The most complex part of matter...

[Guest Fadi]

... Here, lets start a new discussion, lets put something in the hands of Sip to eat.

 

About order,

 

we know that mollecules are more complex and ordered than the atoms from which they are formed of, we know that cells are more complex thant the mollecules they are formed of, we know that an organism that is multicells, is even more complex, and animals are even more complex and ordonated...

 

This bring to the conclusion, that the most complex and ordonnated thing, that nature and its law have "created" that we know of, is life.

 

Think about this, in the Universe, there are stars, quasars, black holes, etc... but what is fanatistic about them could be explained by simple union of matter and then the consequences, as fantastic and complex they may be, there is nothing more ordonated and complex than life. And even more, humans are even more complex, because we can imitate nature and complexify things even more, we have an ordonated brain that no other animal pocess.

 

So in somme, humans are the most complex and ordonated thing that we know of, that exist in the entire Universe.

 

Does someone not find this misterious that the most complex thing in the Universe is life ? It would be understandble, that with everything that nature creat, with its laws, life would be one of those complex things, but we should have other complex things more complex than life, no, thats not the cases, because after studying the Universe for years, we can not come to something more complex and ordonated than life. Statistically speaking that means something.

 

What does it mean ?

 

Well, imagine that you are building a house, you start with wood, metals, paints, wires etc... etc... etc... while you advence in your construction, you realise that what you made of those things(wood, metal etc...) is more complex than those things you used, finaly you finish the house, that become the most complex and ordonated thing, between everything you use it to build it... can you say that this complexity and order was the goal of your work ? Can you say that the most complex and ordonated thing was the goal of all those things used by you ?

 

Statistically, why would that not apply to the Universe, all those laws, all those ellements, everything is made of a way, that the most complex thing that we can concieve of is life. Its like the goal of the Universe, the goal of its laws, is to creat life, to give conscience in order that parts of its matters give a product that realise their own existance.

 

We are part of the Universe, us human, we come from this condensed beem of energy that brought the big bang, and as a complex organisation of matter, we take conscience of our presence... what we are other then, a part of the Universe that are conscient of the space we takes in this vast Universe ?

 

So in conclusion, is it not so, for the Universe, to complexify more and more, and to build life, because the Universe is there to be contemplated, and that only the possibility that conscience may exist, and that this conscience is the most complex thing that exist, and that this conscience is made possible by the existance of life ?

 

[ November 12, 2002, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Sip]

First of all, nice try, trying to distract me with ideas of food right in the beginning. Unfortunately, you were successful! So for now, I am going to think about this a bit since it's a pretty cool question. However, I have a couple of things to throw out there:

 

1) Energy in an "isolated system" is constant.

2) The entropy of an "isolated system" cannot decrease.

3) Universe is an isolated system.

 

The first 2 are laws of thermodynamics. The third one is my guess.

 

I would agree that "live" beings, reduce their entropy (in their local system) and can thus be considered more "ordered".

 

Whether life is the most ordered thing in the universe, I have NO idea. Domino, do you know something about the whole Universe we don't?

 

But anyway, this is just my initial feeling about the subject and I'll try to come back to this.

[Guest Fadi]

I agree with your 3 points, and 3 is not only your guess, but it is considered as near a fact.

 

But thise does not contradict what I said, to the contrary.

 

As for life, its the most complex and ordered thing we know of. If there is something more complex and ordered, then maybe you know something, that we don't know of ?

 

[ November 12, 2002, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Guest Fadi]

Ouich, I forgot, there is something more ordered and complex than human, its a goup of human living in harmony and parcimonia... like cells building our organs, humans working like cells, to produce humanity...

 

OK, a little correction then, the most complex thing we know of that nature build is not human, but humanity.

[Sip]

Why do you think everyone is out to contradict you all the time?

[Twilight Bark]

You know where this is going, don't you Domino? The most complex thing we know of is the universe itself. Too obvious, I know.

 

And speaking of the universe. It is entirely plausible that there exists an infinite number of universes, with all the possible values for those fundamental constants that do not fall out of fundamental equations, even if we assume that the governing laws are the same in all universes (and they need not be, I suppose). Then we are in this universe, simply because the particular values for the fundamental constant(s) happen to be conducive for the eventual development of life. In that case, there is nothing purposeful about the universe.

 

Sigh... Humbug.

 

 

TB

[Twilight Bark]

The universe is getting less and less orderly according to the 2nd law. Among other things, the highly "ordered" form of energy, also known as "matter", is turning into photons and and such, emitted into space. This destruction of order is occasionally used to create local increases in order, much like using electricity to create a colder region of space at the expense of increasing overall entropy of the universe (e.g. your fridge). For every planet that supports mechanisms for this phenomenon (i.e. life), there are surely countless other planets that simply absorb high energy (i.e. more "ordered") photons and emit back "low-quality" infrared photons throughout their existence. In fact, "life" appears to be an exceedingly rare phenomenon. It's just that the universe has enough stars and planets, and sufficient variability of conditions (in addition to physical laws that permit them), such that there is at least one planet that the freak accident of life had an opportunity to occur. I see no obvious "purpose" in the universe. If there is purpose, we created it. I "believe" in humans. Meaning and sense can only exist in the fictional world created by the self-aware "intelligent" creatures, accidents though they may be. They are the accidents that create profundity. Thus, I completely reject the infantile philosophy of "who cares about those rotten humans, the important thing is the planet". The planet (or the universe) is meaningless without self-aware, intelligent beings. It might just as well not exist.

This is also known as the "hidden variable" view of "fundamental" randomness (championed by Dirac) such as the one coming from the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. To the best of my knowledge, we have not yet found even a hint that those "hidden variables" exist (i.e. unknowable by lowly humans but existent nevertheless). Therefore, your belief is currently not supported by what we know about how the universe works. Perhaps you will change that.

 

As Azat's cartoon implies, the randomness may be coming from interference with other universes (that would also explain the violation of the conservation laws when quantum mechanical uncertainty is operative as a temporary exchange of energy or matter between universes).

 

Actually, I was starting to question what this has to do with Armenians. But there is a link in my mind. In the back of my mind. Waaay back in mind. In the Department of Meaning.

 

I'll cut it short here. Good luck with your research.

 

TB

 

P.S. My post above has some passing references to what was discussed in another thread /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...ic;f=1;t=000526

 

[ November 12, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[Guest Fadi]

BTW, before some take me as a fool, I should say that that thing being my theses was a joke, in case some may believe I have escaped from a psychiatrical institution.

[Guest Fadi]

TB,

 

About Hidden variable, in mathematic, it exists, all the series , like those of fourier are based on that, you have an adding that goes to the infinit, each parts of this sommation, could be considered as variables, we may decide to cut pieces, untill we have a reasonably accurate numbers.

 

The analogy could be made with super computers used for meteorology, they uses a program based on the adding of different variables, and the super computer calculate every variables based on very complex formula's. And what makes those computers more accurate is the capability to take in account as much variable as it can handle. Now, if we could enter every variables of the Universe in a very big, computer that could handle it, chaos would not exist.

 

Ah as for Heisenberg uncertaintly principle, its a compleat different story, is about finding the position of a particule, byt taking in account, 2 parametres, more you take in account one, and less you can take in account the other, this is true for the referential system, based on speed and simple coordonate, not in a system where you control every parametres.

[Twilight Bark]

No no no. The "hidden variable" I was talking about has nothing to do with fourier series and the like. It is about the speculation by Dirac regarding the nature of the randomness dictated by quantum theory.

 

Clearly that was what you had in mind. However, it takes a "deterministic" view of te universe, which is at odds with quantum theory. In other words, you can obtain apparent randomness and chaos in a classical, deterministic system, which still allows for a super-intelligent-omnipowerful-control-freak sort of creature to actually know and predict the trajectory of the system. However, fundamentally, there is also quantum uncertainy under it all, making it impossible for even the super creature to predict the future of the system. Unless, of course, the quantum randomness was not random at all, and it appeared so to the lowly humans who could not look into (or control) the values of those hidden variables.

Anyway, I think we are beginning to put the poets among us into a deep sleep.

TB

[Guest Fadi]

Ah, I forgot, about orders, what you say is not entirely true, just after the big bang, a very big amount of energy was injected, and that time there was no order, order came up slowly, while other elements started to form, then molecules etc...

 

And I do not believe life being an accident at all. How do you explain that a connection of matter could give birth to conscience(another definition, as those commonly believed) ? In order that that happens, laws should permit it, and as for conscience, I am not sure that only "life" has conscience. What if a rock has conscience ? What brings us to believe that conscience is only proper to life ? Example, here, now, you know you exist, how can you know that a hour before, you knew you existed, your memory has recorded past events, but now you can not feel your past existence other then using your memory. How can you know that you are the same TB, as the one that a hour before knew he existed ? I mean, what if every second, you are another person, but still keep your same memory(brain), and that you think you are the same person, because you remember of having done everything you have done in the past ? You see, I do not think that conscience is a very magical thing, we have no prove that conscience is specific to only life. When you sleep, you still know you exist, the difference is that your brain don’t record that at that time you knew you existed, because you did nothing in order for your brain to record, this is why you can not remember your sleep. Conscience, as we describe(and not what it really is), is rather, knowing we existed, and that probably we will exist, rather than knowing we exist, those are particular to animals, this is what the human conscience is, because we have no evidence that in present time we knowing we exist is particular to life. An electron, may know it exist, but this electron may not record it existed and that it will probably exist, it only “subit”

 

So, what our brain does, is to record a part of the Universe, this part is us, and our brain being a part of that Universe, the part of the Universe that we are feel it existed, record it, and answer back.

 

This is why, I say that life did not come by error, what was missing for that matter, was to record its existence, and funny as it can be, the most complex thing nature has created do just that.

 

As for Dirac, sorry I do not like his theory, nor his “relativistic” quantum mechanic, Dirac, uncertainty, idea comes from the contradiction that there is between relativity and Quantum mechanic, he complete this, by this uncertainty that may explain it, as an equation. But I know, you will tell me that Diracs equation has been verified, but not really, since it is used for a “located” particle, and it was meant for this, and this is concluded by the “fonction Delta” of Dirac. While what I am saying is not about a localisation, and the completion of Quantum mechanic, and trying to link it with relativity, by trying to glue hypotheses to explain the contradiction, but a total reinvention of laws of matter. And what I am saying works, how ? While Quantum mechanic is based on statistics, and incertitude, the “undulation” theory is based on the completion of parameters, that could add every time to make it more complex, its like “Linux” an open source, and you just add the parameters. You start from the start, and ignore everything of the relativity, and Quantum mechanic, while when they have been conceptualised, they were made in a ay that they were not compatible, and I do not believe in “impossible” in physic, everything should be explained, because I believe in orders, and if we can not explain it, it is not because there is no explanation, or that there is “chaos” etc… but rather, there is parameters that are missing. Now, using this logic, we can explain many things, for example, how come electrons are localised only on the orbitals, and they can go from orbital to others, when they are existed etc… or loses or win energy, Quantum mechanic explain that, and it is one of its primary reason of existence. But does Quantum mechanic explain how come between those orbitals there is no electrons that could be localised, when we know that an electron that changes orbital must enter the area, where not a single electron is localised ? I mean, those electrons can be detected in only those orbitals, and not between them, even if we know that electrons passes from that region, even if we can not detect them… ? Quantum mechanic will explain that by using the incertitude theory, and other stuff, and say why the relativity theory could not be applied etc… it will not give that answer, it will say that it can not… most of Quantum mechanic is based on why we can not know, rather than, our ignorance of parameters. Quantum mechanic suppose everything is only statistic, localisation could not be established, because on the uncertainly, and then Dirac come with his equation, that works in many ways, but still do not repair those problems. On the other way, there is always the other explanation, to try to justify this or that by inventing new dimension, there has been many attempts, it did not worked, because we know that if there was more Space dimension, Universe will react in another way, it does not.

 

This is what I mean, by the Fourier series, it was just an example, for example, with a derivable series of additions we can represent a “sinus” function a “cosines” function etc… more you add, more you add, and more you come to a more precise number. Every parameters in this cases of series, that we are talking about is the Universe.

 

I know, what I have written is like a composition of things that don’t stick together, but they are, in order to prove this, I have to write pages and pages… now you know of what I think about in my bed.

 

[ November 12, 2002, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Twilight Bark]

To the contrary. Even though it does not conform to our usual sense of "order", the universe right after the big bang was very "ordered" simply by virtue of being confined to an infinitesimally small space. The kind of order you are talking about are small islands of increased order (of a different sort) in a background of increasing disorder. Incidentally, almost all of the heavier elements necessary for life are produced as a result of Supernova explosions; not exactly "order producing" events. The atoms in our bodies started their existence as dust and gas blown away from a supernova. It seems that the "hot gas" left an imprint that shows itself in some of the posters on the internet (such as those that pollute cilica.com ).

 

Lego pieces and a lot of monkeys playing with them.

 

But I explained that in my first post in this thread, didn't I? It is quite plausible that this universe is one of an infinite number of possible (and existing in parallel) universes, and happens to have the right conditions for the evolution of life.

 

And I thought you dreamed about veelas in your bed.

 

TB

[sen_Vahan]

1) Energy in an "isolated system" is constant.

2) The entropy of an "isolated system" cannot decrease.

3) Universe is an isolated system.

 

The first 2 are laws of thermodynamics. The third one is my guess. "

 

One may as well say the universe is not an isolated system then there will be no entropy death of the universe,etc.

 

"I would agree that "live" beings, reduce their entropy (in their local system) and can thus be considered more "ordered"."

 

they do but armenians don't

 

Domino, did you think about the universe being finite or infinite in time and space?

[Guest Fadi]

Yes ! TB, exactly... but there is a "BUT"

 

I said the most complex in that Universe, the Universe here is excluded, of course the universe is the most complex and ordered o all, because it contains any order it creates, but the point here, is about what the laws of the Universe have created as the most complex, what they have created is life, that’s the most complex thing that we know of.

 

As for many other Universe, they don't have to respect the same Laws as this Universe, our Universe, respect those laws, and those laws have permitted to create life, maybe in another Universe, there is another kind of order, with another kind of complex thing made possible by other laws.

 

I do not believe in chaos, I believe only of lack of order and order... for me the conception of lack of order is not the opposite of order. By analogy, 0 is not the opposite of 5.

 

And I can prove this.

 

Imagine that you are the Universe, and everything in this universe is you, there can not be chaos for you, because if for chances a part of you a meteorite strikes another part of you, lets say the Earth, for people living in Earth, that’s an accident, and by chance it hits Earth, because people on Earth ignores every parameters, but for the Universe, its not by chance, its not chaos, because if you were all the Universe, you would know every parameters, if you beat your right hand with your left hand, you know that your left hand beat it right here and before even your left hand beating your right hand, you know that you will beat it... now you control both parameters, your right and left hands... if your right hands would be independent from you, it will ignore the other parameter, and for him this beating will arrive has a "chance" the same goes with lotteries, if you were all those balls, with every numbers, and everything that goes with it, it will not be a matter of chance for you, because you will know all the parameters... so "chaos" could only be define by ones ignorance of parameters.

 

Now, I guess, you are questioning, what this has to do with what you posted... here I am coming, its about Universes, other Universes, in our Universe, atoms are build in a way that protons are positive and electrons negative, but physicists were able to isolate positive electrons, called "positrons" and negative protons, that’s called anti-particles... if you take a anti-hydrogen, that is made of a negative proton and positive electron, and you expose it to normal hydrogen, both neutralise and a very big amount of energy is produced, more energy than a nuclear reaction. Now in math, when you take opposite numbers, for example 5 and -5 and you add them, you come up with “0” then how come in physic there is no such neutralisation, and instead we have a very big amount of energy ? Is that the energy that was on the origin of the Universe ? The energy that created matter ? By the explosion ? Why this energy has created only matters and not anti-matters ? Because in our Universe, more then 99,99999… % is constituted of matters and not anti-matters… Would that mean, that it is because there is two parallel Universe, one build from anti-matters, and the other one, from matters ? And that we are on the Universe of matters ? You know thermodynamic laws say nothing is lost nothing is created, everything just transform. We always ask, how come matters exists, from where it comes, how come when first nothing was, and then there is… what if everything come from nothing… could this be the cases ? Mathematically, it can. I can bring numbers from “0”, “0” represent nothing, I can from 0 build 5 and -5, or any other kind of two set of opposite numbers. -5 + 5 = 0, and it is also true that I can say that 0 = -5 + 5 (of course that does not mean that 0 always equal -5 + 5) But if we were to apply this to the Universe to explain how from nothing we created matters, the law of thermodynamics of the conservation will not be respected… because this “0” could decide to modify both the anti-Universe and the Universe, like this. -6, 6, then -7, 7 etc… and in our side, in our Universe we will have more matter and more energy created, and this will contradict the laws of thermodynamics. Will it ? Not if, there is another aspect, because in order that the “nothing” divide in two and build anti-particles and particles, there must be some kind of energy permitting this, and this is the original energy before the big-bang, there was an energy that permitted the “nothing” to become something, and created the universe and an anti-Universe, this is how for example, we ill have -5 and 5, and not -10 and 10 etc… this is based on how far that energy as able to push this nothing. Here another problem, because if there was an energy, that means that it was not nothing, because nothing means nothing, not if there is another kind of energy, a modular energy, that would take the form of a sinus for example, that don have and “h” or a “k” the surface on the top neutralise the surfaces on the bottom… and this undulation is a kind of coded language, that contains every laws of our universe, and the undulation on that universe is written on every existing particle like a memory, that names this particle, and code where it is etc… I will develop more about this, if someone ask for it.

 

Now, again you are asking, what the hell is that to do with the other Universe… this energetic undulations is the bases of the fundamental laws of physic, in other universe, this energetic undulations that created those universe and their parallels(anti-Universe), would be different and program those universe differently.

 

So no, every universe don’t have to respect the same laws, our has to, and our anti-Universe as well, but in the case of the anti-Universe, the laws are respected oppositely.

 

Well, is that a scientific fact ? Not proven, its just my theory, I say that on the end, because if I would have say it at the beginning, you would have probably not pied so much attention.

 

Ah and, I know that when Sip will read that “undulation” stuff he will say that the universe is just a program, and that computers are the bases of fundamental laws, and that all those laws are just someone that have programmed us LOL … right ?

 

[ November 12, 2002, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Guest Fadi]

Forgot to say, I exposed what may become my theses... and everything there is copyrighted by me. So no copy please.

 

[ November 12, 2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Guest Fadi]

TB, you are right, about the starting moment of the Universe, before the big bang… everything was ordered to its maximum, even if there was not a thing beside energy. But still we can not consider this as an order, as we describe(you’ll see what I mean) but a singularity(many evidences have been found about the possibility of the existence of singularity), this mean that every laws of the Universe could have been explained by one fundamental law. At that moment, the 4 fundamental forces were unified, every dimension were unified(even time could be explained by using space coordinates). So this is why you can not talk about order, from the sense we know of. Order means a kind of organization of many things, many different entities, existing with each others, forming with their organization, another body. Here before the big bang, everything was the same, and the condensed order you are talking about happened just after the big bang, something that took less then (10^-25) sec. At that time, the unification of laws, such as the 4 fundamental forces still existed, a very big amount of energy that needed no order, because there was nothing to order. This is why you can not talk of order… more things there is, more you can organize them with each others, more order you obtain. I see this as kinetic and potential energy. First before the big bang, there was potential energy and no kinetic energy, and as well, since every laws of the Universe were programmed in that energy, and since this energy was unified, every laws were unified, what unification also means is that the world of math and physic become one entity. There was as well potential order, but no kinetic order, the total order could be found, with Ok + Op = Ot, the total order of the Universe never changed, when I was talking about orders, I was talking about Kinetic order, I believe that the laws of thermodynamic could be as well applied to the level of order. First the unified energy, the Origin energy, had a potential of forming order, then the big bang happened, at the first little fraction of second, there was still no protons formed, then later sub-quarks, etc… the Kinetic order was still near non-existent, while the potential order was near at its maximum, slowly, that potential order became Kinetic. There is a theoretical way to calculate, the total order, its to give unities to actual orders of the universe, what the laws that we discovered can “order” more, and by adding both of those, we come to the total amount of possible order that is directly linked with the transformation of the “Origin energy.”

 

So, when we say order, we mean Kinetic order, what we can perceive, what is organized, an atom of Oxygen is more organized than an atom of hydrogen, it has a higher degree of order, this is what happened with the Universe, the potential order, became what we call actual order, that is Kinetic order, the result of the potential order.

 

Now about life being an accident, and being the result of a universe among many, that had by chance the laws that would permit life. Statistically this does not make sense. How do you explain that in the only Universe we know of there is life ? I mean, how do you explain that in the only universe that we know of, we realize of its existence ? In all the universe that may exist, have we that chance to end up only in a place where the laws could permit life. I do not agree with you here… the only reason that there is life, is because the only thing that this Universe needed was a record of its past and the knowledge of its possible future, and by chance we end up being here. Statistically speaking, that’s an impossibility, because with every kind of universe it could be, with the every possible laws, with universe that we can even not have an idea of how it could be, because our brain is made of matter, permitted by the laws of this universe, its connections respects the laws of this universe, in order for us to conceive anything from any other universe, we should have been made of an order of that other universe, because matter is proper to our universe, matter became matter because the laws present in this universe have permitted, and even when we try to imagine another universe with different laws, we bases ourselves on actual of this universe. For example, we may say that in other universe, gravity could be reverted, instead of attraction we may have repulsion, by doing such we are using this universe as a bases in order to extrapolate, in another universe, the conception of gravity may even not exist, because matter could even not exist, and we can even not conceive one moment of what could be in other universe…

 

The only thing that we know of, the only thing that we can know and understand that is the only common thing between universes, is order, I know you may disagree, but think about that, what makes this universe a universe ? Its existence is made possible by the existence of dimensions, a unification is not a universe, and unification conception is the only thing that could work on every universes. Why ? Because if there is no dimension, this Universe could not exist, a Universe need to be contained in itself, and when you say, it exist, then there is the notion of dimension that should contain it.

 

So here we go, in every universe, there should be dimensions, in every universe the possibility of singularity should exist, because if the universe can self contain, its asymptote is the singularity. Is the asymptote exist, then this singularity, in its point of singularity unify its fundamental laws. If it unify it, then the uses of this unification will result, of the organization of this universe based on this singularity “Origin law” then this will imply that in every universe, the Origin “Potential order” must exist, and everything following it, the “kinetic order” and another dimension that should be common in every universe should be time, not the same type of time as in this one, but a kind of dimension that would permit the transformation of the “potential order” to “kinetic order” time is the result of the possibility of the transformation of energy, and the relativity proves this.

 

So what does that mean, what the hell it has to do with life ? It does, because in our universe, the most complex possible thing that we know of, is life, and the type of “time dimension” we have, in order for something to be as much ordered as possible, there should be a record of past, and the knowledge of possibility of future, this is proper to our universe complexity, so as mysterious as it could be, life could be described as being just that. In other universe, the most complex thing could be another thing, that we can not understand at all, we can even not conceive it, but in this universe, we are the most complex and ordered thing that we may know of. This order and complexity could be localized and could have nothing to do with the disorder of the rest of the universe, but that does not mean anything, when an artist work, he put paints everywhere in his workplace, and he create disorder all over the place to complete its masterpiece. Life is a masterpiece that is proper to this universe, not because by chance this universe had the laws to permit this, but rather, the laws of this universe permitted it, because the most complex thing that this universe could produce, was the reaction of a part of itself, to evolve itself and record somehow past and understand the concept of the possibility of future. And this concords exactly from what we understand of the universe, that would be the most complex… what if we do other discoveries and understand the universe more, and understand that there is more complex than life ? Our understanding will bring us to be even more ordered, and will leave us again as the most ordered that we know of… as how the “Origin law” permitted.

 

[ November 14, 2002, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Twilight Bark]

Domino,

Are you pulling my leg?

[Guest Fadi]

Why are you telling this ?

 

I mean, you talked about order, and I have commented about the "order" thing. This is the conception I had for years, if you are not interested to discuss about this, just tell it TB.

[Guest Fadi]

TB, I am not picking or choosing what order is, I am just referring to the fact that we have order in overall universe, and the order we have on each localized parts of the universe. The total level of order does not change at all, entropy is about the second law of thermodynamic, Boltzmann entropy’s, about the close system, say that in a close system entropy can not decrease, the universe is a close thermodynamic system, that evolve by construction and destruction, BUT even the most complex construction, is what the universe permit to create life, this life, is very and very complex and ordered, the most complex and ordered thing we know of. Life contradict in a sense the entropic notion. You are using the concept of entropy, to recognize that the universe is losing its order, you considerate universe as an open system then, if you take a closer look at Sip answer, and the 3rd “law” he presented, I agreed with him, about the universe being a close system, because modern evidences point to that fact, even if the universe is in expansion, still there is no new energy formed in total then what was at the starting point of the universe, just as the thermodynamic second law says, the thermodynamic concept of entropy is directly based on the second law of thermodynamic. So the entropy concept that you have can not be applied to the universe, because the universe is a very unique closed system, and this is exactly why I was forced to differentiate a “Kinetic order” and “potential order” as well. Now isolate life from dust, the ordered system in life is far superior then dust, this micro system that is life is a lot more complex then anything that we know of, atoms form molecules, molecules form organic composite, those composites part of a cell, those part of cells, the cells, those cells, organs, those organs, the organism etc… this is the order I am talking about, this microcosm that is human, is far more complex and ordered that everything that there is in the universe that we can know of. And here I am not the one coming up with the hierarchy orders, I am applying the order of hierarchy of the rational philosophers.

 

Now, like I said, the universe destroy and build, but not in the long run, in the long run, the universe is cooling down, and cooling brings stabilization, so what is happening is that the construction and destruction slows down,… now after that I don’t know what may happen, what I know is that it took about 15 billion years for the universe to create in the section where we live, more you let the universe time, more you are prone to let it create more order such as life, and here is the bases of my allegation that there is more “Kinetic order” but on the other side the accident as you call, will happens more, more you give universe time, in a way, that those said “accident” will increase by their numbers in other region of this universe, even if some species will disappear and others will appear, it takes few ones surviving and being advanced to be able to adapt and survive, statistically speaking in the long run, there is more chance it increase.

 

Now about us being the life I am talking about, exactly, and this universe that we live in permitted that.

 

Sorry of boring you, I needed to write that.

 

[ November 15, 2002, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Guest Fadi]

Oh ! I just realized where you have something against what I wrote, you bases the definition of order entirely on entropy, and the conception of the increase of entropy… but still, we are not entirely sure of that, … life does not respect entropy, Darwinian evolution does not. Even if we talk about the destruction from one part for the construction of another part(life), what result after that “conscience” is just more then the thermodynamic laws.

[Guest Fadi]

Oups, forgot to add something, before you jump on me. When I said that you considered universe as an open system, I should have added that I suppose the acceleration of the expension, and the black whole as ways of "equilibrating" the increase of entropy, and making it become reversible(considering the observation of the acceleration of the expension or the deceleration of the speed of light).

 

So that was my mistake, so from my believe of the universe, the "entropy" increase of the closed system such as the universe, will mean that the universe would be an open system, but I am sure you have a different conception of universe, the more concervative one, only with the expension, by being in the same time a closed system, of course if you do not consider that other universes may be linked with this one, etc...

 

So sorry, I have insinuated your believe and answered after that insinuation.

 

Ah and to add, I have eaten courses covering thermodynamic more then I could ever digest, its just that I do not believe that the conservative second law is compleat to discribe the universe... after re-reading my posts again, I realised that I have jumped to much.

 

[ November 14, 2002, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Guest Fadi]

http://network54.com/Realm/dfgdf/222.jpg

 

For interest, this is why I do not believe the increase of entropy, this is how I concieve the universe, the center is a pulsative force that bring every branch to spin on one side and then at the other, while this pulse has a very little emplitude more you are farer then this center, more the pulsation does a bigger arc... every points of the universe are attracted by the outside, because again of the laws of concentration, things more from lesser concentrate to more concentrate, outside of the universe, there is nothing to movie, but the difference of pressure pushes the universe outside, so its speed accelerate, to a point that the pulsation changes its direction and invert, first it was an observed expension, then this expension become a contraction, even if there is no big crunch, while this happens, gravity end up having to control, then it will be like this some 50 billions of years, untill the pulse inversion happens again, then things are reverted the gravitational attraction is annulated, and the presure of the universe affect again etc... This pulse comes from a singular point, and its arc is infinitaly small, but considering the size of the universe, and how far the majority of masses is, this little pulsation end up having this consequences.

 

While this happens, still the universe could cool down, after what something could happen, that I could not imaginate of. Or even maybe the universe even don't cool down to that point, but warm a little every time there is this small contraction, so in both cases the entropy increases from what I see could not really be respected, in the first cases, maybe yes, maybe no, on the second cases simply not.

 

If we consider the universe being between 12-25 billion years, life on Earth is about 3 billion old, do you realise that considering the ages of life on earth, its still very considerable in term of logevity, compared to the age of the universe ? And life did evolved untill having human as the most evolved specy(not really physically but rather intellectualy). Now imagine in the universe, the period that life could cover, can you call this an accident ? I don't. This is why I say the universe become more ordered, because those "accidents" could only multiply, because life is the only thing that we know that does not respect the law of entropy entirly(other then the universe, but this is only a believe for me right now), because it evolve and complexify, and this evolution act like if it was a disorder, we know that things in general become more desordonated because it is the form that require less energy, and while disorder while prime finaly compared with the laws of thermodynamics, its like life is an order that act as a desorder, think about that, onces your body is affected, a bacteria will multiply and untill it takes the control of your body, like desorder, while life in itself is ordonated and complex it acts like if it was disorder.

 

Have you any explaination conserning that ?

 

[ November 14, 2002, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Twilight Bark]

Well, it's just that I expected you not to stumble in the ways you seem to be. For example, you ask me how come we end up in the one universe that allows the evolution of life. Come on now, Domino, we are not inter-universe travellers. We are the life you are talking about.

 

Also, we cannot pick and choose what we mean by order. It is statistically defined, and is best represented by the concept of entropy. I was not referring to pre-bigbang. The violent explosion of the big bang must not have been an order producing event. I know, a singularity or a soup of a universe stuffed into a pinhead are not the most appealing examples of "order", but they do nevertheless represent an extremely "ordered" state. As for the local increases in order, such as life, there is nothing thermodynamically mysterious about it.

 

And yes, I am tired of discussing the subject. It was fun though.

 

Best,

TB