I don't understand !

[Azat]

Domino it very well could be. This is the concern that I have as well. This is why in the other thread I was asking what the US has to do to make the people of the Middle East not hate us.

 

But you asked for an explanation and I gave you one.

[Guest Fadi]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Azat:

MJ, if I can add a couple of things to your list as well. For those who think that people in the US are dumb(and I am guilt as well as I sometimes even joke about it) one only needs to look at the number of Universities and collages in the states(including per capita). Also the US has one of the highest rates for the % of people who go t those schools. The US has the largest number of Ivy league schools and some of the best and world renowned schools are in the US. So please don't give me the crap about US intelligence.

---

Azat, I think my post was clear, it was about the Americans knowledge about the fact that there is a world beside America.

[Azat]

Domino, what are you talking about? Name one country that does more for the world then the US. Can you tell me that Canadians, or russians, or the French or anyone else(individuals) give more, donate more then the Americans do for people of other countries. Who do you think is first in Aid when a country needs help?

[MJ]

Azat,

 

With your permission, to supplement your note, I would like to introduce some small accents:

 

The US government strongly believes that “over the long run Iraq may and will proliferate weapons of mass distractions” (I am quoting the official line) and will possibly pass it to Al-Qaeda and other affiliated terrorist organizations or, more likely, much like Libya in the past, will use its secret service agents to deliver these weapons to the American shores.

 

There is no question in the international community, including amongst the UN Security Council members, that Iraq has not provided evidence of having destroyed its chemical and biological weapons, which earlier had been proven to exist, which it had taken obligation to destroy. This obligation, among other things is what had stopped USA in 1991 from marching towards Iraq.

 

Of all the countries in the world, USA (and Israel) is the frontline of the receiving side of the potential terrorist attacks. Therefore USA has a different perception of the urgency of the Iraq disarmament and regime change than any other nation.

 

There has been a comment, today, on “preemptive strike.” If you believe that your enemy has weapons of mass distraction, when the enemy has a record of using them against its own people, among others, when you have evidence that the enemy is working on the delivery systems, when you know that well-known leaders of terrorist organizations reside in that country, get treatment there (note also that a very high profile terrorist in hiding for more than a decade, unfortunately don’t remember the name, was detected in Iraq about a year ago, and when it was requested to extradite him, he was found in a “committed suicide status”), and if you have responsibility for the security of your nation, you do apply to preemptive strikes – you don’t wait till the enemy uses biological or other weapons, for example, against you, and then you react. One of the most outrageously stupid concepts advanced by the opponents in UN, lately, was the concept of “smoking gun.” The gun smokes when it is used. Then, you may not be around to retaliate.

 

I have utmost admiration for pacifists. Years ago, Mahatma Gandhi was my hero. I do know some real pacifists who are against this war and I have utmost respect for their position. Some of my friends have been amongst the antiwar demonstrators of protest in New York, last month. But I also see ideologically charged people who pretend to be antiwar, but if the war was against USA, for example, with a possibility to win, they would have jumped up and down cheering it all day long. That’s why I have great skepticism towards their “anti-war” position.

 

Also, to pretend that the real motives of many in this position are not evident is to pretend being blind. They are not concerned as much about the war against Iraq as against the role of USA in the world and its relationship with EU and others. While this may be a legitimate issue, the current tangling of that issue with Iraq, and not noticing of the real motives of France, Germany, Russia and China, in particular, and occupying this “high-moral ground” is simply dishonest.

 

Finally, as a matter of general argument, I would like to note the following: there is type of people operating in a hypothetical world. They have their own theory in advance. Then they search for the “evidence” that would support their theory. (By the way, this kind of mentality exists even in pure science.) They usually have some strongly held beliefs, which may or may not have anything to do with the reality. They make some strong assumptions in advance, and then build a whole “framework of evidence” around it. And they are not able to listen. They are out there just to discharge their negative emotions. I think this is unfortunate. Frequently, these may be good people with good intentions, but they confine themselves in such a small world and push themselves into such a small corner that it becomes very hard to get out of such corner. One can notice that by doing so, they are not trying to address some external issue, in reality, but are struggling with some internal issue, which under proper circumstances may lead to outstanding spiritual result, but under some other circumstances may simply destroy even a very good person.

 

Time will put things in a proper perspective, I think.

[MJ]

[Azat]

Sireli Vava jan,

 

I actually know that Canadians are great people and I really love Canada and it's people. Have been there many(probably over 10 times. all over) I was just sad with what happened.

 

And few minutes ago FOX Sports had a shot from 1991. Canadians playing the blackhawks right after the start of the first Gulf War. It was one of the most amazing sights I had ever seen. There were people with the US Flag, people with signs that read "No flag burning here" and cheering and singing the US anthem and the game was in Montreal. You may remember that. it was just amazing how much things have changed between the two gulf wars.

 

I will try to find that video and post it here.

[Stormig]

Actually, Azat, I'm not trying to imply anything here. Still, that some of the best universities in the world are in the U.S. means little. Here's why I think so - my friend recently went to MIT, and she says Americans are the minority. OK, the Asians might as well be American citizens. However, we know their family and ethnic culture is entirely different from American mainstream. Plus she says there are a LOT of foreigners as well to power that institute. She says it's completely different from the time you spend outside it.

Also, I believe in quality and not quantity. Need I remind anyone of CNN's age 18-24 Iraq polls? I really don't care how well someone does their job if they can't find their country on a map. That's like accepting a no-social-life nerd as normal. With Americans, though, it seems like the other extreme.

Guys, there are a lot of people out there other than you and me and us.

 

BTW, Azat, last time I heard something down those lines, it was the Japanese who were the greatest donators.

[Azat]

Stormy, here is the official stats from the MIT Admissions office. I think your friend loves to exaggerate. And in general, i would think none of the top 20-30 universities in the US will have a minority population who are the majority in that school.

 

~~~~~~

 

The undergraduate population totals 4,389 students; 2,807 (64 percent) are Caucasian and 1,582 (36 percent) are minorities--281 (6.4 percent) black, 921 (21 percent) Asian-American, 357 (8.1 percent) Hispanic-American, and 23 (0.5 percent) Native American.

 

The graduate student population totals 5,239 students; 4,843 (92 percent) are Caucasian and 396 (7.6 percent) are minorities--81 (1.5 percent) African-American; 241 (4.6 percent) Asian American, 70 (1.3 percent) Hispanic-American, and 4 (0.1 percent) Native American.

 

~~~~~~

 

[ March 21, 2003, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: Azat ]

[Stormig]

Maybe she does exaggerate. However, she is in graduate chemical engineering - I think.

[Azat]

Nairi the leadership of your country was one of the first to support the war on Iraq. Guess they too don't have any common sense and we the people of HyeForum all do.

 

There intelligence issue was brought up because people on this forum were saying that Americans were not intelligent. No other reason.

[nairi]

Azat jan, as I pointed out in another thread, even neo-Nazis go to university. It's not about having a high IQ; it's about having common sense. Clearly those who run the office in the US, and those who support it, do not have this common sense, regardless of the university they graduated from.

[nairi]

Azat jan, the Dutch government is as divided over the war as the American people, although they have agreed not to send troops to Iraq. The American government completely distorted this by claiming that Holland supports them 100%. However, regardless of what the government of the country I live in thinks, I'm happy I still have a mind of my own.

 

As for American intelligence, I never claimed Americans were not intelligent; I merely said that common sense is not a necessity to get a diploma, and a diploma is not a necessity to learn common sense.

[nairi]

Added: I don't support Saddam. My pov is: defend your country/allies if you must, but don't attack another.

 

And no, I don't think everyone in this forum has common sense

 

To sleep now.... Gisher bari.

[aman]

University diploma is a way to get a good paying job in America. Many americans hate school but go through it to be able to get a good job. They look forward to get out of school and to make money. University diploma is business capital...Academic achievement, education in real sense....what is that?

[Harut]

this unfortunately fits the school i go to perfectly.

i regret that i chose this one over others i got in.

[Guest Fadi]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Azat:

Nairi the leadership of your country was one of the first to support the war on Iraq. Guess they too don't have any common sense and we the people of HyeForum all do.

 

There intelligence issue was brought up because people on this forum were saying that Americans were not intelligent. No other reason.

---

Azat, please go back and reread the way I brough the intelligence issue, it was about the fact that the general American population has no idea of what is happening outside of their world(USA), and when I brough it again, you brough the subject of donation. I just refered to a statistic about the % of Americans that don't even know where is Canada, I have not invented that one.

 

About the war in Iraq, I was expecting answers, and I got the regurgitation of the exact American arguments brough by Martin, but that has nothing to do about why US should attack Iraq without the UN accord. Everyone in his right mind knows Iraq has weapon of mass destruction, everyone knows Saddam, but the Saddam, gave to the Kurds a kind of authonomy, even if he took away Mosul and other places where there was petrol production. This same Saddam gave to the Kurds schools, something that the Turkish government still restrict, this same Saddam build up the Iraqi school system. Yes, he gased the Kurds, but for the same reason that Saddam gased the Kurds, Turkey has destroyed 3000 Kurdish villages and deported more then 2.5 million of them(in number of victims from those uprasing were more then the number that dies by gasing in Iraq). Saddam invaded the Koait, but what Koait did was not as well very brilliant, and they were far from being angels when they sold Iraqi debts and were one of the responsable of the crowling of the Iraqi petrolium industry and refused any accords.

 

Saddam dictatorial regime is not worst then Turkish military deictatorial regime that has a control over the government, what about the dictatorial regimes in the Islamic world that many are US allies ?

 

In order to attack a state, this state should invade another or/and start an ethnic cleansing, those could justify the US attacking Iraq without UN accord, but not when there is hypothetical allegations, like I said above Iraq probably have what they are accused of having, but one has to bring evidences, that how it works, it may not be a perfect concept but it is the best way we know, because if every country would have the right to attack another because it consider another as a threat for its security, it will have the right to attack. Take a look at the Turkish army that enter in Iraqi soil, why they should not ? They are justified by what the US has done.

 

I am not against the reverting of the political regime of Saddam, I just think that no country should have the right alone to decide to attack another state, to make justice itself, thats how it work, and this is one of the reason why I am against the war, applying Kants logic of: "If everyone were to do that, what would happen."

 

Another thing I would want to raise, more power a country has, more responsabilities it should have, not only responsabilities, but as well risks, if you want to be the super power of the world, and act as such, then you should accept the risks, its like a movie start that want a public glorification, but refuse paparazzies, you can not only have the benefits, its pathetic, but its just that. If the US want to act as a superpower, the world superpower, then they should expect les risques du metier. 9/11, was just that. We can not have the best of every worlds.

 

It was just a dumbs opinion.