Derenik/Ali

[MJ]

Thoth,

 

You may disagree all you want. I know Gamavor personally. I have set with him not once, have spoken to him and have looked him in the eyes. If he is reactionary, then you and me are Eskimo. In fact, I would argue that he may be as liberal minded as you are.

 

You are wrong if you think I have missed your point about the suffering of the common Chechen people. I empathize them all you want. I also empathize the sufferings of Azeris, Turks, Palestinians, Jews, Bangladeshi - you name it. But my utmost concern is for my Nation. My concern is not an idle tabloid concern for the sake of satisfaction of some ideological thirst. It doesn’t do much if I come to Internet and discharge by ventilating on how much “I am concerned about my neighbor,” when I have responsibility for my family. And this is not about Gamavor, you or me. This is about the wolves my nation is surrounded by. My neighborhood obligates me to be alert and mistrusting – there is not a single shred of argument that you can bring which would make me not feel that way – we have seen more than our share. And if you come to my house and advocate me to put my arms down, then I will just shut you as a provocateur and defeatist. Not because I am bloodthirsty. Quite the opposite – I hate blood. But I would not give anyone the opportunity to put me asleep and then to butcher my children. All this obviously is allegory.

 

About the Chechens, again. For more than a decade Chechen bandits (and this are not handful but brigades and they are not transplanted from Mars but they come from the Culture of the common folk in Caucasian mountains) have terrorized Russia, they are on the frontiers of organized crime, have turned that capital of culture and science into medieval nightmare, they kill lawlessly on the streets, they rub, they impose “taxes” on all entrepreneurs. What makes them different from the rest of criminals is their viciousness – they take pleasure in killing. Neither their lives nor their victim’s lives have any value to them. They are brave on the streets of cities against the civilians but behave like chickens on the battlefields. They don’t fight like man but take pleasure in slitting someone’s throat. And when they are squeezed, they retreat to their mountains and play on the public sympathy and empathy pretending to fight for independence so that to garner international support. You say you are supporting their plight? Plight for what? What independence? Do you think they are interested in independence? Then you are as naïve as it gets. They no perfectly well that Chechnya has zero chance to exist based on the merits of economics. No economy is possible there if it is not for Russia. And they would not be able to plunder Russia if Chechnya is independent. All this ventilation about their independence is just wool in the eyes of the clueless like you.

 

Do you really understand what is going on in Chechnya? Do you understand that there is one state that brings all that suffering on their common people – that is Turkey. Do you understand that has been going on for very long time. Cannot you see that Turkey c doesn’t give a damn about the Chechens and all it cares about is the creation of instability in the region so that the discussions of Russian pipeline cannot be discussed with any degree of seriousness. In fact, this is the only instance where Gamavor is fundamentally wrong. Oil companies have nothing to do with this. No investor of oil industry would put its money in a region such this. No drop of oil will flaw in this region unless there is a just and fair solution to the regional problems and unless regional security guaranties are established. This is the mistake of the Turkish Government – the game they play in Chechnya sets a precedent – they do it in Chechnya, Russians will do it in Georgia, and others will do it in Azerbaijan. For more than a decade the US government and the government of Turkey have lobbied Oil companies so that they invest in the Turkish pipeline. No Oil company has come forward. Guess what, the Oil industry is the most conservative industry that you can think of. No one in his right mind would put money in such a losing endeavor. So give me a break.

 

Back to the subject of Homeland. Armenia is my spiritual Homeland. It is in my dreams. But I have pledged loyalty to the US without any hesitation and am equally proud of it. It doesn’t stop me from claiming ownership of Armenia, and I don’t need a Souvenir Passport, as eloquently put once by Boghos, to do so.

 

About the trap. If you think I have nothing more rewarding to do but am wasting my time here by building trap for Domino, or whomever, I think you are losing your cool. I am trying to articulate some very basic things. I don’t think I am speaking complex language nor I am using complex logic. Everything I say is a simple as it gets. If someone doesn’t get it, it is for one reason only – it is not in his/her heart.

 

About “helping Armenia” and “sending money.” You know what, I personally couldn’t care less about it. Even 12 years ago Armenians in Armenia had the resentment towards the Diaspora money due to their understanding that it is not going to help Armenia to stand on its feet and Armenia has to become not only self-sufficient but competitive. So give me a break again. Besides, I send money to place that you would not even imagine. I used to live in Moscow when the Mexico City earthquake happened. And I sent money there. I have sent money to Bangladesh or to variety of Police Fraternities or Orphans around the US. Don’t give me that garbage, please. What I am talking is not about helping Armenia. I am talking about feeling ownership over her. I don’t know how many times and how much simpler can I put it.

 

About my dissatisfactions. Am I satisfied in my life? I have a pretty good life, beautiful family, outstanding career, incredible social and other opportunities. I will never be satisfied perhaps because my path is the infinity of self-perfection – intellectually and otherwise. It is a very dissatisfying journey no matter what. However, you see none of it. What you see is a deep dissatisfaction with this forum and the crap frequently contemplated here. If it was about someone’s personal thinking and respecting it, I would have no problem with it. But as I have said in the past, this is the Armenia Online – you like it or not. And as I have said once, “once you are on the stage, you are expected to perform adequately. Otherwise, leave the stage.” That’s all.

 

Let me know when you are ready for us to tap into your cellar.

 

 

Have to run. No time to read what I have written. It came as I felt.

[Guest Fadi]

Martin

 

You made your point, I have read them, thats not the problem here, when I said that it is to you to make us understand, I meant that it is to you to make it as clear to make us understand. There is a saying the the astrophysician, Hubert Reeves.

 

"How you can know you understand something, is when you are able to explain and make understand a child this subject that you think mastering."

 

As much as feeling of a homeland, I consider Canada, as my homeland, and this feeling of mine, I can apply it to understand what a homeland is, because I know what a homeland is, the question here is about your conception of homeland and what it imply, and this is exactlly what you should explain me, you have not done this, if you did it, it was not very clear in my mind, and I do not believe that being a feeling is enough a justification to desist from explaining me. Because as a part of the human specy, I have the capability of compassion, and compassion is to put myself on the place of another one, I have this capability.

 

Here is the main problem with what you brough, the problem in your explainations, is that even if I agree with the majority of your points, and even many times with all, sometimes I am mixed up about the "why" of this discussion, what I mean is that, many times you bring things that I like to read(I read everything you write BTW), and understand them, but do not know where you are trying to go with it, and the "why" that made you post what you hade to post at the end has nothing to do with your post itself. I do not know if you understand what I mean. Your answer to me Martin, I find it disconnected to my posts that made you answer, I still do not understand where is your disagreement with me, and when you tell me that Gamavor was right, and I was clueless, when I have even not made any comment on that subject, because I was clueless of that situation.

 

As for Gamavor, I totally disagree with you, if you have time, just read everything he has said on this forum since he registered, and tell me anything of any substance, show me anything where the reason why he did not posted it was not to slander a people or someone, the only thing I can recall, is a single post where someone asked something about law and he answered. I judge someone based on evidences, he slander and try to reduce people, and my judgement about him is based on that, I can not insinuate how he is in reality, I do not know, the only evidences I have about him, is pointing me to believe that he is just a worthless contributor and that he has nothing to offer... that the only thing I can conclude.

 

And about rationality, are you suggesting that I am even lesser then an irrational person ? Because you say he is more rational, then later you claim him being irrational, that makes me a lesser then a irrational person I believe. What can I say about this, is just a thank you.

 

[ November 03, 2002, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[MJ]

Dear Domino,

 

To make it easier for you, there is only one place that I am always headed in my discussions or materials – Armenia. That is the final destination of everything I say or do here. So just accept it and you would feel fine.

 

I have pretty much read everything Gamavor has written. If one can go beyond his sarcasm and emotional discharge, and sometimes beyond his hateful comments, one can find a lot of rational in what he is saying. However, I don’t think that his conduct is adequate, and I think he is the one who has brought down the Code of Conduct of this forum (along with Naira) – and it is unfortunate as much as I like very much both of them as human beings. Maybe one has to also see the fault of the Royal Ministers Ping, peng and Pong in this?

 

But I know why Gamavor is doing it. He is trying to balance the crap that is being posted here frequently, by pushing it to far to the right. It doesn’t do goodneither to this forum nor to his image but I understand his motives.

 

 

And about rationality, are you suggesting that I am even lesser then an irrational person ?

 

I don’t know where did you get this one from.

 

Because you say he is more rational, then later you claim him being irrational, that makes me a lesser then a irrational person I believe. What can I say about this, is just a thank you.

 

This quote of yours is a perfect example of how you can misunderstand some very simple things. I think I have spoken about the rationality of the thinking of Gamavor and the irrationality of his conduct. Where is the contradiction in what I have said?

[Guest Fadi]

quote:

---

This quote of yours is a perfect example of how you can misunderstand some very simple things. I think I have spoken about the rationality of the thinking of Gamavor and the irrationality of his conduct. Where is the contradiction in what I have said?

---

It was not a misunderstanding from my part, "Irrationality" is about thinking more then a conduct, and when I read "Irrationality" it is about thinking first, and what it could imply(conduct primarly). If you read what Gamavor has writen, he may have points for you, but the reason why he may have those points are linked(from what we can conclude from his posts) to what he thinks.

 

I suppose that everyone here have the capability of thinking, and I give the benefit of dough to everywhere, for this I suppose that the conduct of everyone is a direct result of what he thinks, this is the first step I think, there is nowhwere writen that Gamavor behavour and what he thinks are a compleat different entities. And when we have a discussion and you write, the wordings and the way you treat others, I suppose that this is what you think, while when Gamavor slander a people and attack, how could you know from his posts that this is not what he thinks ? And why this is more a behavour then a thinking ?

 

Thats why I attack Gamavor, his Chechen situation analyse could be linked to his hate of a people, and his conclusion you can find it logical and on the track, when the prime reason why he thinks that could be totally irrational(his hate against a people), while you on the other had could call this prime reason a behavour and seprate it from his conclusion that you will call rational. This is why I say that Gamavor being on the track is more a statistical question then rational. And again, of course based from what I have to judge him.

 

Here we come to my answer to the other thread, if you go on that thread, you will see that I have answered what you call his irrational behavour, but for me it was the bases of his thinking, because what ever he may write, there is always the slandering of someone or a people, so considering him as someone having a rational thinking, then we have no choices then saying that his logic is based on what you consider a behavour.

 

So thats the main point here Martin, call it behavour or thinking, when you talk about Irrationality you have no choice then saying its "thinking" now what you know in real life of Gamavor, and his real purposes, I have no idea of, because I judge from what I see and not I dont.

 

[ November 03, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[MJ]

Dear Domino,

 

It is so ironic that it would take from you almost a page to contemplate what you were trying to say there. Such a waste of ink, don't you think so?

 

Here is what I have said precisely: "In fact, his thinking is much more rational than yours and he is much more informed and well read on fundamental issues than you Unfortunately his conduct is irrational and inappropriate. But, then, hey, many people feel the same about my conduct."

 

What were you saying, Domino? Can you articulate it in one sentence, otherwise I started reading your reply, and after reading the first sentence, I couldn't continue. Just be to the point, OK?

[Guest Fadi]

I think I have explaned quite well...

 

Can you prove me it was a conduct rather than a thinking ? What you consider as a conduct of his, I consider it as a thinking of his. Because irrationality is about lack of logic than anything else. And BTW, at least I have explaned what I meant above, be it, one oage, two or three, I think I did it as clear as I could, where do you not understand ?

 

[ November 03, 2002, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Guest Fadi]

And furthermore, my answer was not about those few lines, but your post as an all, I just though that those few lines were the center of the discussion.

 

[ November 03, 2002, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[THOTH]

MJ -

 

First of all I have never directly addrressed the concept of Chechen independence except perhaps with an offhand comment that I would one day prefer to see the Russians out of the Caucuses altogether (which I admit is a sort of an unacheivable ideal and I haven't at all entered into any discussion of how I would see a situation in the region where this would be favorable/doable). Nor have I ever expressed any sympathy for the Chechen Warlord/bandits/terrorists - theri actions or their supposed "cause" (outside of the thought that Russian intervention in the Caucuses has not always been beneficial to Caucasian peoples) - I have expressed just the opposite I thought - that I pity the poor (common) Chechens for the poor quality of their leadership. (I should inform you BTW that one of my degrees is in Political Anthropology and I very well understand the manner that "leaders" reflect and arise out of particular cultures and I have at least some general understanding of Caucasian tribal culture) - so I am not entirely naive concerning the Chechens.

 

Equally I understand (very well) the rise of the Chechen gangs in Moscow and other cities in Russia - how they decimated and wrested control (from the ethnic Slavic and Tartar gangs) and escalated the extortion and violence (and the kidnappings/bombings etc) to the degree that it spurred Russina military action. As well I understand the type of threat the Chechens and other Muslim fanatic types pose against the Armenians. I am perhaps less clear on the details of Turkish involvement vis a vis the oil pipeline issue and such - though I understand at least some of this conceptually. I certainly understand the Turks coveting this region and wishing it destabalized - even if I am not party to all of the specifics. So I do think I understand what is at stake.

 

Bottom line I disagree with the thrust that you (and Bogos) make that I am naive about the geopolitics in the region. I think that you have been putting words into my mouth and assuming/extrapolating what I have said to fit a preconcieved notion on your part. Unless you think that my belief that Chechen women and children somehow deserve the punishment metted against them (from both Russian and Chechen actions - as I have previously said) - that this belief of mine is somehow incorect - because that is basically all I have said - then we obviously do disagree. Otherwise I think you are assuming things. I want these Chechen thugs put down as much as anyone - and I worry about their influence (and ability to bring instability and additional violence) in the surrounding region. I also underrstand how difficult it is for a nation to fight this sort of war.

 

Still - I can pity the innocents and decry barbaric acts - even if such acts can be seen as helpful to a cause I might support. You may continue to call me naive or idealistic - maybe so - but I think not. In fact - as an Armenian I feel I have a particular sensitivity to this type of issue - innocents terrorized by the State/by bandits/by what-have-you. I don't know - but this is my take - this is a fundemental part of the lesson I think I have learned from my family's history. (but of course I am just a privliged/liberal softy from a line of such - not some hard Easterner as you!).

 

Obviously my degree of comitment to Armenia is not the same as yours and perhaps others. I don't apoligize for that. Still I find Boghos's assertion that it is of a rotary club/bake sale type of category/mentality very insulting. Just as you say I have no clue about you - equally the opposite can be said to both/all of you concerning me and what I have been able to do for Armenia/its survival that in all likelyhood none will ever know about. And I am sorry but I have to leave it at that.

 

And I have a great interest in possibly doing more - and in possibly not only visiting but moving to Armenia (at least temporarily) - and this was a possibility for me last year and likely will be again in the near future. Though to some degree this would be more for my own (and my children's) education etc then part of any plan to do anything specific for Armenia - but one never knows. Of course this all requires my wife's consent and involvement and some other changes for me as well. Sure I am very used to the comforts of my home (including my cellar! - and as much as I consume it only seems to grow!) - but you might be surprised concerning my adaptability/toughness (though not as sure about the rest of the family). The language issue is of couse another problem for me - and I am very stubbron concerning my ineptitude with language in general. So who knows...

 

Again though - as much as I have sympathy for Armenia (and it is more then this, but...) - I am an American - my family is here, my home is here, and I do believe in this nation - and while I certainly do feel part of the Armenian "nation" and do understand your point in this regard - I am admitedly too assimilated to subsume my loyalties with my "nation" (the USA) to that of Armenia (and I can never see this otherwise...un;ess perhaps Bush was to be President for life or some such...).

 

Feeling ownership (over Armenia) - well I do in a sense - much as I cheer on every Armenian athelete, team, performer, scientist, acheiver or what have you - and think of them as one of my own - but you must understand that for me (Armenia) it is more distant then how some - such as yourself might feel. (will this change if I were to visit or live there - perhaps/likely - but perhaps not...?) I am sorry if you are not satisfied with this - or if it somehow means to you that you feel I am not worthy to discuss matters regarding Armenia - or to express my views on human rights or whatever - but thats just tough I guess. I don't know the answers or such - not any more then you or anyone else does. I may not be as informed as you or others on certain issues - but then again you might be just surprised in some cases. Aren't we all here to learn from one another in addition to showcasing our own brilliance?

 

Bottom line - I don't have to agree with you or with your concept of what is beneficial to say or not in an Armenian public forum. If stifling debate or just putting down people is your idea of acceptable or beneficial attitudes - then I would have to say that I disagree with you again. But perhaps this is because of my background - comming from the more liberal West - where very often I think you do reflect your more Eastern roots. Now will you disprove me and surprise me with (the nature/content of) your response?

[MJ]

Dear Domino,

 

It really is not worth my time to waste myself on such a shallow nonsense.

 

Sorry. I'll stop here.

[Guest Fadi]

Then sorry to not be enough intelligent for you, and sorry to shallow nonsense

 

And sorry that I am as dumb to not be able to differenciate like you, what is a behavour and what is a thinking, in posts such as this.

 

Regards

 

"Ali,

 

Go jump in a lake. Deep enough. Arine is right. You would never ever change. Same asiatic barbarians in European clothes. You think someone will buy your historical bullshit.

Turks are invaders whose culture is close to the one of the cattle that they still like to have "fun" with. You are foreign body in a foreign land. Don't you get it. Constantinople was thracian...bullshit. They were some trachs, who actually constituted significant part of the Greek ethnos and culture. Just like Armens amalgamated with the rest of Armenian tribes in Armenian plateau.

 

Your "brothers in arms" tried to eliminate the Armenian factor which was present in so-called Turkey, long before your animal ancestors came to Asia Minor. Blaming Russians that they "implanted" Armenians there is cheap shot. Very cheap shot. Knowing the thinking abilities of our "all similar" neighbors, I'm not surprised of consuming this garbage offered for public circulation. Don't worry. Kurds will have their state, soon or later because that is inevitable."

[MJ]

Domino,

One thing I support unequivocally is the right for self-determination.

[Boghos]

Taking personal issues aside for a moment, the essential content of Martin´s post (above) is perhaps one of the most important ever raised in this forum.

 

However I am convinced that it is very diffcult if not impossible to discuss it to the extent that any meanignful result will come of it.

 

Energies are mispent. The discussion of serious issues is turned into a boyscouts convention. Voluntarism is seen as an important venue for people like THOTH for whom Armenia is similar to Rotary Club or a curling team. The only reason we haven´t yet had a bake sale is because this is the internet, but we´ll get there.

 

Winston, why don´t you travel to Armenia ? Maybe you´ll find out that it is perhaps not to your taste, or that it does not conform to your dreams. But let´s end this cheapening of important issues and ridiculous propositions coming from apparently serious and mature people. It´s quite alright that some of our people had quite naive positions at the end of the XIX century, beginning of the XX. But to act pathetically at this point in time is clearly a waste. Fortunately it does not have any serious implications.

[Guest Fadi]

MJ, I understand that, that was clear in my mind.

 

Look MJ, more then 3 years ago, I did not gave a ... about Armenia, Armenians etc... that thing is very new for me, it happened like a magical thing, when I found a National Geographic issue of 1978 on a garbadge, on the cover the word Armenians refering to the pages it treat about us. I am very new on this, I admit, have admited many times, there is many thing I ignore, there is as well many issues that I will probably change my mind on one day. I am still young, and still don't have many experiences of life, or about the issue. I am only human in cases you missed this point, as well I am sure that you realise that my knowledge of English is very limited to make my points as clear as I would want. I many times recognised my mistakes, and when I do a mistake I recognise I have done one, people that know me know that it is one of my positive trait of caracter. But still I fail to understand what you are trying to mean, of course I understand and agree with the majority of times the points you makes, but I do not see where it brings to, and more the silent conclusion that I am supposed to make, I am not a devine.

 

To Boghos

 

For long I wanted to go to Armenia, it is a wish for me, and the only place that I have in mind to go, I would if I could, but for some reasons, not only economical, I just can't.

 

[ November 03, 2002, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Guest Fadi]

Thinking of it, maybe it is true that I have no knowledge of what a homeland is, maybe this is why Armenia is a kind of dream, more a mythological land, a kind of magical thing then anything else... if I would have the knowledge of what a homeland is, I would see Armenia as a real country.

[MJ]

Dear Domino,

 

All I can tell you is that I genuinely wish you success in your further growth and I am ready to contribute within reasonable limits if I can do so.

 

There is nothing personal in what I say or do in this site. I have no personal interests here. In fact, it is drainage for me. After the first weak of my presence in this forum, I have attempted to leave and not to return. I have no interest in arguing here, nor have interest in “competing” with some accidental “nationalist.” It would serve no purpose.

 

I have not started this forum. It has existed before I have known about it. By irony of developments, this forum is the one that has survived over the last several years amongst all existing ones. And you know perfectly well about them. Well, if it has to exist, it has to meet certain standard. Otherwise it is better to shut it down.

 

And I am not talking about my standards. I am talking the standards suitable for the Republic of Armenia, the way I have known them.

 

Otherwise, I couldn’t be more sick and tired of this place.

[MJ]

Thoth,

 

In my previous materials, even though I had addressed you, I really meant everyone who had spoken on the subject of the closed topic.

 

There are things that I can argue in your last post, but I have to run to work.

 

Just would like to make one comment for now: I am not trying to put any one down. It would serve no purpose. I am trying to raise the plank. This one, I think, serves a good purpose.

[MJ]

And a question: when the Russians leave Caucasus, who do you think enters?

[nairi]

Isn't it time Armenia became self-sufficient?

[THOTH]

MJ - I understand your fear (of the Turks) in the Caucuses. So , yes - saying Russia out of the Caucuses is an ideal - not practical at all for the forseable future. But there are dangers as well to being in a Region where other greater powers (Russia/Iran Turkey/US) have percieved strategic interests and where at the same time there are other baddies out to get you.

 

I'm not sure if Armenian will ever have the strength to go it alone. At some point an acceptable peace and resolution of disputes must be made - not only with the Azeris - but among all of the Caucasaian peoples - and ultimatley with Turkey as well. Anything less (as idealist as it sounds) - seems to me disaster for the Armenians - and perhaps for most others in the region. If the peoples of the Caucuses can't one day learn to get along they are doomed - either to destroy themselves or at the very least be dominated and manipulated by outsiders.

[MJ]

Thoth,

 

We, Armenians, are a very small player to decide who would be in and who would be out in Caucasus. However, currently, there is some status quo which makes things not as bad as they could be.

 

I think your hopes are akin to those of mine, which I have expressed out-loudly multiple times in Hye Forum, including in this thread – I hope some they proper regional security structures would be established which would guaranty fair and just peace in the region. For now, I don’t see it happening, therefore, allow me to choose the least of the evils, please.

 

Back to work.

[aurguplu]

hello everyone

 

the recent posts have raised very interesting points on which i shall comment to the best of my ability (i have had an operation two weeks ago and will have another one in two days' time so my ability will be slightly hampered, but let's give it a try).

 

re the chechen issue: 1. you must be mad to stick your nose into the internal affairs of russia, especially if you are not a superpower (which we are not), and we are many things, but not mad (i hope).

 

2. the reason why turkey is willy-nilly (and more nilly than willy) involved in the chechen issue is the large numbers of chechens in turkey and especially the large numbers of chechens in the police and especially the military forces (one recent chief of general staff, doğan güreş, was one, for instance). also, the caucasian community (which includes georgians, lazes, abhazians and the lot in addition to the chechens) are even more numerous and even more powerful pretty much everywhere in turkey, including politics, business, the police force and the military. in addition, the chechens are muslims, so are we, and turkey has acted as a refuge for balkan, caucasian and central asian muslims since the dismemberment of the ottoman empire in the balkans and the russian conquests in the caucasus and central asia. there is tremendous popular support for the chechens in turkey which the government is both unable and, frankly, unwilling, to tide: after all, what the russians are doing there is a crime against humanity if western reports and opinions are anything to go by. we are not the only ones against it, but we are the one major nation where caucasian muslim refugees traditionally end up, and we are naturally going to be against what they are doing.

 

it is true that chechens are receiving arms from inside turkey, but that is not quite the same as saying that they are being supported by turkey. after all, the pkk was also receiving arms frm inside turkey and turkey wasn't exactly supporting it, was it?

 

i must also add here that support for chechens is curiously sparse amongst turkish workers - or any turk who has been in russia for any length of time -. i had asked one why this was so, and she replied that as far as they could see the whole thing was more about appropriation of certain areas for money extortion and other illegal activities, i.e. a fight between various ethnic mafias, than anything like independence. several turkish labour groups (in construction sites etc) were also stopped by the chechens and were not treated much more differently than the russians, a fact that didn't endear the chechens to them.

 

as far as chechens and the oil business, 1) turks would love to see the oil flow, because it would most probably do so through turkey, and 2) the armenian-azeri conflict is a much greater problem for this than the chechen one.

 

so in brief we have no interest or incentive whatsoever in seeing russia destabilised. their destabilisation can - and does - mean our destabilisation. and also, tyou must be mad to risk a fight with russia - and we are not.

[aycemnik]

MJ

I find the label "accidental nationalis" a very funny one

[MJ]

Dear Aycemnik,

 

Perhaps you are right. But I think there are a lot more fannier things in this forum. In particular, Ali's posting above. What I don't understand is whether he is trying to entertain himself or us...?

[aurguplu]

mj,

 

you can do better than that.

[MJ]

Ali,

 

I paid as much as your material earned.