Meet the U.S.

[Azat]

Juggs, what changed?

 

Sip, while I agree with you on majority of what you said, I disagree with the attitude where one just praises a person or a country or whatever just because 95% of things that that entity does are good.

[Accelerated]

Nothing really, I wasnt much of a 'campaigner' in the first place, but probably a little more than a year ago I just realised, I really shouldnt waste my time worrying about 'worldly' issues (there are enough people doing that) and instead concentrate on my own thing.....and you know what.....not giving a sh!t feels good too

 

[ March 02, 2003, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: Accelerated ]

[Accelerated]

.....funny....'a little more than a year ago' was 9/11....maybe that had something to do with it....maybe I didnt feel the satisfaction I thought I would feel prior to 9/11 of such an event taking place. The consequences were quite sobering: global economic recession, a world power bent on using the incident for its gain, people jumping from tower etc. etc.

 

[ March 02, 2003, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: Accelerated ]

[Stormig]

Yes, not only would you not be able to make a difference, but you don't have much to offer, either, never being able to tell the difference between doing something for overall good and just plain making noise for your own ego. I wonder if you feel the same way about Armenians as you do with Iraqis. Not that they probably did make that much of a difference, but what do you think brought non-Armenians from Russia, Serbia, and other places to fight alongside the Armenians in Karabagh? I wonder what Armenian goods/products they enjoyed at all to be materially and piggishly obsessed with while making declarations about motherland and religion even if they dropped everything else.

 

Remember the common German during WWII -

 

First they came for the Jews. I did nothing.

Then they came for the communists. I helped no-one.

Then they came for the homosexuals. I didn't say a word.

Then they came for me. But by then there was no-one left around to help me.

[Stormig]

Paraphrasing Einstein's quote:

The world is a bad place not because of the few truly evil but because of the many more who do precisely nothing about it.

 

This does not apply to the situation the U.S. claims for itself with Iraq. This applies to HOME.

The reason why Germany gets any respect in today's world is because it has officially scraped its Nazi past. Same with Japan. You don't expect people to glorify them for their achievements and/or culture when they have a long record of committing atrocities, whatever the ratio of good to bad, because they constitute quite something in the world one way or another. Please.

[Stormig]

One minor figure (nothing like Einstein) who certainly couldn't "take it" -

 

http://search.britannica.com/eb/article?eu...ntos-dumont&ct=

 

You need premium services to read the rest. Here is the rest from the hard-copy encyclopaeida:

 

[bEGIN.]... began to construct dirigible airships. After many failures he built one that in 1901 won the Deutsch Prize and a prize from the Brazilian government for the first flight in a given time from Saint-Cloud to the Eiffel Tower and return.

Shortly after the Wright brothers' flights in 1903, Santos-Dumont turned his attention to heavier-than-air machines. After experimenting with a vertical-propeller model, in 1906 he built a machine, the 14-bis, on the principle of the box kite, and in October he won the Deutsch-Archdeacon Prize for the first officially observed powered flight in Europe; in November he flew 220 metres in 21 seconds.

He returned in 1928 to Brazil, where, within a few years, having become depressed over the use of aircraft in war, he committed suicide. [END]

 

And I don't think that this is just hearsay.

[Stormig]

Sip, you are telling me accomplishments give the U.S. the right to do whatever it wants? Unbelievable.

Europe got to its present level with the colonies it raped. It is not just the U.S. going out of a civilized country's way. Yet Europeans are able to assess the past without being called Europe-bashers.

Saudi Arabia brings all the comfort, medical insurance, technology, etc., to what used to be a starved desert. So, it can oppress its women all it wants, the men are sick and tired of Wahabite-bashing. What kinda crap is that?

Technological advances and those kinds of things are COMPLETELY unrelated with politics, materially, ethically. And I could care less if I had satellite TV, I'd rather live in a passive world, no dictating superpower U.S., no Russia, no China, no Brazil. Moreover, you can ask for glorification of medical and technological advances in a non-political forum. Good luck.

Just suppose, for a moment - what if your family were major thieves, major bloodsuckers, and they used these means to provide you comfort, provide you good education, and you found out about their dirty business? I couldn't put up with that. Thank you for the education, thank you for the riches - now, straighten up from this moment on. Provide me with less, just don't harm someone else, otherwise I am not going to be able to live with it. I sure as hell couldn't. The more you people let your administrations get away with things like this, the haughtier they are going to get.

[Stormig]

And don't anybody dare tell me I am doing European glorification and U.S. bashing like a good leftist. The great difference between the U.S. and Europe is that Europeans can tell the good apart from the bad, and looking for someone who can tell things like they are (I am not talking about intellectuals but grass-roots) isn't like looking for a needle in a haystack. However, Europe isn't perfect, either. Belgium, for example, through whom the case against Sharon was filed, Belgium who champions the rights of oppressed minorities, etc., is the country that raped the Congo for natural rubber at the start of the 20th century, and an official acknowledgement and apology hasn't come yet. However, today it would be a bit difficult for it to do the same again. But they could've got away with it all, if they had claimed that the Europe that gave the world Judeo-Christian (and Western) civilization accompanied with language, literature, law, etc., the birth-place of the Industrial Revolution, which the world wouldn't have had were it not for them, was above criticism.

Accomplishment and crime are two things apart. Letting one go because of the accomplishments is as ugly as the U.S. letting go of Japanese scientists who actually participated in germ warfare in the places they invaded, because those scientists agreed to share their research, while they deserved to be put on trial like anyone else.

[Sip]

Well, although I am a COMPLETE CONFUSED MESS at the moment about the point of this thread, I can't help but to ask: How many of the current "regimes" in the world have used chemical, biological, and/or nuclear weapons in the past?

 

You are probably going to come back and tell me that the US used nuclear weapons on Japan and is therefore a completely horrible entity. But you have to admit that whether this US is the same US of the World War II era can be subject of a HUGE debate (it is not that clear cut).

 

However, I highly doubt you can make the same claim about Iraq. This in fact is THE SAME Iraq that burnt thousands and thousands with biological and chemical weapons. This is the same Iraq that WILL do it again given the chance. I just cannot comprehend how all these "anti-US" sentiments in the world (which may well be warranted for verious reasons) are coming in the way of doing what is right.

 

Why use IRAQ as an excuse to lash back at the US when it is completely obvious that the most serious current problem in the world is IRAQ and not the US?

 

I was at least comforted a bit to see that a whole bunch of Arab countries are in fact demanding that Sadam step down. At least they have some shred of logic left in them!!!

 

[ March 02, 2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Guest Fadi]

Down the US, Cammarads, lets rebuild.

 

http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russian/ly...itical/ussr.mid

 

Unbreakable Union of freeborn Republics,

Great Russia has welded forever to stand.

Created in struggle by will of the people,

United and mighty, our Soviet land!

 

Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,

Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.

O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,

To Communism's triumph lead us on!

 

Through tempests the sunrays of freedom have cheered us,

Along the new path where great Lenin did lead.

To a righteous cause he raised up the peoples,

Inspired them to labor and valorous deed.

[Or, the old way:

Be true to the people, thus Stalin has reared us,

Inspire us to labor and valorous deed!]

 

Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,

Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.

O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,

To Communism's triumph lead us on!

 

In the vict'ry of Communism's deathless ideal,

We see the future of our dear land.

And to her fluttering scarlet banner,

Selflessly true we always shall stand!

 

Lets put an end to Seaphans devilnish empire. :-)

 

[ March 02, 2003, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Accelerated]

Yes, yes....paying out in the Roasting thread

 

Ofcorse not....and not because most Iraqis dont care about us, but because I just happen to be Armenian, born and raised there, etc. etc.

 

yes....look up mercenary in the dictionary

 

Sorry....this doesnt make sense

 

I dont care....LOL

 

hmmmmm....I dont care? (LOL)

 

Oh no no! Its because they have MONEY! Japan still hasnt owned up for the atrocities committed against Allied POWs and the massacres on the Chinese mainland, enslavement of Korean girls for sex etc.

 

Obviously, the guy was an idiot!

[Accelerated]

It sure is the same!

 

What about Palestine, North Korea, Ivory Coast, Congo, Columbia etc.

 

this bunch is made up of 3:

 

Kuwait - 'saved' from Iraq in Gulf War

Bahrain - Main Base of 'coalition' forces in the gulf

UAE - mmmm....not sure, but there prob is a good reason here also.

 

All insignificant countries btw

 

[ March 02, 2003, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Accelerated ]

[Sip]

I was going to mention them but unfortunately, I couldn't locate them on a map. Plus, CNN hasn't talked about them too much.

[Accelerated]

LOL - In other words 'you dont care'!

[Stormig]

Sip, the most serious current problem in the world is NOT Iraq. Maybe it is for Americans, but we know better, and even if you were to narrow down the scope, to the Middle East which Iraq is a part of, it is definitely Israel and the Palestinians, not Iraq that they are trying to invade with lame excuses like, "He's got al Qaeda connections, he's got 5% of the weapons he used to" and "he's bad with his civilians." Helloooo, why did the last part occur to you only lately anyway? Why the sudden fever? Nothing has changed in well over a decade, why now? Because it suits you, not because you believe it yourself!

Palestinians in the past have been deported, today are being bulldozed and being threatened with "transfer" to the "true Palestinian state, Jordan," and goodness knows what tomorrow. And the U.S. just thinks quite highly of its ally. Apparently bulldozers are not WMD and neither are tanks.

I don't see how the U.S. is going to be any different from what it used to be, if they quote Monroe daily. Even if, under this administration it is not doing too well. The way MANY people outside the U.S. see it is, it's only going to make matters worse.

Iraq's neighbours aren't happy with Iraq, but they don't agree that this is the way to go about Saddam, nor do they feel threatened even if he's their neighbour. The U.S. on the other hand is welcome to take out on its other ally, Saudi Arabia, for al Qaeda connections.

Panama was no biggest problem in the world, either. Yet look at what's happened.

[Stormig]

Idiot is not the unevil innovator but the bum that makes declarations out of his sorry state.

[Accelerated]

I assume you came up with this, because of my post in the Khorum thread that went like this:

 

ok....now I want you to look up the word exaggeration in the dictionary.

 

PS. like my new sig? I think its groo-oovy - LOL

 

[ March 03, 2003, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Accelerated ]

[Stormig]

Accel,

 

Neither is your assumption correct nor this thread about you.

[Accelerated]

I dont care - LMAO

[Stormig]

Go party with your Croats.

[Accelerated]

Cant, its only Monday, nothing open on Monday except for pubs and brothels - Im not a fan of either.

[Stormig]

Then go play in a playground. Open twenty-four hours a day, seven days of the week.

[Azat]

okay you guys stop

[Stormig]

There are a few versions of this quiz. The other versions compare Israel to Iraq.

 

http://www.marigoldzine.com/suff/

 

50 Questions About Iraq

(with answers)

 

1. What percentage of the world's population does the U.S. have?

6%

 

2. What percentage of the world's wealth does the U.S. have?

50%

 

3. Which country has the largest oil reserves?

Saudi Arabia

 

4. Which country has the second largest oil reserves?

Iraq

 

5. How much is spent on military budgets a year worldwide?

$900+ billion

 

6. How much of this is spent by the U.S.?

50%

 

7. What percent of US military spending would ensure the essentials of life to everyone in the world, according the UN?

10% (that's about $40 billion, the amount of funding initially requested to fund our retaliatory attack on Afghanistan).

 

8. How many people have died in wars since World War II?

86 million

 

9. How long has Iraq had chemical and biological weapons?

Since the early 1980's.

 

10. Did Iraq develop these chemical & biological weapons on their own?

No, the materials and technology were supplied by the US government, along with Britain and private corporations.

 

11. Did the US government condemn the Iraqi use of gas warfare against Iran?

No

 

12. How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the Kurdish town of Halabja in 1988?

5,000

 

13. How many western countries condemned this action at the time?

0

 

14. How many gallons of agent Orange did America use in Vietnam?

17 million.

 

15. Are there any proven links between Iraq and September 11th terrorist attack?

No

 

16. What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in the Gulf War?

35,000

 

17. How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the western forces during the Gulf War ?

0

 

18. How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S. tanks with ploughs mounted on the front?

6,000

 

19. How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait after the Gulf War?

40 tons

 

20. What according to the UN was the increase in cancer rates in Iraq between 1991 and 1994?

700%

 

21. How much of Iraq's military capacity did America claim it had destroyed in 1991?

80%

 

22. Is there any proof that Iraq plans to use its weapons for anything other than deterrence and self defense?

No

 

23. Does Iraq present more of a threat to world peace now than 10 years ago?

No

 

24. How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq in 2002/3?

10,000

 

25. What percentage of these will be children?

Over 50%

 

26. How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq?

11 years

 

27. Was the U.S and the UK at war with Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999?

No

 

28. How many pounds of explosives were dropped on Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999?

20 million

 

29. How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing strict sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports?

12 years

 

30. What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000 births)?

38

 

31. What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999 (per 1,000 births)?

131 (that's an increase of 345%)

 

32. How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions?

1.5 million

 

33. How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to sanctions since 1997?

750,000

 

34. Did Saddam order the inspectors out of Iraq?

No

 

35. How many inspections were there in November and December 1998?

300

 

36. How many of these inspections had problems?

5

 

37. Were the weapons inspectors allowed entry to the Ba'ath Party HQ?

Yes

 

38. Who said that by December 1998, "Iraq had in fact, been disarmed to a level unprecedented in modern history."

Scott Ritter, UNSCOM chief.

 

39. In 1998 how much of Iraq's post 1991 capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction did the UN weapons inspectors claim to have discovered and dismantled?

90%

 

40. Is Iraq willing to allow the weapons inspectors back in?

Yes

 

41. How many UN resolutions did Israel violate by 1992?

Over 65

 

42. How many UN resolutions on Israel did America veto between 1972 and 1990?

30+

 

44. How many countries are known to have nuclear weapons?

8

 

45. How many nuclear warheads has Iraq got?

0

 

46. How many nuclear warheads has US got?

over 10,000

 

47. Which is the only country to use nuclear weapons?

the US

 

48. How many nuclear warheads does Israel have?

Over 400

 

50. Who said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter"?

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr

[Stormig]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/07/...losi/index.html

 

Pelosi: Democrats missed chance to turn Bush away from war

Urges more diplomacy with Iraq

Friday, March 7, 2003 Posted: 2:15 PM EST (1915 GMT)

 

 

Nancy Pelosi

 

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Asserting the Bush administration appears certain to go to war with Iraq, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said Friday things might have turned out differently if Democrats late last year had opposed the push to use force.

 

"If the Democrats had spoken out more clearly in a unified vote five months ago in opposition to the resolution, if the people had gone on to the streets five months ago in these numbers in our country and throughout the world, I think we might have been in a different place today," Pelosi said in a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations.

 

"But the fact that we didn't and because we were very split at that time on it, I think the president is too far down the road and I don't think he's turning back," the California Democrat said.

 

Pelosi voted against a resolution put forth in Congress in October that authorized President Bush to use force against Iraq if necessary. Sixty percent of House Democrats voted against the resolution, but it ultimately passed through both houses of Congress.

 

Delivering her first speech on foreign policy since becoming the Democrats' leader in the House, Pelosi said she believes Bush outlined a new objective, beyond disarming Iraq, in his comments Thursday night, when he held a news conference.

 

"The president made it clear last night that that was not enough, that regime change was what he was requiring in order not to go to war," she said.

 

Pelosi said she remained opposed to using military force against Iraq at this juncture, despite Bush's latest comments.

 

"My position has not changed," she said to applause. "I do not believe that going to war now is the best way to rid Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction.

 

"Before going to war we must exhaust all alternatives, such as the continuation of inspections, diplomacy and the leverage provided by the threat of military action."

 

Pelosi voiced concerns about the United States' relationship with its European allies.

 

"Over the past two years, we have too often tested the reservoir of good will toward us by saying and doing things that show disregard for our friends," she said, adding that she believes the administration has taken its allies for granted since the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

 

During a question-and-answer session, Ted Sorenson, a former policy adviser and speech writer for President Kennedy, asked what's become of the Democratic Party.

 

"Never again will the Democrats go into a race without defining who we are," Pelosi responded. "Never again will the Democrats have to answer to the charge, 'We didn't know what you stood for or what you were willing to fight for.' "