Lets start...

[Guest Fadi]

... Guy's I found something that explain better what I was trying to tell, while I do not agree entirly with what is exposed(since I believe that the second law is respected in the majority of times, while the author view it as else), the "life" part of it, and the conception of physical and biological orders, is there.

 

http://complexsystems.org/publications/pdf.../thermoecon.pdf

 

I need you guys read it, and tell me what you think of.

[Sip]

Is this stuff going to be on the midterm? How about on the final? Can I get an extension on the homework? My dog is sick and I have to take it to the Vet ... it is snowing and I have to walk up-hill in the cold ... both directions on the way there and back.

[Guest Fadi]

midterm ? Is there any midterm exam left ?

 

BTW, you remember me an excuse I found for not returning a work, when I was in college , I told the teacher that all the week I was carring for my dog because it had a heart worm and should be operated etc... my friend ignoring that I was building up an excuse on front of my teacher asked: "You have a dog, I never saw it"

 

[ November 15, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[sen_Vahan]

Domino,

 

Do you ask the same question as Schrodinger did, 'what is the life'?

As i understand you think the ordering/disordering to be of great importance in nature, right? In my opinion, there are two approaches here, one being purely scientific - physical, the other one being more philosophical(no, no, I don't mean that philosophy is not a science)."What is the life?" is too ambiguous for the first approach actually because one needs to be more quantitative rather than qualitative.But the problem is that not a single theory can absolutely explain the universe and processes going on there.So, my guess is that the philosophical approach is more productive in this case.And I can feel free in some sense to build models. OK, the entropy of the isolated system is increasing, so, I want to assume that the universe is not an isolated system.Then where is the leak? Who knows... That's a good question but if the entropic death of the universe is true then lets wait and see It is now popular to consider life being a result of ordering (very generally). Just because the living organisms (even simplier - biological molecules) are highly ordered does not mean that they appeared as a result of the ordering in nature. Life might be a result of some great fluctuation, and maybe that's why it's so rare And life may disappear again because of some fluctuation but not disordering. The evolution theory is beautiful but you can this way and I can think that way and both will be right. Philosophy si even more beautiful

[Guest Fadi]

This is exactlly the subject of this paper above. But before covering what you wrote, I must specify something, philosophy is not science, the word "philos" means friend, and "sophos" means wise, in term the word philosophy means "friend of wiseness" etc... there is a fundemental difference between science and philosophy, science bases on objectivism, while philosophy is based on subjectivism, thats the only difference between rational philosophy(what I preach) and science, but its a fundemental difference. The only debtable objectivism in science is ironically the language of science, mathematic.

 

While science try to explain our physical world, philosophy explains our metaphysical world, and philosophy is appart from religion and science, while rational philosophy apply the analytic methodology near identical to the methodology applied in science, religion is based on closed works that are dogmatics... philosophy moves in time, and science as well.

 

I did this little distinction between science and philosophy because its an important distinction.

 

Now about entropy, I agree that in a closed system "order" can never increase based on the second law of thermodynamic, the more it can do is to be more stable, this if you do not give values to things. And like I said life does not respect the laws of thermodynamic, it resist and opposes to this law, and the link I provided, even if I may disagree with the author in many espects, I totally agree with him about life organization, biological order, that from the author would even bring in a sense to the decrease of entropy, which I disagree with, because I think entropy in the universe is stable, because of a renewell system, even if the universe is a closed system, I made a mistake not pointing what I though just after Sip made that point, I should have. So by being stable, I consider life as a plus, and I consider it as the suprem order the most complex universe masterpiece, a kind of organization of its fundamental laws.

 

I am short of time, I will developpe this more later.