Armenian Clergy + Respect

[shiner]

How much respect do individual Armenian clergy deserve? What exactly do individual Armenian clergy do for Armenia and the nation? And by Armenian clergy I don't mean the Armenian church as an institution. I'm talking about individual men.

[MadArmo]

Your perception of the Armenian church is invalid, And damaging not to mention reckless.

 

I suppose Gomidas confirms the importance for higher education by the church while we were being occopied by invaders... It was the only national institution available to our forfathers.

[MJ]

I think I wouldn't be original if I claim that I disagree with MadArmo’s statements and his sentiment, and I think that his attitude is very damaging and reckless towards the Armenian nation.

 

It is absolutely evident from the entire Armenian history that the Armenian Church has almost never been a national institution, but an institution into-itself and serving its own interests at the expense of the Armenian nation. Moreover, the Institution of Armenian Church has been the number one enemy of the nation and the number one responsible party for its distraction effective the fall of the Arshakuni Kingdom – first for the sake of the Hellenization of Armenia, second for its own sake.

 

And the comment about Gomoidas… I think it is hard to understand what was the underlying argument.

[MJ]

BTW, where has the above referenced message of Boghos disappear?

[Twilight Bark]

Hi MJ,

Good to "see" you again.

Yes, the Armenian Church, as the churches virtually everywhere, was largely motivated by self-interest and self-perpetuation. We see this not only in the traditional religions, but academic disciplines as well. Fortunate societies benefit from an alignment of their interests with the powerful institutions within them. And unfortunate societies suffer and eventually disappear because of a misalignment. As damaging as it was to the indigenous Armenian culture, the national church of Armenia did have the consequence of providing a focal point and a distinctive identity based on the grandiose notions of God, eternity and afterlife. I suspect that, had Armenians not converted to Christianity and developed a national church, they would have dissolved into the muslim masses and lost their identity completely. Having said that, I think the Armenian Church is a spent institution that should withdraw from a "leadership" position. I think that should happen even if there is a danger of leaving a "power vacuum" in the diaspora. The existence of the vacuum perhaps would provide a motivation for qualified leaders to appear.

 

[ May 26, 2002, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[Boghos]

Hello TB,

 

The leadership position of the AC in the diaspora has deteriorated significantly. It is now much more interested in aligning itself with the powers in Armenia proper.

 

The Church failed to create cadres of a quality that would help maintaining its position in the diaspora. It has very little to offer to most diasporans except maybe for celebrating ritual acts.

 

I think there is no vacuum at all, and there will never be. But that is a doctrinary position. We will not see any leaders arise simply because Armenians in the diaspora are not looking for a leader. Even if there was such a high caliber person that would make a "leader" he would probably do much better in an odar environment. Finally, a leader for what ?

 

I think what we need is to have well established "processes": make sure that we are close to the people we need to be in a professional manner and help Armenian in any way we can. I think Armenia will improve very quickly once the perception that it is cleaning up its act prevails. We are not very close to that, but perhaps closer than in the past.

 

The Armenian Church will always be there. Churches in many countries have played an important role in protecting democracy and human rights, this is not the nature of our church. Most of our churchmen see themselves as the guardians of "hayootion" and should be treated accordingly. Public servants without a real mission...But if there is a recommendation to them: "Do not disturb".

[Twilight Bark]

As usual, I agree with your general idea. I would like to highlight, though, the fact that I said "leaders", and not "leader". As you correctly point out, there is no need for a single leader in the diaspora; that would in fact be absurd given that the diaspora is spread over numerous countries. What I mean is that the church should step aside and encourage non-religious institutions to grow and acquire enough legitimacy to represent a community. The trend everywhere is increased secularization. For someone living in one's own country and culture the secularization poses no risk of loss of cultural identity and alienation form ancestral roots. The same secularization has a devastating effect on a church-centered Armenian community.

 

I am sure you have observed the gradual but unstoppable distancing of the Sao Paulo "kaghut" from the Armenian church as the old generation passed away. Is there an organization that filled the "void"? Can you have such an organization without the "leader" types?

[Twilight Bark]

That alignment with the "powers in Armenia proper" is not the sort of alignment we need. In fact, it is downright harmful if it acquires the character of "state religion"; and it is not too far from that. The church must align itself with the interests of the people, not the powers. The current cosy relationship between the Church and the state raises questions about freedom of faith, and does nothing to push the country out of cleptocracy. Such an "alignment" with the powers-that-be is not even in the interest of the church itself.

[Twilight Bark]

Poor BTac is still waiting for answers to his real question. The individual clergy's function, as Boghos said, is "to be there". For many of us, the clergy's function is to perform the ceremonies when we get married, baptize our children, and get buried. I don't attach particularly "Christian" value to those; I value them because it is something that has been done by Armenians for 1700 years, even though those ceremonies replaced our long-forgotten "true" Armenian customs. In other words, I wouldn't bother baptizing my child if I cannot do it in an Armenian church, by an Armenian priest. I wouldn't bother marrying in a church if it is not an Armenian church. In other words, the Armenian clergy are vehicles for carrying on a ceremonial tradition. Even though I hardly buy the biblical story, I am "home" in an Armenian church. I cannot say that for a church of the vanilla variety. An Armenian priest receives the kind of respect from me that I accord anyone fulfilling a perceived need, in a professional manner. Whether he is well-versed in biblical philosophizing is almost irrelevant for me. I think such a "secular" attitude is not uncommon among Armenians, although the non-stop "industrial evangelism" in the US might have changed that somewhat.

[Twilight Bark]

Ahh.. The glory of going down fighting

 

Or... Let's just fix RofA so we can move there (or establish a foothold, as the case may be). First, we have to make them want us I guess. How do you do that?

[Boghos]

Originally posted by Twilight Bark:

[[/qb]First, we have to make them want us I guess. How do you do that?[/QB]

 

Nobody wants us and haragag hates us comfortable living Armenians.

 

Another note: after NYC I went down to Palm Beach for a conference and then spent the weekend at Universal Studios, staying at the funniest fake Italian seaside village mockery I have ever seen. But I digress...I wanted to buy the villains t-shirts to bring over as gifts for my serious looking friends, you know Dastardly and a few others. They don't exist ! Oh, America, only purity and well meaning deeds .

 

[ May 28, 2002, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[Boghos]

Dear TB,

 

First of all it is quite clear that I misread you. I think that even the concept of "leaders" (I thought previously that you were referring to someone like Bronfman, from the WJC) ie secular institutions that occupy the space of the church already exist and they cannot be called a success. Perhaps not a failure, but certainly not a success.

 

The only type of institution that would really foster hayootioon in the diaspora is a high quality Armenian school. But this doesn[t replace the Church because of a different temporal dynamic. It is more wishful thinking than anything else.

 

I guess I am going back to my previous stated point that the diaspora will inevitably disappear for practical purposes, it will be a complex process of immigration vs emigration combined with the melting point, but it will vanish. To be sure it might be able to stand alone in places where it is much more difficult to assimilate, but these are just exceptions.

 

This is the pessimistic(some call it: realist) long term view. That does not mean that we should just cross our arms and wait for the debacle quite the contrary, but we should not fight a losing battle (even though we seem to like it). We should have focus and devote what we can: "from one according to his capacity, to one according to his needs" .

[MadArmo]

Indeed very original to blame the church, Damaging towards the Armenian nation !? Don't be ridiculous MJ.

 

 

So, The Armenian Church served it's own hierarchy and not the people, Perhaps some truth in your arguements...

 

Disagree !!

 

I used him as an example, He contributed to Armenian culture with his music. So, the Armenian Church did curve the assimilation process.

[shiner]

80% of the time Armenian clergy demand more respect than they deserve. That's my opinion.

[Twilight Bark]

Most individuals (that are not down and depressed) demand more respect than they deserve. We all do. That is how we negotiate our places in society. Of course, we end up receiving as much respect as people are prepared to give, according to our perceived value. Why should the clergy be any different? They should demand more respect than is due, and we should respect them as much as we think is right. In the end the "price" is determined by the free market. Things break down only when the affected person for one reason or another no longer accepts the free-market result.

 

If the clergy have "customers" that are willing to "pay" the demanded respect, they will presumably be happy, and you can have a free-ride by not respecting them at all.