Is stubborn Armenian-ness holding us back?

[nairi]

As in "keeping your culture/language etc. alive". Basically the discussion that has been going on until now on this thread.

[wh00t]

Nairi, please show me an official AAA document pledging "strong support" for SOAD.

 

Alternately, please show me an official AAA document which contains the words "System of a Down" (in that order).

[nairi]

Wh00t, you're right. Not AAA, but definitely ANCA, as well as many many individual Armenians who simply love their music, regardless of the fact whether they are Armenians or not.

[khodja]

System of a Down and a long-scraggly haired German hippie are the Armenian heros of today, not the serpent-tongued Neiman-Marcus matrons throwing society balls.

[Twilight Bark]

Exactly. Instead of saying "they" should not be the way they are, institutions that are meant to represent the unrepresented must be formed. Who gives the right to anyone to define the borders of "Armenian community"? No one. It is a right that is taken, not given.

 

On the other hand, if our "famous" Mr. Baliozian could lament that he has not been supported and lavishly paid by those he criticizes (often rightly, though pointlessly, vulgarly, and with a clumsy and broad brush that covers the whole Armenian nation as well as its neighbors far and near to form a shapeless mess) for his public "service", perhaps we can forgive wh00t to demand mere acceptance by the "establishment".

 

But let us remember: Republicans don't complain about not being invited to the social functions of the Democrats. Green party voters don't expect to be invited to Bible reading classes or Young Republicans meetings. Socialists don't mind being snubbed by the Conservatives.

 

In any case, the best source of dynamism and progress is a healthy competition. If a free market is a good idea for the economy, it is much more so in the area of ideas and outlooks.

 

The question is, are there enough "New Armenians" that actually care about their Armenian identity for the "alternative" institutions to take hold, flourish, and act as magnets for the "alienated"? That is the "critical mass" we should be thinking about, not the one that is supposed to be left after we gleefully cut off the "undesirable" Armenians.

 

Compassion, love, and a positive attitude are not to be confused with a naive world view. In fact, they form a combination much more potent than a dour, exclusivist, and overly intellectual interpretation of Armenianness.

 

TB the radical moderate

[khodja]

TB,

 

As usual you possess great insights.

 

Yet if it were not for flame-throwers such as Baliozian and myself, the thoughs you so eloquently express would never come into the Armenian consciousness.

[nairi]

I haven't been in the best of moods lately. I'm not sure if you're referring to me, but I apologize if I sounded matronly...

 

TB, thanks for elaborating.

[khodja]

Nairi,

 

Why would you even think that I was refering to you? you are one of the more open minds in this forum. It is some of the men HERE who are pig-headed, like the individual who has a problem with Armenians from Turkey demanding their rights or the individual who paints all Jews with one brush. No, my problem is with rhe perfectly- coiffed matrons who sit on the Board of Directors of the majority of our organizations.

[nairi]

My mistake: too quick with an opinion.

 

[ January 08, 2003, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: nairi ]

[MJ]

I somewhat disagree with you, Vava, when you claim that people like Wh00t have challenges in being accepted by Armenian communities. Not that I mean they don’t have such challenges, but I mean, why would they give the “key of acceptance” to the “accepters?” Why would they need the “approval” of someone else, rather than to claim ownership of Armenia (not that I am using this tem over and over not out of some idle caprice) on their own will?

 

Obviously the Diasporan structures are fading away, and they are doomed to extinction. Part of it is due to the improved lifestyle of Armenians. Once the conditions of daily life improve people, in general, tend to become more private and isolated. This is especially true, when Armenians are transiting from the realm of small merchants dependent on each other as clients, into the realm of “shareholders” (in the broad sense of the word) of the “corporate cake.”

 

The existing communities, other than reflecting small-business incentives, are indicative, on their own, of non-acceptance by the earlier-settlers. Thus, why would one care about being accepted by the non-accepted, if one has a whole world in front of him/her that the “communities” are not even exposed to?

 

Finally, I think attitudes amongst the youth are changing very consistently. The new attitudes can formalized as, “I don’t care.”

[nairi]

You think so? Sometimes I feel more narrow-minded than my parents...

 

To get back to this: yes, I think there are enough "New Armenians" who care. In fact, I think many of these "alternative" institutions already exist, and are quite successful from what I hear. Think of AGLU (for gays and lesbians), or all the student organizations in universities where there are substantial amounts of Armenians.

 

Moreover, I'm not quite sure if "New Armenians" is a right term. I would simply call them "Armenians": they have been around ever since the beginning of our existence, and will continue to exist as long as we exist.

[Twilight Bark]

I hope you are right. However, there is a disturbing lack of observational evidence for their abundant existence. In other words, if there is a critical mass of "New Armenians", I do not see the results of it. I hope that is because I am not informed enough.

 

We have differing definitions of "alternative" institutions. While it is definitely a good thing for Armenians with an "alternative lifestyle" to have a cultural home, that was not what I had in mind when I used the term "alternative". As for the student organizations, how many of them are hitting the parents of the students for a good chunk of money for the computer literate students or alumni to write rich, modern, and professional computer games with Armenian themes? A few gameboy or playstation games that at least have an Armenian option would be a much greater breakthrough than most anything our genocide-obsessed institutions would regard as a "great achievement". How "alternative" are these "alternative" institutions? How many of them are making it possible to make the word "Armenian" relevant to an Armenian kid that is growing up outside the ghetto? Do they care? The relevant "new" alternative is not in the use of genitals, or in the age of the body. It's in the head.

 

A rational mindset that is different from an instinctive and failing one deserves to have the adjective "new" attached to it. Again, the question is not whether "New Armenians" have ever existed or not. The question is, do they exist now in numbers that form a "critical mass"? If they do, they are not led by anyone anywhere. Again, I hope my impressions are due to my ignorance.

[khodja]

TB,

 

Place any people in a new environment and they will conform somewhat to that environment. Armenians have done this quite well over the centuries. Many new Armenians have assimilated new cultures while holding on to the things that keep them Armenian. We have more of this due to the fact that the majority of Armenians are in a diaspora. The key word for us should be tolerance. One of my closest friends in my youth was Yegytotzi Hye. I was totally America-Hye.

 

As for your comment that homosexuality or bisexuality has to do with genitals, that is not correct. It has to do with the mind. The genitals are just a machine which is controlled by the mind. Whatever causes these phonomenon emanates from the mind. Homosexuals exhibit an approach to the world which is different than that of heterosexuals. The bisexuals, who can are aware of both camps, understand this best. The celibates, who do not dissipate their energies become very aware that this whole phenomenon is based in the mind.

[nairi]

Then what do you have in mind when you say "alternative"? I'm not sure I understand.

 

Sifan, now here's a job for you!

 

On a different note, I see more and more "new" themes being published almost on a daily basis. We have Armenian fonts on computers, including internet. We have quite an array of different Armenian books and CD-Roms for children with plenty of games in them, and they continue to multiply. We have Armenian crossword puzzles (becoming more and more sophisticated). Last time I was in Armenia I saw foreign language books (English, French etc.), mostly written by Diasporans, with Armenian themes and names, e.g. Hovannes speaks Armenian. Hripsime habite en Armenie. We have a growing number of famous Armenians who openly speak about their heritage to foreign papers and magazines. We even have Hye Forum!

 

Or is this irrelevant to what you're trying to say?

 

I don't think you can expect the word "Armenian" to ever become relevant outside of Armenian communities. This may be a sociological factor, I'm not too sure, but please don't think that American kids growing up in Holland know much about the country of their parents. In fact, many of these children hardly speak English. The only children who do are those whose parents either drill, send to English-speaking schools, or travel to English-sepaking countries on a regular basis. Moreover, many of these children/teenagers are as reluctant about getting to know their roots as Armenians are growing up isolated from Armenian communities. All this in a country where Hollywood movies, McDonald's, and Coca-Cola are more widespread than Dutch-made products and ideologies.

 

As long as they are able to find each other, form their own groups, feel comfortable in them, or feel comfortable on their own for that matter, I personally don't see the necessity for "leadership". But again, if there are those who do find this necessary, it is up to them to take that initiative.

 

I'm not too sure if I understand what you mean by "critical" mass, and what exactly you are expecting from them, however.

 

Likewise.

[Twilight Bark]

I have checked some of the software, and the best was at the very low end level of the low end children's software titles in "dominant" languages. I am refraining from calling them "pathetic" because I am sure a lot of labor of love had gone into making them, and I do appreciate whatever is available. It's just that we have to do a lot better. It is very damaging (indeed toxic) to have (much) lower expectations from things Armenian.

 

I am thinking of the evening news or the mainstream newspaper. We do not need to be more obscure than the Fiji islands in the world's consciousness. How many Armenian columnists are there in mainstream media? How about radio? TV? There is no reason for us to be not grossly over-represented in intellectual pursuits. What values are we transmitting to our kids? Make a buck and have a comfortable life? Is that "new" or "old"?

 

Yes. And when we get quoted by CNN or The Economist we have arrived.

 

I can expect the world. However, I would be ecstatic with an occasional and steady "presence" other than things that involve death, calamities, and conflicts.

 

When a culture is everywhere, it is almost the same as being absent. Similar to one's inability to smell one's own perfume after a while, while it can still be noticed by someone that walks by. By the way, I thought everyone in Holland could speak English.

 

By "leadership" I mean "inspiration". And those that are in need of leadership are almost by definition not the ones that are going to lead. While I in fact dislike the "leader" type character, and find many of its manifestations plainly annoying, I grudgingly accept that it is a very useful quality, especially when a culture lacks it so painfully. The difference between what you are "supposed" to achieve (and often a lot less) and exceeding yourself by a lot is that funny quality called "initiative" or "leadership".

 

I am not really talking about a yet another "locale" where young Armenians engage in chitchat. I mean a concentration of intelligent, modern (and proud) Armenians in the university departments, government offices, media editorial staff and the like at a level that allows them to network and be much more than the sum of the individuals. A brain does its wonder because its neurons are networked and interact. Take the same number of neurons and separate them, and you have a bunch of rather useless cells.

 

I guess I am talking about expecting things that we are somehow not "supposed" to expect.

 

Anyway, right now I am expecting myself to get back to work and make a buck.

[nairi]

You shouldn't be looking to (Western) media for that.

 

True, but I think we already have this inspiration. It's what you do with it. If leaders is not the right word, then how about Armenians who have made it? I somehow doubt we would have the position in world-chess if it wasn't for that one Armenian who showed the rest of us that it is possible for us to become champions.

 

As for TV, media, etc., it's funny you mention that, since it was an Armenian who was asked to comment on the BBC about whether "The Weakest Link" would become a success in America or not. Clearly we have many more "prominent" Armenians working behind the scenes than we think. I see what you mean though, if you say we should be in front of the camera more often instead of hiding behind it, but I'm sure that will come in time. Every time I meet young Armenians they are so vibrant, versatile and ambitious, I'm afraid we won't go extinct soon enough.

 

I'm not everyone.

 

Even if that person holds ideas that are "inhuman", such as extermination of a race?

 

I think "unconditional" is a little far-fetched, if not unrealistic. But that's a personal opinion.

[Twilight Bark]

I am not. I am wishing that "western media" had many more Armenian contributors. Too many of us value money above sucess, let alone intellectual pursuits.

 

I said "unconditional affinity", not unconditional surrender or unconditional agreement. You argue with them, fight them, or even "jail" the nutcases if necessary, but you feel bothered by it the way you are forever uncomfortable about the row you had with that mental-case aunt that won't make peace with you. As opposed to saying "good riddance". Your "empirical" behavior regarding the hatemonger does not reflect that inner conflict. But the inner discomfort is indicative of how you view your nation. It also means that, even if you give up hope on the nutcase, you still accept or make his offspring as part of your "extended family". I am in effect talking about a primal, and profound, concept of a "tribe". Unabashedly.

[Twilight Bark]

Role models are good. But we need more than role models for the collective progress. There is a subtle but significant difference between a successful person that happens to be Armenian and a successful Armenian. The former is Gary Kasparov. The transformation of him to the latter is a fictional Gary Kasparov that pulls Armenia into his personal sphere, establishes a Software Company in Armenia bearing his name, markets his hand-made brandname Chess Sets made by Armenian artisans ("from the land of Chess"), and does high-profile charity work around the world from his base in Armenia. But these things don't happen in a vacuum. Such things are more likely to happen when the successful Armenians don't feel like freak-mutant Armenians due to the absence of other equally successful Armenians "near" them. The "isolated" Armenian is much more likely to become simply a person that happens to be Armenian. So the "networking" I was talking about can be as "passive" as simply providing the successful Armenian a sense that he/she is not a mutant Armenian. So that is one way in which the "critical mass" operates.

[nairi]

Why? So we can proudly say that we are contributing to that propaganda?

 

"Too many", thus not "most". So where's the problem?

 

Got your point. Sorry for misunderstanding.

 

First of all, I think we are all people who happen to have a certain ethnic background. Secondly, I think it's unrealistic, if not sadistic, to ask of one person to do a thousand things at the same time. As if concentrating on one thing and becoming successful in that isn't enough... As for feeling like a freak-mutant, that is a personal feeling. Not every "isolated" successful Armenian (or person of any ethnic background for that matter) feels that way, as far as I know.

 

Way past bed time for me. Weltrusten, as the Dutchies would say.

[Twilight Bark]

Tolerance is very desirable. However, tolerance is also produced by indifference. We need much more than tolerance. We need compassion. We need unconditional affinity, akin to one in an extended family, which we actually are.

 

Sure. But the genital manifestation of what's in the mind is irrelevant to the discussion. That is all.

[Accelerated]

Money is power, and with enough of it comes success and fame.

[Twilight Bark]

So we can moderate and modify what comes out of it. My usual refrain about "just bypass them" (about outdated institutions) does not apply here, because Armenia or Armenians are not about to come up with their own BBC (ABC?) anytime soon. The only way to penetrate the mainstream is to join it and change it from inside.

 

"Too many" can and I think in our case does mean "most". And that is a problem.

 

We also all have lungs and kidneys in addition to "happening to be of one ethnicity or another". That does not increase our contribution to the Armenian collective. When one views oneself as "a successful person that happens to be Armenian", it is not fundamentally different from viewing oneself as "a successful person that happens to have brown hair". On the other hand, feeling like "a successful Armenian" has a whole different connotation.

 

One common trait of successful people is that they are not overwhelmed by multitasking. It is very common to see them do many things. The two traits almost always go hand in hand. They also know when and what to delegate. You wouldn't expect Kasparov to read over the legal minutiae of setting up a chess software company.

 

Feelings are always personal. And they all ultimately result from our social context.

 

As always, when talking about humans (even many other animal species), we are not talking about 100% applicability, or absolute certainty. We are talking about likelihoods. Just because my chain-smoking uncle lived to be 100 years old does not make smoking harmless.

 

I hope you had a good rest.

[Twilight Bark]

Pursuing money for attaining power is not the same as pursuing money to buy a BMW and crow to your equally banal Armenian neighbor. I would, with some equivocation, include "lust for power" in the "intellectual activity" category for the purposes of this discussion. It has to do with how banal your goals in life are.

[Accelerated]

Hmmm, this is a moot point. To a small extent owning a BMW is power . The power to get from point A to B in privacy, luxury and some class etc. (or whatever the resident society might percieve the ownership of a BMW may bring). Though in the greater scheme of things, I agree with you.

 

[ January 10, 2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Accelerated ]

[Twilight Bark]

I was not talking about the power to be a snob . I was talking about real, serious "movers and shakers" kind of power.

 

Also, to address what you said earlier, success does not come from money. Money comes from success. However, whether you chase money or success has profound importance in determining where you end up at the end. Note that this is not to say that money-chasers don't find some of what they are looking for. Nevertheless, the previous statement applies.