Freedom vs Traditions

[Guest]

Artur: I think for now it's enough. Silamita you are free to ask for more if you want.

Sulamita: It's the quality not the quantity dear He he he... By the way, can you please spell "my name" corectly? Its Sulamita NOT Silamita Thanx.

 

Artur: P.S. Aneta, Gayane, you know i was kidding about driving cars, right : )))

Sulamita: You mean you are THAT open minded? He he he ... Next thing you know they will be riding motorcycles

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Sulamita (edited November 15, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sulamita:
Artur: I think for now it's enough. Silamita you are free to ask for more if you want.
Sulamita: It's the quality not the quantity dear He he he... By the way, can you please spell "my name" corectly? Its Sulamita NOT Silamita Thanx.

Artur: P.S. Aneta, Gayane, you know i was kidding about driving cars, right : )))
Sulamita: You mean you are THAT open minded? He he he ... Next thing you know they will be riding motorcycles


[This message has been edited by Sulamita (edited November 15, 2000).]

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S-U-L-A-M-I-T-A, you have a good sence of humour.

I think, you picture Armenian Strict family as army, but it is not. When i was a kid, i was very courious guy and asked a lot of questions and wanted answers, my parents always tried to explain me in good matter, so i understand. I think only totally psycho parents can talk with children like that.

About respect: There is a sying in Russian: If they afraid of you, then they respect you. Respect through fear is another type of respect. They know your power and strenth they know that you are more powerful than them, and they start respecting you for that, and doing your orders etc. But i guess this kind of respect doesn't really appear in western countries.


Artur

P.S. Aneta, Are you familiar with Theory X and Theory Y management styles? If yes, then you should know that Theory X is based on fear.

[This message has been edited by Artur (edited November 15, 2000).]

[Guest]

lol...i was typing furiously for about half an hour, then stared blankly at the screen for another full hour, then deleted everything i had written, so here we are...

you don't hear anything i say...so what's the use of saying anything in the first place?... the only paranoid person here is you, artur jan...etkan ban

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sulamita:
One last comment. So many armenian parents who use the term "BECAUSE YOU ARE ARMENIAN" like a little electrical shocker to discipline their children.

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Even though my grandparents were understanding and not Nazis about it, I think this is exactly what my mom rebelled against. My mom wanted to be American more than anything else.

It all began in kindergarten when she showed up only really knowing Armenian--the teacher pinned a note on her saying, "Please teach this girl English." Los Angeles teachers in the 1940's weren't what they are today (Steve, where were you??? ).

Aneta, I like your approach with your sister. I will use that with my son. I know I am missing out on alot by not knowing the language (particularly the written language).

Artur, the more of your posts I read, I'm catching glimpses that are indicating you are more tolerant than you initially appear. I think you're somewhat pulling our legs on some of it.


[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 16, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pilafhead:


Aneta, I like your approach with your sister. I will use that with my son. I know I am missing out on alot by not knowing the language (particularly the written language).


[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 16, 2000).]

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How does your son feel about learning the language now? I remeber you saying once that he was very keen on YOU learning! (by the way, what is a WASP??)

As for that nasty teacher, we all remember stories about some like THAT, dont we?

I am going to let you all into a funny little secret now. What I was about twelve, I thought about when I told my classmates before that I was armenian, and they just said, "oh, it's where that earthquake was, innit?" so I reaslised I didnt know much about my roots! I asked my mum and bless her, she did'nt know much either, so she said "it's in Russia" and I thought "oh! I'm russian and I thought they read/written/spoke russian so I told my classmates I was Russian and planned to learn Russian when I left school! (!!!!!!) probably what she thought was that it used to be a part of the USSR and there is a Russian part and an Asian part, Am I right? Anyway I was cross when I found that out but now I find that a bit funny. I said "it aint got nothing to do with Russia!" and she said "oh"

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gayane:


lol...i was typing furiously for about half an hour, then stared blankly at the screen for another full hour, then deleted everything i had written, so here we are...
you don't hear anything i say...so what's the use of saying anything in the first place?... the only paranoid person here is you, artur jan...etkan ban

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Gayanne my jan!
They do listen! Especially Artur,our little tulip tree. but what I think he's TRYING to say is that he agrees with you and what you say has an effect on him , but he tries to cover up by joking about and trying to annoy us to say more! But he aint fooling me!

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kazza:
Gayanne my jan!
They do listen! Especially Artur,our little tulip tree. but he tries to cover up by joking about and trying to annoy us to say more! But he aint fooling me!

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What the hell that supposed to mean? Tulip tree?
Gayane, paranoid? :) No i am cool to be honest. It were you who jumped to this forum and started telling about free of choice and and that women can earn by themselves etc. Every time there is a topic or discussion about man being higher than woman, paying for woman etc. you reply. Isn't this true? The topic traditions vs freedom wasn't raised by me. I just picked up and thought we can make some discussion, but it was you who opened topic such as International Women Legue. So think about it. I do not care what other people think or say, neither I care how you are grown in your family, i know one thing my family will be as it is for future generations. It is just forum.
Take it easy girl, the life is beautiful, isn't it? I don't want you to be mad at me or something. Plus if you want i will not discuss this topic again.

Artur


[This message has been edited by Artur (edited November 16, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gayane:


lol...i was typing furiously for about half an hour, then stared blankly at the screen for another full hour, then deleted everything i had written, so here we are...

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In the round 3 at 2 min 32 second, winning in the way of technical knock out. And He is the new undesputed, undefeated AT champion of the Woooooorrrld, Artur Asatryan.
Pilaf, I have just watched the Tyson lateset fight, it was good. Third round, technical knock out.

::))))))))))

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kazza:
How does your son feel about learning the language now? I remeber you saying once that he was very keen on YOU learning! (by the way, what is a WASP??)

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He is just learning English phonetics right now. His teacher is also throwing in some Spanish. I don't want to confuse him with yet another language right now.

No, you must have misunderstood. I want to learn with him. He hasn't a clue about being Armenian or the language. I'm keeping it this way for now because he has no conception of different races. To him, people look different, just like shoes or shirts look different.

A WASP is a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

[Guest]

Changes that Armenian Women and Men would like to see in Each Other

 

Compiled by Dér Stépanos Dingilian, Ph. D.

 

 

Section II

 

Changes Armenian Women would like to see in Armenian Men

 

The Armenian women (from here on generally ‘women’) spoke passionately of the need for Armenian men (from here on ‘men’) to review their role as soul mates, within their family and even within the community. The issues that the women raised is given by a numeral plus the letter ‘W.’ The response and the points made to a related issue by the men is given in the next section with the same numeral plus the letter ‘M.’

 

1W. “Armenian men need to see the women as equal ‘partners’ in important decisions that affect the whole family,” said a young pharmacist. A few stated that: “Some Armenian men think that just because they are the ‘head’ of the household, they

have a free reign in all decisions.” It was interesting that the women with biblical insight recognized that the root of such

one-sided decision-making by the male is not supported by the teachings of the Bible.

 

2W. “The ‘traditional approach’ to marriage advocated by some men places a great deal of pressure on us to care for his next-of-kin, which takes away from the focus on our relationship and family,” said a schoolteacher. It is an Armenian tradition

where the parents tend to live with their son. This places a significant pressure on the son’s wife (hars). Not only is there the

normal communication issues between wife and in-laws, but also the additional pressure of caring for the in-laws as they grow older. This was most burdensome for the women who also worked outside of the home.

 

3W. “Armenian men leave all the family’s home chores up to us,” was a very common statement. Many pointed out that the

men in the dominant US culture seem to be more supportive and participating in everything from child-raising to tasks around

the house, in comparison to the Armenian men. Again, the women who have to work outside the home are most sensitive to

this issue.

 

4W. “Marriage is a journey that must be taken together. Men and women must fall in love and continue to maintain that

loving relationship,” a divorced woman explained. In general, it was the women’s view that once Armenian men marry, it seems

that they no longer have the need to maintain and build upon their relationship. They no longer make an effort and show

compassion and caring as they did prior to marriage.

 

5W. “Men do not like talking about issues that are important to them; they hold-in their feelings and anxieties,” said a mother of three. Armenian men are viewed by the women as less able and versed in discussing feelings than men of the dominant US

culture.

 

6W. “Everything seems to be black or white, agree or disagree, my way or yours!” observed a young woman in a frustrated

tone. “When disagreements or arguments arise, Armenian men are not likely to discuss the issues in a reconciling and

cooperative manner” added another. (Frankly the discussion on this subject did not progress very far. Some became very

emotional while others spoke in terms of absolutes: “This is how it is and it won’t change!”)

 

7W. This point can be summarized by the comment of one person: “Armenian men don’t know what they want so they ask for

everything from us. On the one hand they want us to be ‘graceful’ (shnorhalee) and act ‘dignified’ (badvov) as ‘an Armenian

woman should.’ But at the same time they expect us to be flirting and acting ‘modern’ as some dominant culture women do.

This puts us in a double jeopardy: If we act ‘traditional’ then we are considered backward, too dependent and not progressed

enough. On the other hand, if we act more open and forward, then we are considered not ‘dignified’ and ‘graceful’ as women.

This is totally unrealistic and confusing!”

 

8W. “Men don’t seem to realize that the women want some challenges in life outside of the home which they can call ‘their

own’” stated both married as well as single women. A professional woman put it this way: “It is OK to be at home and take

care of the family. But today we are educated and exposed to numerous cultural, educational and career opportunities. We

cannot be ‘caged up’ physically, emotionally or mentally and told “you can’t go here or there by yourself!” After all, this is the

twenty first century!”

 

* * * * *

 

AND BECAUSE I'M NOT BIASED,

 

Section III

Changes Armenian Men would like to see in Armenian Women

 

Here are some of the concerns of the Armenian men.

 

1M. Armenian men pointed out that Armenian women like to be pampered and guided, instead of acting more proactively as

women of the dominant US culture. One complained: “The women want all the luxuries of a traditional relationship and

wedding, but they don’t want the responsibility and necessary conduct that accompanies that traditional way of life.” This created a dichotomy for them: If the men are seen as leading the relationship then they are considered heavy handed. If they do not act proactively, then they are seen as not having the courage to make tough decisions. A professional stated: “I just can’t figure out what they want!”

 

2M. The men seemed to think that the Armenian women tend to pull the husband (or a future husband) towards their side of

the family. “All she was taking about is her family and how we should take care of them! What about our family and children?

Who will take care of them? After all, our family is our first responsibility,” complained a divorced Armenian male professional.

 

3M. Armenian men observed that they were taking care of a greater number of chores outside of the home which men of the

dominant culture did not have to. This was because the Armenian women did not want to take on such responsibilities,

especially where arguments and confrontations were involved. This left the men with less time to take care of family chores inside the home.

 

4M. Armenian men pointed out that Armenian women generally do not try to take care of themselves after not only marriage,

but even after the engagement. After the initial meeting, the men seemed to think that the pressure is placed upon them as men

to continuously charm and please the women. Furthermore, the men thought that the women are very easily influenced by the

latest “talk show fads.” In the opinion of some men, this placed all sorts of new and unreasonable demands and pressures upon

their relationship.

 

5M. Armenian men considered themselves as ‘doers’ rather than ‘talkers.’ They emphasized the greater need to act and

resolve a situation rather than to talk about it. “By the time other men have decided how to talk about an issue, we have already taken action and resolved it. If you got to do it than just do it!,” stated a father of two. They did not feel it is important to concern the women with minor issues that can be resolved. If they shared some worries with the women, they were afraid that the women would worry unnecessarily.

 

6M. Armenian men felt that there are certain relationship and family issues that are not negotiable. However, they pointed out

that women become very emotional about certain subjects and thus make discussions with them impossible.

 

7M. Just as Armenian women seemed to be frustrated by Armenian men, likewise the Armenian men seemed to be frustrated

by Armenian women. A number of men pointed out: “Armenian women like to play ‘hard-to-get’ with Armenian men. It seems

that if you are an Armenian male, you have to be questioned, scrutinized and even interrogated about your income, status,

family and future. On the other hand, the same women go out with males of the dominant US culture without subjecting them to

the same level of scrutiny. It is as though we are held up to a higher standard and placed under greater pressure because we are

Armenian men.”

 

8Ma. The need for the Armenian women to work outside of the home seemed plausible to Armenian men. In fact many

women already do. The issue on the part of men seemed to center on the need for the women to focus their effort on taking

care of the family. “Armenian women in this country don’t seem to take their child nurturing role seriously,” is the consensus

among some Armenian men. A number of them claimed: “The women of previous generations were more willing to take upon themselves the challenge of nurturing and raising their children. Today’s women seem to be more preoccupied with their appearance and social status.”

 

8Mb. In private, some men confided of a difficult issue with immigrant families. When a family arrives in the US, the males have to work at whatever positions are available just to take care of the family needs. This gives the women a greater opportunity and luxury to study the language and further their education. However, “Once she completed her education, she got a higher

paying position than mine, and suddenly, I am no longer ‘good enough’ or ‘cultured enough’ for her,” explained a divorced man

with three children.

 

* * * * *

 

Gayane's comment: I have some serious issues with both what the women said and with what the men said. But first: opinions???

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gayane:
But first: opinions???

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Why do men or women want to change the other? It's verrrry simple...don't date or marry someone who isn't what you want. The more progressive Armenian women need to find the progressive Armenian men. Traditional types marry traditional types.

Why should it matter what the other 5 million Armenian men are like if you've found the one for you? All other women in the world could be ugly-lazy-cheating-Bible-thumping-turkish-crack-whores, as long as my wife is not.

If you can't find an Armenian man or woman that is what you want, then there's your answer: an Armenian mate is not for you. Part of what makes Armenians "Armenian" are the things listed in the survey.

Makes me so glad to be beyond all this in my life. Whatta headache!!




[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 16, 2000).]

[Guest]

Because, Mikey, "no man is an island onto himself"

[Guest]

Pilaf, If your son's teacher is teaching Spanish at a separate time, there is no problem, studies have shown that young children can learn languages faster, and with no confusion, if it is done correctly. But if the teacher is teaching English phonics then mixes it with Spanish, this can be very detrimental!

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Artur:
About respect: There is a sying in Russian: If they afraid of you, then they respect you. Respect through fear is another type of respect. They know your power and strenth they know that you are more powerful than them, and they start respecting you for that, and doing your orders etc. But i guess this kind of respect doesn't really appear in western countries.

[This message has been edited by Artur (edited November 15, 2000).]

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That is not the kind of respect I want people to have for me

Artur Asatryan I think your fear of the WEST is much more intense than what the soviets were trying to breed into the minds of young "komeritakanner" with their anti-US propaganda. They got to ya ha?

From time to time you need to remind yourself that the WEST is not all evil ... all that is wrong with the world cannot be blamed on the WEST.

A

PS. So, does your fear of the west lead you to respect it?



[This message has been edited by Sulamita (edited November 16, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Half Breed:
Pilaf, If your son's teacher is teaching Spanish at a separate time, there is no problem, studies have shown that young children can learn languages faster, and with no confusion, if it is done correctly.

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He's learning English phonics and they are learning a few words in Spanish (no Spanish phonics). He made a small book with a "calabasa" and a "fantasma" on one page and a "bruja" on another (guess what holiday that was for? ). It's fun- every night at bedtime I have to make up a new story staring the pumpkin, ghost and witch.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kazza:
Just off the subject why don't you bring him on the forum one day with his own little password and he can type us a little message?

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As the Good Book says, "Ask and ye shall receive. Seek and ye shall find." Go the humor section.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sulamita:
That is not the kind of respect I want people to have for me

Artur Asatryan I think your fear of the WEST is much more intense than what the soviets were trying to breed into the minds of young "komeritakanner" with their anti-US propaganda. They got to ya ha?

From time to time you need to remind yourself that the WEST is not all evil ... all that is wrong with the world cannot be blamed on the WEST.

A

PS. So, does your fear of the west lead you to respect it?

[This message has been edited by Sulamita (edited November 16, 2000).]

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Fear of the West??? I don't know what they tried.
To be honest West compare to Russia, i said compare to Russia, is more civilised and more human. In England for exmple, people smile every time they see you, they never think about doing bad to you etc. From this point of view, i like it. When i came to England first time, i was amazied how people you don't even know worry about you and want to help you. I guess it is pretty much the same in the US, but more taugher.

Artur

P.S. In this life i am not afraid of anybody, but GOD. :)) Oh yeah, and my father.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pilafhead:
As the Good Book says, "Ask and ye shall receive. Seek and ye shall find." Go the humor section.

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Pilaf, bro, you are right raise your kid, teach him Armenian, teach him our history. I think the best age for kids is to learn language now. Kids catch the language very fast.

God bless You and your Son.

[Guest]

I want to send my son to Saturday Armenian school in a few years. I wanna go, too! Ever see that Adam Sandler movie, "Happy Gilmore" where he's in kindergarten or whatever it is? That'll be me with my son and 20 other Armenian children.

 

"OK children..Oh and you Mr. D, ready? Repeat after me: "meg", "yergoo", "yerek",..."

[Guest]

By the way whats your son's name?

[Guest]

Brady -- not too Armenian, eh? My wife wasn't too keen on any boy's Armenian ones and neither was my mom. I liked Garabed (and Garabed/Charles are family names), but we didn't want odar kids calling him "Gara-bage". I still may end up calling him Garo as a nickname. My uncle is Garo and my grandpa was Charles.

 

If we had a girl it was maybe going to be "Ani".

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gayane:
Because, Mikey, "no man is an island onto himself"

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Ya lost me, Shamiram.

Doesn't every shoe have a foot? You don't want to fit all the feet--just one.

[Guest]

That's good! I've even forgotten how old he is, He aint even old enough to learn all these languages!

What I meant wasnt about what people look like, heck even EVERYBODY looks different from each other! But the basic principle which you just said was the most sound one that you can have! It's the way the world should be really, isn't it?

What I meant was , he is gonna ask one day and get curious (just like i did and my little sister will one day!) as for my brother I have NO idea about HIS curiosty or questions. To tell the absolute truth, he is my brother and I love him but I think he is a bit screwed up in some respects and he gets on my nerves sometimes the way he sees life.

 

Just off the subject why don't you bring him on the forum one day with his own little password and he can type us a little message?

[Guest]

Shrugging shoulders....

[Guest]

I love Forum at Armenia.ru!!!

 

Girls, Go there and see what armenian girls like! They don't even talk about going to bars etc.

Their reaction about meeting an Armenian guy on internet was like: we are more proud and respected girls to meet a guy through internet. About clubs: I am not going to the places where guys stare at me.