Tufa Stone

[MosJan]

edward - are you building it in Palm Springs??? - i did not know we hed so many Armenian in Palm Springs.

us for the TUF ther is a place in Hollywood, the name is Holywood Marbul and granit, i remember years a go somone was tealing me that this place has Tuf or somthing like it. find this place it might help you...

 

Movses

[edward demian]

Does anyone have a contact in Armenia for Tufa Stone?

We are building a reproduction of the 7th Century, St Hripsime Church.

[bellthecat]

Just don't f*ing get it from the Ani quarry

Is the thing a life size reproduction?

[MJ]

Edward,

 

Isn't there one person in his healthy mind in your community to tell you that what you are contemplating is extremely stupid?

 

God save Armenia!

[khodja]

MJ,

 

Is the only tufa quarry in Armenia just across the international border adjacent to Ani? Is there no tufa available from any other quarry in Armenia or elsewhere?

[MJ]

No, there is elsewhere. But what does it matter?

[khodja]

MJ, If tufa can be found elsewhere, then why do you consider the plans of the Palm Springs Armenian community to be foolish and not patriotic? It will bring some work and money to Armenia from comparatively wealthy Armenian-Americans and increase the pride of the Palm Springs Armenian community.

[MJ]

I think the Palm String Armenian Community should go to hell with its pathological and superficial pride. If they wanted to be useful to Armenia, there were hundreds of other ways to do it. But all they want is to prove something to themselves, at the expense of appearing just perennial idiots.

 

And if their drive had anything to do with Jesus Christ, they would’ve been happy with a conference room in a mediocre hotel for their worships.

 

I hope that one day this generation of superficial Armenians will just vanish from the face of earth with no trace, taking along their unbearable legacy, which makes one feel ashamed for being Armenian.

[khodja]

MJ,

 

Have we switched roles? I am confused. When I was ranting about the superficiality of the American Armenian community you accused me of being a Turk. Years of hurt drove me out of the community, so I understand your feelings. But now I TOTALLY do not understand where you are coming from.

[MJ]

First, you are lying. I have not accused you in being a Turk, especially becasue of your renting. Second, I don't think you have ever followed what I have said. Third, I have never had anything to do with the Armenian Community, so that to be "hurt" by it.

[khodja]

MJ,

 

You have called me "Mustafa." The inplication is that I am a Turk.

[MJ]

Who? Me? Get out of here.... How could I call Khodja Mustafa?

[MosJan]

haw big is Palm String Armenian Community or haw many Armenians, and haw much is it going to cost this reproduction of the 7th Century, St Hripsime Church?? -

MOvses

[Boghos]

Please, move this thread to "humour".

[MosJan]

ok i will.

 

let me just reply to him.

[edward demian]

Yes we are crazy. We are just 30 Armenians, and we have been saving money since 1920. We now have over a million dollars and five acres and we will build a monument to our culture and religion. Every nail driven into that church is a nail driven into the collective coffin of our enemies. Yes it is a faitheful reproduction of St Hripsime. The Architect Charlie Martin travelled to Armenia and chose that church. Of course we have tufa even in California. And a better quality too. However, the truer we stay to Armenian materials, the easier it is to gather funds.

And if I were to get the stone from Ani, I would not use a sledgehammer to swat a fly.

By the way guys, I allready found a source from Armenia at $1.50 per square foot of 2in. thick pannels. The local price here is $20.00 I will try the Hollywood source, but most of those guys are really mercenary and their stone is typically slabbed 3/4in. thin. They are called suppliers of flat stone as opposed to "Dimentional Stone"

As to all of you that are angry, I don't understand your anger. What I am doing is Art. If I was painting would you have the same reaction?

Now days, the ancient art of Masonry is dying. Very few projects use stone anymore. I am pleased with the project. If we would have wanted a Mexican style church with an Armenian cross on it, we would have bought one for ten cents on the dollar.

Spane, Spane, Turki achca hane.

[khodja]

MosJan,

 

You are being very unfair to Demian. Most Armenian churches built in America have saved for years. I, for one, have sent money to Armenia through the all Armenian Fund and individual donations. My instincts tell me that most of this $$$never goes to those who need it most. If the Palm Springs Armenian community has saved this money it is their right to do with it what they see fit. Millions go to Armenia every year both from philanthropic organizations and the US government. Children dying in Armenia and Artsakh because the Palm Springs Armenians are saving for a church? Please, spare us.

[MosJan]

it's nice that you and the rest of the Armenians like to have your own church in your community, sins 1920is you have been saving up money, over a million dollars. it is a good idea to have your own church.

lets talk about this,

Your community has been holding on to $$$ at times when Armenia or The Armenians needed the money most, so many projects have been unassisted, dawn sins no one was supporting it, so many projects have turn heads to Turks for financing and have become PRO-Turkish, when you have had over a million $$$ in your hands, so many kids have starved to death in Armenia and Artsax when you had $$$ to help them, So many Armenian Churches in Armenia, Artsax and Historical Armenian need work, ...... ehhh

This is the reason most of us get angry on this topic.

 

I'm not telling you to gave up your money, just spend it bit more wisely. it's your money you do what you like with it.

you can get your self a new church made by today's standards that will cost you much chipper than building one using TUF, at first it will cost you way to much to import the stones. just don't tell me your getting the stones from Armenia to help the economy, sins you will spend more money on shipping than the stones are sold in Armenia.

 

it's not only building the church, you need to pay the expenses, like property taxes an so on, so more and more $$$ will bee spend, 30 members supporting a church, which will soon or lather become the property of some Armenian political party. that's if there not supporting your idea and making you do this now.

than you get A priest, oh this is the fun part, he will charge you, me and every one anytime you go to him for $500.00 for wedding, $350.00 for baptism, ...

Just build something normal, again you can add Armenian Accent to it.

 

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: MosJan ]

[bellthecat]

Er.. I think you should sack the architect - there are NO NAILS in the St. Hripsime church!



Could you not find someone with the guts to do something original, or be a bit more imaginative in his choice, or have some proper connection with the architecture? What does he know about Armenian architecture? What else has he seen except St. Hripsime? Did he chose it because it is the nearest church to the airport! It is not exactly the most suitable design for a small congregation.

It will probably be as faithful as if Disneyland made it. Honestly, the whole project does sound quite ghastly - the sort of thing that a British TV company might later film to make fun of the crazy Yanks.

Though it IS possible to build proper reproductions. I have seen film of a beautiful Serbian church that is an exact copy of a medieval one that existed in Kossovo (and was demolished after the American invasion). So maybe a copy of an Armenian church in Turkey would have been more appropriate, and valuable.



Nor is yours, really. Stone cladding is not masonry work.



Why not produce something original that is still Armenian. But I suspect that is something that modern society, of whatever ethnic group, now cannot produce. (I could probably do it - but ya didn't ask me! And mine would be art - not a kitchy pastiche).

[edward demian]

We have had the same diverse reaction from our own members as well. Some of us are practicalists and some of us are purists.

We want to build something that would reawaken the Armenianess of the community. Allready this area of Southern California is all Spanish. Our chilldren are being absorbed in the Mexican community. Thete are few Native English speakers. If this last generation is lost to our culture, we will be here no more. Armenia has no future without the Diaspora. If we would have sent the money during the Communist times, it would have been sequestered by the Communists.

Now we do send money to Armenia. However, If you want to talk about a waste. Talk about the Gulbenkian Millions left to charity. The Armenians get very little of it. We need churches,schools, cultural centers, cemetaries, Printing houses, libraries and Theters. Since Armenia does not really want the Diasporan Armenians, we need to think of our own survival.

[MJ]

???

Survival for what purpose?

[Harut]

exactly. why?

this is another weird side of Armenians.(or they pretend to have that side)

they spit on their homeland, leave it, then prase Armenia , do whatever it takes to show that they are Armenians, but never think about returning back and taking some serious actions.

[Boghos]

It is not by building an ersatz Ste. Hripsime that you will survive. Not a cemetery, library, printing house or whatever. You will not survive. The diaspora will die, at different speeds to be sure, but it will die. There are a few Armenian churches scattered all over the world where there are no Armenians anymore: Myanmar, Singapore for example. There is a nice Hay Doon in Santiago, Chile, it is almost abandoned. Where are the Armenians from Poland and Hungary ? In museums or written up in books, or at the most they are some kind of peculiar subject for a magazine.

Of course there are some that consider themselves Armenians, and even fierce nationalists, that cannot accept that. But they are just fooling themselves. I am a second generation Armenian, speak the language, have been to Armenia, own numerous books on it, etc. In two or three generations this will be transformed into almost nothing, or merely a curiousity.

What´s the point in building something that everybody will attend essentially only the inauguration party. We have more than enough white elephants.

You don´t need to send the money to Armenia or Karabagh. But for example an endowment to support graduate studies for Armenians from Armenia at a US university will be much more useful. Actually I can think of tens of better projects. We don´t need more churches, we need more faithful people.

[MJ]

Exactly! They consider themselves to be Armenians. But that belonging is too superficial. As to the nationalism, they pretend to be nationalists. They are just small, petty people, with an enormous luggage of hate and nothing else. These superficial nationalists have no homeland. They are just fictitious enemy haters and animosity perpetuators.

[wh00t]

Interestingly, but kind of off-topic, my Diocese calendar indicates that the St. John the Baptist Armenian Church in Burma (Myanmar) is still active.