dorsay being up for showing it in Turkey? There is at least one person trying to take the huge risk of putting up an act like that, PERIOD! If you don't read sites for their brand, then you wouldn't even know of such a person trying to do such a thing. If this was indeed given so much importance, we could rely on Armenian sites to bring us this information, too. Type in +Ararat+Istanbul+film+festival in any search engine and you don't get too far - you have to go through a whole load of stuff to get the name of this juror, Attila Dorsay. And guess where it was and who cared one way or another. And just guess how many people cared to know. Zilch. Well, from now on you can try to see if Attila Dorsay has succeeded in his ventures or if it has been someone else, maybe even find out why it hasn't been him. Don't thank me. Thank the negationist site and the spirit of research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 excerpt: "De son côté, Atillâ Dorsay, le plus célèbre et le plus influent des critiques turcs, avoue dans le quotidien Sabah (Le Matin) son profond malaise face au "spectacle de la violence" délivré par une œuvre dont il a défendu dans un premier temps la présentation en Turquie. "Ararat montre les Turcs comme des oppresseurs assoiffés de sang", note-t-il. En contenant des scènes de massacre d'une "horreur inimaginable", le film sera mis au service de "l'hostilité anti-turque" à travers le monde." Translation: Attila Dorsay, the most famous and influent of the turkish critics admits in the daily Sabah his profound unease at the "show of violence" delivered by the work whose presentation he had at first defended. "Ararat shows turks as blood-thirsty oppressors", he notes. By its display of massacre scenes of "unconceivable horror", the film will be put to the service of "anti-turkish hostility" throughout the world. I wonder: should we falsify history in order to achieve reconciliation? [ February 21, 2003, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: axel ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 This suggestion that Ararat should be censored in order to be screened in Turkey is just a symptom of how unprepared Turks are to face the reality of their past and present. And it is obviously not just Ararat or Armenians. That also applied to Yilmaz Guney´s movies for example and numerous other instances. Revisionism and cowardice are obviously not a monopoly of Turks and Turkey. But that doesn´t make it less ridiculous. It is a direct reflection of insecurity, especially as to identity and standing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 21, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 ISSUE OF "ARARAT" FILM DEMONSTRATION IN TURKEY DISCUSSED BY COUNTRY SECURITY COUNCIL21.02.2003 /PanARMENIAN.Net/ The issue of demonstration of "Ararat" film in Turkey was discussed at the level of the country Security Council. As reported by "Arminfo" agency referring to Turkish media, the Council passed a negative decision on showing the film by Atom Egoyan Canadian director telling about the Armenian Genocide in Ottoman Turkey at the beginning of the 20-th century. The Security Council conclusion notes that the film presents continuity expressing hostility towards Turks and it may entail a much more negative response than that Alan Parker American director's "Midnight Express" had in its time. The Turkish party is especially indignant at the image of violence exercised by Turks towards Armenian women, as well as attacks of the Turkish military on the Armenian population. The final decision on screening "Ararat" in Turkey will be made by the control commission with participation of the country Security Council. Reproduction in full or in part is prohibited without reference to "PanARMENIAN.Net" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffi the Illuminator Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by Raffi the Illuminator:Many Turks that are involved in human rights organizations are demanding that Turkey clean up it's human rights record and that Turkey should stop it's campaign of denying the Genocide and it's oppression of free speech, particularly in the media.[/QB]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So why doesn't Turkey clean up its human rights record? You think monetary compensation is the only reason? I think recognition would resolve a lot of their national karma! and they need it!! I don't know why Turkey doesn't clean up it's record. I think much of it has to do with corruption and the fact that the military basically has the final say. There are several other reasons -- monetary compensation is probably just one of them. I think one of the main reasons is due to this ongoing war with the Kurds. I think the Turkish government is fearing some sort of a chain reaction (ie. if we compensate the Armenians with land, money etc. won't we have to do the same with the Kurds?) I think another important reason is because of the years & amount of money Turkey has devoted to denial, censorship & propaganda. I don't think the Turkish government will suddenly come clean (at least not very easily as we have seen) and admit it has paid lobbyists, journalists, scholars etc to propagate and lie to their own people because this, in effect will show that it has been severely untrustworthy to its own people. (remember that many people in present day Turkey do not enjoy access to the same freedoms that many of us have in N. America. In fact, ironically they are "educated" to believe Turkey is being subjected to the very same propaganda that the Turkish government is committed to.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Raffi-I / Boghos - I am in full agreement with your comments. Obviously Egoyan cannot give in to letting his work be censored. I fully understand why the Turks are concerned with such portrayals about themselves and are concerned with the type of counteractions that displaying such in Turkey will cause. I guess it is a problem that they must deal with. Until their society matures to the point and their people are honestly educated and exposed to their past their is only so much we (and they) can hope to achieve. They still have quite a ways to go IMO - and so much of their identity is based on the exaggerated nationalistic myth - the legacy of Ataturk (in part) and such - it is such a fragile thing... Axel - I apoligize for my spelling (and typing)deficiencies - never a high point for me....do you really equate perfect spelling with maturity? If so we have different definitions of such. Somehow I think nonsensical responses as "looooools" all over the place instead of serious discussion are more of an indication of a maturity problem - but I guess our definitions/expectations just differ... hyebruin - you are mistaken about me...but then again in different forums I have been called everything form an Armenian ultra-nationialist to a crypto Jew (and certainly much worse)...and I don't think that you are the first to accuse me of "having Turksih blood" or being a Turk or such (who knows really...but not to my knowledge...). I think these accusations more speak to the limitations of the accuser then to any accurate obsevations about me. How easy it must be to just claim that I must be a Turk or such then trying to address issues and think a bit. While I may not be so immersed into Diasporan Armenain culture as you or others on a daily basis I am certainly not ignorant of it or of how other Armenians think. Just because I might think differently then the norm does not at all make me wrong. The ability to step back and examine from a different perspective can be a useful one - do you not agree? Or is the "mainstream" always the correct and only perspective? And just because I may make some observations (to make a point) comparing what I may see as traits/characteristics of people etc does not mean that I prefer one group to another or that I love one and not the other. That I make some comments and not others - appearing to you I guess - to lean towards one camp (Turkish sympathys or whatever) is only to counterbalance what I see as some tremendous blind spots and biases on the part of many Armenians such as you. I am not any less Armenian nor any less sympathetic or appreciating of Armenian people, ways and causes etc as you or any other Armenian. Just the same we are not perfect and the Turks are not all demons or such. So yes - I have made an effort (to befriend and understand Turks) and I have been lucky enough to not be insulated and have had some exposure to Turks in my life - nearly all of my life. I see this as a good thing. How can ignorance and hatred be considered as better then openess and trying to understand? I feel that I am incredibly balanced - and I am certainly not hesitant to be critical of Turks, Turkish positions or whatever as the situation warrents and as I see it. You would be very surprised I think to see some of my posts in other forums where I encounter - lets call it - less friendly/open minded Turks...! And I certainly share the frustration/disgust at the official Turkish positions regarding the Genocide and towards Armenians in general and dispair at the attitudes held by most Turks. I just think that we need to be aware that Turks are not entirely monolithic in their views - there are progressive Turks who are fighting battles every day regarding human rights and other problems over there. We shouldn't just dismiss this out of hand and I don't think it reflects well on us to hold hateful and racist attitudes and beliefs in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by axel:excerpt: "De son côté, Atillâ Dorsay, le plus célèbre et le plus influent des critiques turcs, avoue dans le quotidien Sabah (Le Matin) son profond malaise face au "spectacle de la violence" délivré par une œuvre dont il a défendu dans un premier temps la présentation en Turquie. "Ararat montre les Turcs comme des oppresseurs assoiffés de sang", note-t-il. En contenant des scènes de massacre d'une "horreur inimaginable", le film sera mis au service de "l'hostilité anti-turque" à travers le monde." Translation: Attila Dorsay, the most famous and influent of the turkish critics admits in the daily Sabah his profound unease at the "show of violence" delivered by the work whose presentation he had at first defended. "Ararat shows turks as blood-thirsty oppressors", he notes. By its display of massacre scenes of "unconceivable horror", the film will be put to the service of "anti-turkish hostility" throughout the world. I wonder: should we falsify history in order to achieve reconciliation?I don't find it something to be occupied with. He may be expressing his own thoughts or he may not, trying to be up to those who will show resentment for showing the film at all. At any rate, someone wants to show it, and even if his point of view about the Armenian Genocide is diametrically opposite to the truth, he is one person who has tried to bring it to the masses. Edit the "violent scenes" from the film as they may, they cannot take out the central theme. For that, they would have to edit the whole film out! Remember the name Dorsay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Stormy, the sentence "une œuvre dont il a défendu dans un premier temps la présentation en Turquie." implies he is no longer for Ararat being shown to turkish audiences (my translation may have been incorrect). What's the point of bringing to the masses "a point of view about the Armenian Genocide that is diametrically opposite to the truth"? THOTH, I wasn't speaking of immaturity but of ignorance. Your charge against Varduhi was a bit rude and your supporting a tete-de-turc.com article together with Stormy was quite displaced in my view. [ February 21, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: axel ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by axel:Stormy, the sentence "une œuvre dont il a défendu dans un premier temps la présentation en Turquie." implies he is no longer for Ararat being shown to turkish audiences (my translation may have been incorrect). What's the point of bringing to the masses "a point of view about the Armenian Genocide that is diametrically opposite to the truth"?He is not bringing to the masses his own view, he was supposed to bring that movie whether he agrees with it or not. It is also important to find out whether he had said he would bring it to the Istanbul Film Festival before it premiered or after.Good progress we have covered over the history of Ararat's being brought to the Turkish public - for those who would be interested - don't you think? Now let us see what Cebahatin Cetin does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 My mistake, I wrote: What's the point of bringing to the masses "a point of view about the Armenian Genocide that is diametrically opposite to the truth"? which doesn't follow from what you said. I didn't read your post carefully enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by axel:Stormy, the sentence "une œuvre dont il a défendu dans un premier temps la présentation en Turquie." implies he is no longer for Ararat being shown to turkish audiences (my translation may have been incorrect). What's the point of bringing to the masses "a point of view about the Armenian Genocide that is diametrically opposite to the truth"? THOTH, I wasn't speaking of immaturity but of ignorance. Your charge against Varduhi was a bit rude and your supporting a tete-de-turc.com article together with Stormy was quite displaced in my view.LOL - well I don't read French BTW (seems I was asking for a translator) - and I guess I thanks Stormy for bringing info to us regarding the issue of showing Ararat in Turkey. Did I do something wrong? LOL As for Varduhi - please - I really don't think she can be taken very seriously - at least she has not proven such to me. Was I rude to her? What do you call how she was responding previously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by axel:THOTH, I wasn't speaking of immaturity but of ignorance. Your charge against Varduhi was a bit rude and your supporting a tete-de-turc.com article together with Stormy was quite displaced in my view.Birds of a feather flock together. Haven't the slightest clue why people stick up for trolls. Don't anybody dare tell me Vardouhi acts the way she does because I put the dunce cap on her. She showed she was incapable of DISCUSSING when I asked her some basic questions to elaborate on. That is no excuse for screwing up our screens with long looooooool's. And Thoth didn't support the article but thank me for identifying Attila Dorsay and he asked for a translation. How you managed to confuse the two also escapes me. He would thank me even if it had been in English. To understand psychosis, you do a thorough research, not approach with a narrow point of view yourself. Approaching with a broad view doesn't mean taking negationist material seriously. It means going into depth. All holocaust researchers use revisionist material for research purposes, too. Any other questions? "What are you doing Saturday night?" doesn't count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varduhi Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 HYEBRUIN THANKS. quote:What the hell do you think you are doing, telling me to be polite with Vardouhi stormy First of all come down TURK. And about me NOT reading your posts before replaying well its true, because I don’t want to waste my time reading your and thoths stupid, useless, none since, selfish, discriminative looooooooooooooong (like there is no tomorrow) posts against US (ARMENIANS) quote: What do you call how she was responding previously? I call that a reality and the truth. (TURKI KTOR) I know that you are in-denial right now (that’s ok) because someday you will be brave enough to stand up for your true identity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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