Freedom vs Traditions

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sagh mer problemner@ steghitsa sksvum....

 

lav egheg

davit

 

 

[This message has been edited by davit (edited November 06, 2000).]

 

[This message has been edited by davit (edited November 06, 2000).]

[Guest]

Davit jan, yes chgitem te du vortek es aprum buyts sagh achkarov el huyer@ irenz popogutyunnern en unenum. Nuynisk Hayastanum el uch me ban nuyn chi. Yes Americayum em aprum buyts kapers micht puhum em Yerevani het. Shat tsavali a,buyts the uchinch ches carog anel. Srtit motik mi @nduni. Edgar

[Guest]

Let me continue this topic and at the same time have a reply to ArmenianCleopatra's topic of Armenian Women Legue.

 

Consiquances of Freedom:

 

Generally it leads to immoral society.

 

1. Disrespect to Elders. E.g. Kids are free to do anything, one day, parents say NO, their reaction: Dad i am free person, i can do anything i want. As follows Bad words etc. directed to parents.

 

2. Unstable Family. e.g. If women are free and their is some kind of equality between husband and wife, consequance of this is too much arguing over some issues, if it goes on and on. Final Stage is divorce.

 

3. Girls are free to do what they want, and this will lead to "dating" before marriage. I don't know what kind of loser you have to be to merry a girl, that already been with someone. Girls lose their values.

 

4. Sexual immoralities will prevent. As there is a freedom and kids are not grown in strict families, this will have bad consequances of prostitution, gays, lesbians etc. etc.

 

5. Matter of fact, family ties will be lost, brothers will not support sisters or brothers and parents.

 

 

I can continue this list for ever and ever.

 

Everything freedom lead to is immoral and against holy book of Bible.

 

 

Artur

[Guest]

Artur, your conservatism borders on fear of the world. I don't mean that as a slam, but as an honest observation.

 

Children should not be free to do whatver they want; women however, should be.

 

If anything, men should not be free---they have lower morals than women, and are the cause of 95% of the world's problems (drinking, drugs, abuse, violence, etc.). Show me a screwed up woman with low morals, and I show you the man that caused it. If you really want a moralistic society, let women run it.

 

As an example, go to any church and count the women vs. men.

[Guest]

I have a new knight in shining armor

[Guest]

Ya see Artur, now that's how you get into a woman's pants! JUST KIDDING, GAYANE (you know that)!

[Guest]

Artur's version of the world:

 

1. Parents CONTROL their children

2. Husbands CONTROL their wives

3. Guy CONTROLS girl

4. Strict social CONTROL

***notice a pattern here??

5. Gloom and doom for everyone.

 

Gayane's version of the world

 

1. DIALOGUE between parents and children

2. DIALOGUE between husbands and wives

3. DIALOGUE in dating

4. DIALOGUE, UNDERSTANDING, TOLERANCE

***notice the pattern here??

5. GOOD COMMUNICATION leads to a better world.

 

Now, Artur, I have a question for you (and feel free to rant and rave and swear and curse and break furniture in your room, just don't do it online, capish?). My question is: Why are you so insecure? Why are guys like you so insecure? Why are you threatened by a woman's independence and intelligence and ability to speak her mind? What about communication don't you like? What about dialogue don't you understand? Why are you so incapable of handling the fact that there are women as intelligent as you if not more intelligent than you? Why do you feel compelled to keep a woman in chains to assert your manhood? Why are you so intollerant of all things different? When was the last time you read a word of the Bible? And finally, why don't you practice what you preach?

 

(ok, make that ten questions )

 

I'm asking these as the "emancipated" Gayane, yes, but I'm also asking as a psychologist. Help me understand this phenomenon, please.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pilafhead:
Ya see Artur, now that's how you get into a woman's pants! JUST KIDDING, GAYANE (you know that)!

---

LOL!!! I know, I know

[Guest]

:))

I aspected all reactions that you listed here.

 

I am answering evey question you posted:

 

Q. Why are you so insecure? Why are guys like you so insecure?

A. You've got the wrong image, none of us insecure.

 

Q. Why are you threatened by a woman's independence and intelligence and ability to speak her mind?

A. None threatened, again you have a wrong image.

 

Q. What about dialogue don't you understand?

A. Dialogue between Parents and Children? There can't be dialogue, its either you listen to your parents and agree what they say or you agrue. Eveything comes to the point that Elders are more wise than you, and children make mistakes in life not listining them. It's the Fact! Very old tradition.

 

Q. Why are you so incapable of handling the fact that there are women as intelligent as you if not more intelligent than you?

A. Did i say anything about that? There are women that way more intelegen than some men. But that's not the point

 

Q. Why do you feel compelled to keep a woman in chains to assert your manhood?

A. Again you'got the wrong image. Women get more respect if they submit themself to husband, and husband will treat her like a queen, and vice versa.

 

 

Q. When was the last time you read a word of the Bible?

A. About One month ago.

 

Q. And finally, why don't you practice what you preach?

A. I think all my views are holy. If not then tell me where i am wrong.

 

 

With respect

Artur

[Guest]

Time to whisper Aneta's little prayer, adding only "god give me the strength to argue with this man"

[Guest]

I always point to the millions of Turks who willingly obeyed their elders in murdering our people. Maybe they should have disobeyed them. With Artur's logic, they did exactly what they should have. Artur, you have an very black and white extremist view. Yes, I don't like the "if it feels good do it" attitude in the west. But this idea that a person should just blindly follow their elders no matter what, is ridiculous, especially when a person reaches a certain age.

[Guest]

Since I have some free time on my hands (ts ts ts) ... I might as well do this

 

Artur: Consiquances of Freedom: Generally it leads to immoral society.

Sulamita: Show me a "moral" society or at least define it.

 

Artur: 1. Disrespect to Elders. E.g. Kids are free to do anything, one day, parents say NO, their reaction: Dad i am free person, i can do anything i want. As follows Bad words etc. directed to parents.

Sulamita: So, it is disrespectful to have a mind of your own ?!?!?! Bad words directed at parents? Can you be more clear?

 

Artur: 2. Unstable Family. e.g. If women are free and their is some kind of equality between husband and wife, consequance of this is too much arguing over some issues, if it goes on and on. Final Stage is divorce.

Sulamita: Is there equality in most armenian families? Why is there so much arguing and violence?

 

Artur: 3. Girls are free to do what they want, and this will lead to "dating" before marriage. I don't know what kind of loser you have to be to merry a girl, that already been with someone. Girls lose their values.

Sulamita: Why did you put dating in parantases? How did that Russian saying go? Every person interpretes the world to the degree of his/her immorality? (Excuse my bad translation) You sure have a lousy way of determining a girl's value

 

Artur: 4. Sexual immoralities will prevent. As there is a freedom and kids are not grown in strict families, this will have bad consequances of prostitution, gays, lesbians etc. etc.

Sulamita: There are no prostitutes, gays or lesbians in strict societies? Think again !!!

 

Artur: 5. Matter of fact, family ties will be lost, brothers will not support sisters or brothers and parents.

Sulamita: Can you explain the logic here?

 

Artur: I can continue this list for ever and ever.

Sulamita: There isn't much to continue. You are being redundant.

 

Artur: Everything freedom lead to is immoral and against holy book of Bible.

Sulamita: I will never ceise to be amazed at the 1,895,965 ways the Bible is interpreted every day. I guess that is why it is one of the (if not THE) most read books in the world.

 

Sulamita

 

(see next posting)

 

[This message has been edited by Sulamita (edited November 15, 2000).]

 

[This message has been edited by Sulamita (edited November 15, 2000).]

[Guest]

Artur: Dialogue between Parents and Children? There can't be dialogue, its either you listen to your parents and agree what they say or you agrue. Eveything comes to the point that Elders are more wise than you, and children make mistakes in life not listining them. It's the Fact! Very old tradition.

 

Sulamita: Yes, a dialogue between parents and children. What a concept ha ? Look at you - you either listen (akanjerd kaxats) or you argue (God forbid). Is everything so black and white to you? Sorry to burst your bubble Artur, but the elders are NOT always more wise. They are human and they too make wrong judgements from time to time. And YES they even give bad advise. It does not make them any less deserving of respect. And the children who are more independent by nature are not doomed - they will find their way in life, better than those who depend on their parents too much for advise and guidance.

 

As a side note - don't ever every say "It's the Fact!!!" You only sound naive.

 

My point of view: Children should not FEAR their parents (or elders) but should RESPECT them. Just think for a moment - who are you more willing to beleive and cooperate with? someone who only arises FEAR in you or RESPECT? think of all those employers you have had - did you ever RESPECT the losers that tried to intimidate you with their authority?

 

To Be Continued

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Sulamita (edited November 15, 2000).]

[Guest]

hishumeg che vontser akrav@ gamak@ yan-yan

talov mangali yani siramarga...?

 

hima meng ed akravneng

 

lav egheg davit

 

 

------------------

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by davit (edited January 17, 2001).]

[Guest]

Pheww... Its gonna be a tagh job to answerr all your girl's questions. Anyway lets do it. Lets make some MJ style essay.

 

Silamita: Show me a "moral" society or at least define it.

Artur: Everything that against my views are way of immoral socity. Kids don't respect elders, sexual immoralities etc etc. Armenia 10 years ago, very good example for you.

 

Sulamita: So, it is disrespectful to have a mind of your own ?!?!?! Bad words directed at parents? Can you be more clear?

Artur: Again you have wrong image, kids are not controled by parents. More clear: F*** off, mum )

 

Sulamita: Why did you put dating in parantases?

Artur: dating is having man before husband. Of course for you its normal. No comment on your western mentality... I'll keep my reaction to myself. Otheerwise... never mind.

 

Sulamita: There are no prostitutes, gays or lesbians in strict societies? Think again !!!

Artur: E.g. Armenia 20 years ago, did we have a phrase such as Armenian hooker? I think if we did then you could count them on finguers.

 

Sulamita: There isn't much to continue. You are being redundant.

Artur: Do you want me continue? Next posting will be.

 

Sulamita: about bible.

Artur: All my ideas that husband should be commited to man, and man should be a host, kids should respect elders etc. are holy. If you don't believe i can give you parts from Bible, no problem.

 

Sulamita: Elders are not always wise.

Artur: see thats the cionsequence of freedom, elders for you in the same level as you. No comment on that.

 

Sulamita: Dont say It's the fact

Artur: It is the fact that it's the oldest tradition. I think it is.

 

Sulamita: Children should not FEAR their parents (or elders) but should RESPECT them

Artur: As you started talking in business term, Fear and Respect are very close. Respect through Fear is a good one and the fact more productive (in business, in short term usually). Fear to father for exmple is good one. You are afraid that if you do something wrong, father will put shame on you, not about bitting you or something like that! In my family for generations elders never beat children.

 

I think I've answered all your questions.

 

To be continued :))

 

[This message has been edited by Artur (edited November 15, 2000).]

[Guest]

Yo yo. We reached the point when 2 Armenian guys argue with 2 Armenian girls. hmmm

But i guess it's ok, cos' it is more like 2 Armenian guys argueing with western girls. Yes so lets continue ):)

 

)

Artur

[Guest]

Thank you, Aneta jan

 

Davit, a word of advice: you'd make MUCH more sense if you spoke in coherent, tangible, grammatically correct sentences. Even Artur can do that As it is I won't address any of your points except the one about reading Paul's gospel: I intend to. Let's leave it at that.

 

Artur, I'd just like to clarify something. You have this "wrong image" (as you would say) of western girls. Who do you think we are? Do you think we walk around disrespecting our parents by saying "f*** off, mom"???????? Do you think we walk around having wild sex with every second guy we meet 24/7?????? Do you think everyone in a western society is a lesbian or a whore??????

 

Don't you dare speak to me about respect. If I didn't have respect for my parents I'd be graduating from Berkeley now, not UCLA, or pursuing other dreams the realization of which they were against. But that's irrelevant. The point is, I think Armenian kids in western societies (once they reach a certain age) have much MORE respect for their parents than kids in Armenia do. We don't take our parents for granted nor do we take the relationship with them for granted. There are so many factors working against that relationship already, I for one wouldn't do anything to lose that.

 

Also, I'd like to direct you to my now ancient postings about progress and its impediments, mainly tradition. Think about it: if every time someone wanted to invent something new, propose a new idea, a new way of thinking about the world someone else got up and said "you can't do that, that's against tradition" and that new idea died right there, where would we be now? Perhaps we'd still think the Earth is the center of the universe, or maybe we'd still have slaves, or who knows, we might even live in caves because having a house is too UNconventional. And you know something else, Artur jan: if it wasn't for progress you wouldn't have the opportunity to study in England or drive that fancy car of yours--why progress here?--because if it wasn't for progress no high browed Brit would allow the infiltration of his universities by some barbarians called Armenians. So, my friend, as far as you're concerned, progress is a VERY good thing, so if I were you I'd raise a glass to the goddess of progress next time I'm having dinner.

 

That's all for now, you're lucky I have to go to class

 

Gayane

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Half Breed:
I always point to the millions of Turks who willingly obeyed their elders in murdering our people. Maybe they should have disobeyed them. With Artur's logic, they did exactly what they should have. Artur, you have an very black and white extremist view. Yes, I don't like the "if it feels good do it" attitude in the west. But this idea that a person should just blindly follow their elders no matter what, is ridiculous, especially when a person reaches a certain age.

---

Steve, axper, you have the wrong image, too. I didn't mean that kids are controlled by parents. Kids make the decisions by themself, but when the moment comes, and you ask you dad, i think their word should be a rule. That's what i mean. Of course when you are old, like 19-20, parents realise that you are man and you responsible for your actions. I think this helps you to understand.

Gayane, you give up, ha? :) kiddin' Praying won't help:)) God's rules are on my side though ) lol.


Artur

[Guest]

I have to agree with most of Artur's points. I believe in the old way's, but women must have more power.... wait, women do have power.. just look at all my friends, whipped bastards

 

But, Artur is right. Fathers must be strict with their children, not control, but strict. I mean, my dad is very strict, but I still mananged to pull off some dumb $h!t that could've gotten me in lots of trouble. There are few things I hate more than a promiscuous woman. I don't want to go where another guy has been.

 

In general, I do agree with Artur. Tolerance can only go so far, and certain aspects of society are simply intolerable.

 

Many religious people come across as intolerant and hateful... I know I do often, when I'm really not.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gayane:


Thank you, Aneta jan


Artur, I'd just like to clarify something. You have this "wrong image" (as you would say) of western girls.

The point is, I think Armenian kids in western societies (once they reach a certain age) have much MORE respect for their parents than kids in Armenia do.

Also, I'd like to direct you to my now ancient postings about progress

Gayane

---

)
First of all, take it easy girl.
Wrong Image: I've been to many European countries, I've stadied in England for about 2 years.

About Respect: Are you? I think you should visit Armenia more often. No comments.

Progress: ??? I think you are a bit confused about it. I think you have the wrong image about traditions. Traditional way is not a prison of life. And also, what the hell my father's business got to do with traditions? My family is very strict about that, but business is separate. I think there is no logic here.

Gayane, take it easy, I know the girls like you get paranoied thinking that some man will work and earn money for you. What is the problem here???? It is the way of respect, s you will grow kids, and be in kitchen :) I think for you it is the heaven, when Man takes on him the dirty part called business, while you raise the best creatures in the world called children, and make sure when they come home there is a food on the table and their clothes are clean. You know how much I love my mother for what she did for me, she dedicated her life for us. But thats not the point, the point is that it is no way disrespect when woman stats at home, while man works.

You like, business terms, then i guess you know, when one person takes one part of the main business and another the other part. They result is more efficient. So, it's pretty much the same in the family.

Take care, and take it easy.


Arturian

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Artur:
I didn't mean that kids are controlled by parents. Kids make the decisions by themself, but when the moment comes, and you ask you dad, i think their word should be a rule.

---

I'm with you on this one. I'll listen to my son's point of view, but I'm not up for negotiation.

I agree with Gayane, Aneta and Steve that adults aren't perfect, but still when it comes down to it, the parents have to be the authority. The beauty of a two parent household is two adults who complement each other's strengths and weaknesses. For example, I'm pretty liberal with respect to drinking and drugs but my wife is not--together when my son is the right age we can give him a balanced, real world lecture about the subject.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Artur:
But thats not the point, the point is that it is no way disrespect when woman stays at home, while man works.

---

See now this is fine--you are just arguing for traditional roles. Couldn't the husband and wife still be equal in this case?

My wife and I have discussed her staying home while I work, but we ended up deciding on her working part-time. She liked the mix of being both mommy and herself. Believe me, she's the greatest wife and mother in the world, but it's good for her and my son if she works 20 hours a week while he learns and plays at day care.

Most likely, when my son starts school she will stay home in order to be there everyday when he gets home. She will still be my equal. Now before the women around here question me for making her give up her career, it's an economic decision--we can comfortably live on my income, but not hers.

[Guest]

One other thing: Artur, compared to my Idalatsi dad, you're liberal! Really. So despite your views, you could still end up with a liberal son like me!

 

(don't worry, he didn't raise me).

[Guest]

Artur, I don't know about in Armenia, but here in the Good ole US of A, a woman staying home to watch the kids is a fantasy, due to $$$!

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sulamita:

Artur: 5. Matter of fact, family ties will be lost, brothers will not support sisters or brothers and parents.
Sulamita: Can you explain the logic here?

Artur: I can continue this list for ever and ever.
Sulamita: There isn't much to continue. You are being redundant.

---

1. As youngers disrespect elders, the ties between them can be lost.

Another list :

6. Women, acting free, taking drugs smoking sigarets etc. harming not only their body but their kids' health. In strict families, women who smoke do not deserve any respect.
7. Religion loses its strength and power.
8. Jerry Springer show becomes reality :) I think it is the best way to explain
9. Women are treated in the way of having fun. Disrespect to women is the consequence.
10. Women start driving cars.

I think for now it's enough. Silamita you are free to ask for more if you want.

P.S. Aneta, Gayane, you know i was kidding about driving cars, right :)))

[Guest]

Artur: I think I've answered all your questions.

Sulamita: Well, you have tried and ended up repeating yourself but that's fine - you are forgiven

 

Artur: As you started talking in business term, Fear and Respect are very close. Respect through Fear is a good one and the fact more productive (in business, in short term usually). Fear to father for exmple is good one. You are afraid that if you do something wrong, father will put shame on you, not about bitting you or something like that! In my family for generations elders never beat children.

Sulamita: Actually I was not talking in business terms? Since when did RESPECT and FEAR become business terms? And NO they are not very close Fear does not breed Respect, only hatered and more fear. And Respect does not breed Fear. Right? Right !!! I don't know about you, but I have done more good out of Respect for people than Fear. See Fear will only get you so far. At one point you are going to throw your hands up in the air and rebell. We are not savages - Fear can't drive us. I think that was one of the reasons we came out of the caves.

 

Sidenote: I remember listening to a lecture on TV given by this armenian psychologist (Yervand ????????). He has always amazed me with his in-debt knowledge of child psychology. People were calling in with all different types of questions and I remember him saying something like this -

 

There is a tendency amongst Armenian parents to give orders to children and expec them to follow those orders without every questioning them. When asked - "Why daddy?" or "But why mommy?" they are snapped at with "Because I said so !!! Who do you think you are asking me such questions. Isn't my word good enough for you?" And this manner of dealing with people is inprinted in the child's mentality. The child acts the same way with his playmates, later with his peers at school, then his girlfriend, wife, children, co-workers, employees, etc. What the parent is saying to the child with his or her actions is this - you have no responsibilty of explaining your orders or actions to others, because "your word is good enough." Is this not one form of disrespect?

 

I realize that to a lot of us it may seem like a nuisance. Why should we bother explaing ourselves to a little kid? But as unimporant or unnecessary as it may seem - it is so crucial to take those extra 15 or 20 minutes to explain to these wonderful little creatures the logic behind our orders. The chances of them obeying and cooperating (and not out of fear, but out of respect - after all, you took the time to treat them like a human being, not just a kid) are way much higher in cases like that. Having a sister 10 years younger, I know this from experience I remember when I was trying to teach my sister Armenian. I was so frustrated because she was not cooperating. "Why do I need to learn Armenian?" she kept on asking. "BECAUSE YOU ARE ARMENIAN!!!" was my snappy answer. Well, for a mature adult, that seems like a good enough reason, but not for a child !!! She had a very vague idea of what it actually meant to be ARMENIAN and I was making it a misserable experience for her by forcing her to read and write strange letters (all 40 of them).

One day I decided to take a different path. When she asked me the same question I answered in a calm tone, with a smile on my face "Because it is a beautiful language and if you don't learn it, there are so many books you will not be able to read." Her reaction was marvelous. After that day, she was the one initiating our lessons not me

 

One last comment. So many armenian parents who use the term "BECAUSE YOU ARE ARMENIAN" like a little electrical shocker to discipline their children. You can't do this BECAUSE YOU ARE ARMENIAN, you can't say that BECAUSE YOU ARE ARMENIAN, you can't wear that BECAUSE YOU ARE ARMENIAN, you can't ... you can't ... you can't ... BECAUSE YOU ARE ARMENIAN !!! Pretty soon the child starts to resent the fact that he/she is ARMENIAN and that becomes enough reason to lose his/her ARMENIAN-ism - just so that he/she can just be.