Working hard ... key to success?

[Sip]

Ok I know what some of you are thinking ... "Oh no, here goes Sip again with another one of his mental diarrheas!" ... but sorry I can't help it! I just have to know.

 

All my life I have heard over and over and over how one must "work hard". "Work hard and you will succeed," they all say. Parrents tell their kids, teachers tell their students, bosses tell their workers, minsters tell their parishioners, etc etc. Especially in Armenian circles, I hear it over and over.

 

But is it really true? Does working hard equate with success?

 

Ok let me say that you don't have to convince me that the converse is not true! Yes, if you don't work hard, you will not succeed. I agree!

 

But especially in the past few years, I have seen it many times ... several of my "colleagues" really working hard. Acutally, working their asses off ... much harder than I ... but they just don't seem to succeed. I really feel sorry for them. If there was any justice in the world, they should have been ultra successful by the amount of effort and time they put into their "work".

 

Another example ... I see these poor, low-income, middle aged workers spend hours and hours at low paying jobs with no future ... REALLY working hard (for example at McDonals)... much harder than many others (probably including me). Yet it is obvious that they will probably never "succeed" by any meaning of the word.

 

Unfortunately, in this second case, most often there is no other choice. It is a matter of survivial. But in the first example above, many of those lives could be spent in much more fruitfuil ways ... only if they realized that just "working hard" and just spending days and days suffering, will NOT guarantee success.

 

So what do you think? Do you think we are fooling our kids and ourselves by saying things like "work hard and you will succeed?" Shouldn't we instead say things like: "think first, set goals, then work hard towards those goals, but then realize your limitations and do change your goals accordingly (i.e. think some more)" ???

 

or maybe we should tell them the truth: "There is no guarantee you will succeed so work hard enough and always think".

 

... or maybe I am just thinking too much into this. Let the kid just "work hard" and figure out life on his/her own?

 

[ August 17, 2002, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Azat]

I think "most"(I know there are always exceptions) who work hard will be successful. We just need a better definition of what success is. Sip, if you by "successful" mean "rich". I would say just working hard does not mean you will get rich. However working hard will get you ahead in your career, will allow you to earn more money then most who work less harder than you do and so on.

 

I'll give you an example: Recently(about a month ago) in LA Times there was an article about a Mexican gentleman who had worked very hard at McDonalds for some 15 years. He had worked overtime whenever they had asked him to. He had worked the shifts that no one else wanted to work. He had only called in sick hand full of times and was devoted to the McDonalds as a career. In 15 years he had managed to advance from a clerk/bust boy to the representative for the east LA 12 McDonalds. However his salary at this time is sub 90K. Not bad, but noting that spectacular.

 

I consider this person very successful. Would you not agree?

 

I can tell you that when I managed the online group at a major studio here in LA few years back I use to interview CS graduate students from UCLA who use to ask 80-90K to start from school. I do not consider them successful. They need to go out in the real world and prove themselves successful. I think success is somewhat measured on how you do compare to others in your click.

 

Maybe I am wrong. I don't know. I love to hear what others say.

[shiner]

Working hard does not guarantee success, but it makes it more likely to happen than if you don't work hard. It is only one component of the road to success. It is also important to work efficiently (kind of like what Seaphan was saying, keep your eyes open, make adjustments, take advantage of opportunities, etc.)

[Sip]

Yah! That's the word I was basically looking for. I think you got what I was trying to say. To make another simplistic example, let's say I want to build a house. If I get up in the morning, start jumping up and down, running around, digging holes in the ground and then fill them up, even though I WORK very hard, I will NEVER succeed in building the house!

 

So was my observation with fellow students at school. Some of them work amazingly hard. Days before a test they spread all their books over a table, shuffle through pages and pages of notes, make zillions of colorful "flash cards", drink gallons of coffee ... but then they end up not doing too well on the test. All this, even though they suffered hours and hours, "worked" tirelessly taking beautiful notes in class, making those awesome note cards, and then spending all their time in the library flipping pages and "reading" their beautiful notes. Then they wonder what happened... why didn't their hard work pay off as it was supposed to ...

 

Azat: Good question about success. I am not sure how to define it. As of now, I think "success" is what others think of your accomplishments.

[Azat]

Are you calling me a looser?

 

I would also add that how one defines him/her self is also different from the way others define them.(I think) Most of my friends and family feels that I am successful. I am not rich by any means, but I live an okay life. I purchased my home(myself) at the age of 28, I never really worry about mortgage and bills and all that. Go out to really nice restaurants, shop in nice stores, buy a new car every 4 years and so on. I however consider myself not successful, in fact I think of myself as almost a failure. I define success as being multi millionaire(only for myself). I have this weird idea for only myself that I am not successful if I am not RICH. (Doctor, what should I do? )

[nairi]

I truly hope not.

[Sip]

Why not? The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me. It all goes back to my philosophy on "you are what you seem to be" (click for the full thread). If Azat looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then he is a duck! (replace all those with the stuff he said about house, car, job, etc and the conlclusion by "successful").

 

I really think success is a measure by which others rate your accomplishments. What you think in your head is irrelevant

 

Were you referring to me? In that case you still have to wait about a year

[nairi]

Irrelevant to others, but not yourself. Different people will have different opinions about you. What I might consider a success, you might consider a failure and vice versa.

 

The same goes for looks and personality. What I think is pretty and smart, you may think is ugly and stupid. Who says I should trust your opinion over mine? And why should you trust mine over yours?

 

Why is he a duck? Only because he looks like one, walks like one and quacks like one? People have so much more hidden in them. Just because you look "like" something, doesn't necessarily you "are" that thing. For instance, I look like a Turk, I walk like a Turk, I quack like a Turk (most of the time), and yet I'm not a Turk. I know I'm not a Turk. But many other Dutch people, for instance, may not be able to tell the difference. Should I care?

 

[ August 24, 2002, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: nairi ]

[Sip]

I don't think you should particularly "care" about it. However I think you should at least be "aware" of it ... That most likely, if you walk, talk, and act like a Turk, you are a turk (I am sorry to say). It does NOT matter to the world what is going on in your head and what you "think". It only matters what you "do". That's my position on the thing and I am fully aware that many people disagree.

 

Many say if you are a good person inside, that's all that matters. I say, NO! You are only a good person if you act like one. If you help the ones in need, if you don't hurt others around you etc. The world couldn't care less if you think about that stuff all the time but act like a Turk!

[Sip]

Are we still talking about Azat? For the record, I don't think he is stupid. hahahaha

 

But about success, I "agree" with you that different people will have different opinions of you. In the eyes of a homeless guy, Azat may be very successful. In the eyes of Bill Gates, Azat may be the biggest loser in the world! Thus, "success" is by no means a Universal absolute metric by which we can measure things.

 

So in the original post that started this thread, when I was talking about people not succeeding in things, it was purely my perspective on things (my measure of their success).

 

[ August 24, 2002, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[nairi]

This is a fact. Therefore, why should it matter to me what the world thinks?

[Sip]

Because, IN MY OPINION, you ARE what the world thinks of you. In other words, you are what you seem to be.

 

Now you may not care about what you are. You may be more interested in what you think you are or what you want to be. That is what defines you as an individual. All I am saying is, don't be too caught up in your head. You may get the wrong impression of yourself.

 

It's strange ... this thing is so clear to me yet I always have trouble explaining it to people. Which makes me think that I may be very mistaken somewhere in my reasoning.

[nairi]

Actually you're making perfect sense to me. I'm just trying to look at it from another angle.

 

If my impression of me is wrong, then why is the world's impression of me right?

[Sip]

Right or wrong have fuzzy meaning here. The way I am defining it, the world's impression of you is what is "right". Now if you want to talk about the universal truth ... I am as much in a loss as probably every human that has ever pondered the real "truth" question

 

So your impression of you is not WRONG per se ... it is just is not accurate in defining what you "are". I can't help but to say it again: "You are what you seem to be".

 

---

Now to make things even more complicated, here is a strange example:

 

Suppose there is a person called Sip. You pose questions to Sip. He goes in some room, after some time, he comes back with the answer. Now is Sip "intelligent" ?

 

According to my definition, yes he is. He is extremely intelligent if he can answer your questions.

 

Now Sip knows in his head, that he goes in that room, connects to the net, and uses Google to come up with those answers. Does it make him any less intelligent?

 

NO! As long as the world doesn't become aware of that fact, Sip is super intelligent.

 

Yah, I know, we live in a crazy world but hey, what can we do? We'll just make the best of it.

[nairi]

Okay, so now you fooled the world into thinking you're smart (just like I fooled Azat into thinking I'm smart), what happens when you get a question or assignment that does not have a ready-made answer for you on the internet? How long can you pretend to be someone you're not?

 

My main problem with your theory is that the more I listen to the world, the more confused I get about what I really am. Which, btw, does not mean that the more I listen to myself the less confused I get about what I really am.

 

Now, considering that the world doesn't know what it is either, then who is it to dictate what you are?

 

Nairi

[Azat]

Thank you Nairi. I always knew you were smart. That is what I tell every woman I meet. "Just because I look like a duck, does not mean I am a duck" But non believe me.

[Sip]

Hey, if you fooled Azat, then you ARE smart Azat is one smart duck!

 

I think you are at the hearth of the question. Can we go on fooling the world regarding our true self. What if the true self comes out ...

 

Well, my answer is that if and when your "true" self comes out, that's when you change! Yup ... I never said you will not change. I think individuals change a LOT throughout their lives. One day they are good, one day they are bad. One day they are smart, and one day they are sad. (hey, it rhymed, so I went with it)

 

Can you fool the world and be someone you are not? Absolutely! That's one of the main challenges of life.

 

The big question is ... can I go on for the rest of my life pretending to be this Sip? or will one day the true lazy, arrogant, selfish, (put some other juicy adjectives here) essense of Sip come out? I hope not... So far, I have been pretty sucessful in pushing that Sip into a deep dark corner. As long as he stays there, I am what you "see".

[Loreley]

Sip: I know it has been long time since you post this topic, but I hope I can still voice my opinion. You wrote "Success is what others think of your accomplishments."

I think that each person defines her/his own success in his/her life. Society's definition of success is having a degree (from a prestigious school, with honors), having a high paying job, having money, a new car, a house, a dog (The american dream), being heterosexual, married, with children. My personal definition of success (for my life)is that I will feel successful by doing what I like, knowing that I made a difference in some people's lives, that I stood up for what I believed in, and that I became the person that I want to be (in the emotional and moral sense). I don't believe that degrees (although I want to go back to school to have more knowlege and use the priveldge of having an education to help others), tittles, jobs define success.

You stated that "what you think is irrelevant." I think that your perception of yourself is the main thing. How you think about yourself affects how others will treat you. If you think that you are smart, nice, etc, you expect people to treat that way. If you have low self-esteem, you always assume that people think that you are not competent even when people might not be thinking that.

"If you work hard, you will succeed." Working hard will help. You are right in that for some people, that is not true. For example, garment workers in the maquiladoras, they work 12-14 hours per week, can't go to school becuase of work, their children start working at age of 13 , it is like a cycle. In the U.S., for undocumented immigrants and for people of color, that statement is only a cliche. It is like that saying that it is up to the individual to achieve upward mobility. Actually, the system doesn't allow a lot of people to do that. I agree with you in this.

[Loreley]

Sip: I meant 12-14 hours per day (not per week). Imagine, Chinese workers get 7 CENTS per hours for sewing.

[Sip]

AMEN TO THAT!!! I couldn't agree more. In some people's minds, all they need to do is to GET the degree, no matter HOW they get it. But in essence, the "degree" itself is just a piece of paper and not much more.

 

Your personal definition of success definitely makes sense.

[Azat]

Sometimes things happen in life to put into perspective how successful one is or not.

 

I am a TOTAL LOOSER. MAJOR.

 

Last night I went to dinner at the house of a prospective employer. Well, let me tell you what a looser I am. This guy in his late 30s lives with his wife in a beautiful mansion(no other way to describe it) in the hills of Malibu on Las Tunas Canyon. I have been to many nice homes including my old bosses who is married to the guy who produced M.A.S.H. but this home was different. It was spectacular. With views of the ocean on one side and Topanga Canyon on the other side and the only fully functioning vineyard in Malibu on the other side. Yes i am not kidding when I say vineyard(and he does own that company as well), and you are correct I was there to interview for the grape pickers positions for this summer.

 

Oh and let me tell you about the kitchen. For a person who enjoys cooking, this kitchen would be considered heaven. All Viking and Wolf appliances. No kidding, it was bigger than my living-room.

 

Sip, now that is what I call success my friend and I am not successful for sure.

 

[ January 23, 2003, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Azat ]

[CheekY]

100%

Ever wonder about those people who say they are giving more than 100%?

We have all been to those meetings where someone wants over 100%.

How about achieving 103%? Here's a little math that might prove helpful.

What makes life 100%?

If: A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z is represented as:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26

 

Then:

K N O W L E D G E = 11 14 15 23 12 5 4 7 5 = 96%

H A R D W O R K = 8 1 18 4 23 15 18 11 = 98%

A T T I T U D E = 1 20 20 9 20 21 4 5 = 100%

And, B U L L S H I T = 2 21 12 12 19 8 9 20 = 103%

So, it stands to reason that hard work and knowledge will get you close,

attitude will get you there, but Bullshit will put you over the top !

[America-Hye]

The owner of my firm called me aside last night to tell me that I was doing a good job. No fellow Armenian to slit my throat at this job. At my last job there was another Armenian without an Armenian surname in a management position. He never missed an opportunity, whenever I received an award of some kind to bring to light to any new supervisor of mine that I was not 100% heterosexual. Neither of us had an Armenian surname, yet he felt it was his badge of honor to bring me down every time I had an achievement. This guy is distantly related to me. He was one who mingled in Republican Armenian circles and bragged to everyone about his acquaintance with Gov. Deukmejian and Justice Arabian. And you want to know why I despise Conservative Republicans?

 

Sorry, Arnold is not your kind of Republican, Gamavor and Hovsep. The false Christians are going to get only a small portion of his ear. He knows that too much visibility of these "satans in angels clothing" will ruin his chances of re-election.