Globalisation?

[Guest]

I'll try to translate the part of the "Legend of Babelon Tower" which I remember.

 

"When God created the earth people where speaking one language. They were of one color and had the same habits. They worshiped the God, made sacrifices in his honor and expressed their gratitude for the bread and water the God gave them.

As time passed by people of the earth developed and one day they decided to build a tower and see the God. They started to build the tower at the city of Babelon. Those who started the construction were long dead when the tower was almost compleeted. But the God punished the people of the earth for their attemped to become gods themselves. He pained them in different colors, mixed their languages so that nobody was able to understand the other, and changed their habits. After this people started to argue who was the best among them to own the tower. Finally as a result of war the tower was destroyed".

 

My question is: Should we build the tower again?

 

Note: Sarcasm is accepted but try to have a point!

[Guest]

I am not sure if we should.

But only GOD would be able to do so (impossible)

[Guest]

Basically the Bible tells us that the Anti-christ will try to build a falsely united kingdom. However, this doesn't mean everyone should continue with their petty factions, Armenian vs. Azeri, Sinhal vs. Tamil, Albanian vs. Serb, etc ad nauseum! We must work for peace, because it is the perfect will of our Lord. We must pray for the conversion of the Azeris, did you know many are converting to Evangelical Christianity? I am not saying throw in the towel and say "Here Turks and Azeris come and take our lands, pillage and sack." What I am saying is there comes a point when we must look beyond nationalism and see each other as God's children. All the divisions are artificial.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by farsisteve@aol.com:
Basically the Bible tells us that the Anti-christ will try to build a falsely united kingdom. However, this doesn't mean everyone should continue with their petty factions, Armenian vs. Azeri, Sinhal vs. Tamil, Albanian vs. Serb, etc ad nauseum! We must work for peace, because it is the perfect will of our Lord. We must pray for the conversion of the Azeris, did you know many are converting to Evangelical Christianity? I am not saying throw in the towel and say "Here Turks and Azeris come and take our lands, pillage and sack." What I am saying is there comes a point when we must look beyond nationalism and see each other as God's children. All the divisions are artificial.

---

The perfect will of our Lord was presented to us by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. Since then thousands of wars have been fought.
Please, define what the lable "petty faction" meens: can we apply it only to Irish vs. English, Spanish vs. Bask, or US vs. China vs. Russia vs. Iran, Paki vs. India, all these are petty factions too. Is being a petty or non-petty a matter of population, or geopolitical significance or smth. else.
And also, can we find a strong and peaceful force to lead us in the struggle for peace?

[Guest]

Yes Berj, I would definetely include the Pakistan vs. India bickering and all the others you mentioned as petty factions. Yes it is all just a repetition of Cain and Abel being played out over and over. Is there a strong force to lead us to peace? Yes, there is, his name is Jesus Christ! I don't mean to sound like a Bible-thumper, I am not necessarily a fundamentalist Christian, but I really do believe that only God can bring us true peace.

 

I don't however believe in Globalization. It harms more than it helps and I hate to see the Americanization of the world, as much as I love the U.S. Mexicans should be Mexicans, Chinese should be Chinese, etc. My God, the last time I went to Ensenada Mexico, I had to go all over town to find a Panaderia (self serve bakeries with traditional Mexican sweet breads and hot chocolate), but boy was there a Winchell's Donut shop on every corner!

[Guest]

AZERBAIJAN LIFTS BAN ON *** BETWEEN MEN

 

MEDIA RELEASE BY ILGA-EUROPE

 

Gay activists in Azerbaijan report that the ban on ***ual

relationships between men in that country has been lifted. A special

edition of "Azerbaijan", the official newspaper of the Parliament,

published on 28 May, reports that the Parliament has approved a new

Criminal Code, and that the President has signed a decree bringing it

into force in September. The text of the new Criminal Code is also

published. From this it is clear that the old Article 113 (inherited

>From the Soviet era, and which punished anal *** between men with

three years imprisonment) has been replaced with a new Article 150,

which bans only forcible ***ual acts.

 

Azerbaijan has applied for membership of the Council of Europe,

and the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe is due to vote

on its application on Wednesday 28 June. The introduction of the new

Criminal Code is part of the widespread legal and institutional

reforms undertaken by Azerbaijan in order to bring its institutions up

to the standards required by the Council of Europe. These standards

include the abolition of laws which ban same-*** relationships.

 

ILGA Europe has been campaigning for the last 18 months to

ensure that Article 113 is repealed as a condition of membership of

the Council of Europe. Last month a Committee of the Parliamentary

Assembly proposed that acceptance of Azerbaijan's membership on 28

June be made subject to a specific obligation to repeal Article 113.

 

Nico Beger, ILGA-Europe co-delegate to the Council of Europe,

commented: "This is very good news. Article 113 created real problems

for gay people, particularly through extortion by corrupt police

officers."

 

Her co-delegate Nigel Warner added: "Since the historic ruling by the

European Court of Human Rights in the Dudgeon case in 1981 some 22

countries and territories in Europe have repealed laws banning gay

relationships. In the whole of Europe only Armenia, the Republika

Srpska entity of Bosnia Hercegovina and the Chechen Republic still

maintain such laws".

 

 

THE INTERNATIONAL LESBIAN AND GAY ASSOCIATION

 

The International Lesbian and Gay Association is a world-wide

federation of 350 national and local groups dedicated to achieving

equal rights for lesbians, gay men, bi***uals and transgendered people

everywhere.

 

 

THE COUNCIL OF EUROPE

 

The Council of Europe's main role is to strengthen democracy,

human rights and the rule of law throughout its member states. Founded

in the wake of the Second World War, it is the continent's most

important human rights organisation, with some 41 member states

committed to observing its human rights standards.

 

The European Convention on Human Rights is the most significant of its

many human rights treaties. The European Court of Human Rights settles

complaints of violations of this Convention.

 

The Council of Europe is governed by the Foreign Ministers of

its member states (who together form its decision-making body, the

"Committee of Ministers") and by Representatives from their

parliaments (who make up its "Parliamentary Assembly".) More

information on the Council can be obtained from its website, www.coe.fr

 

NB: The Council of Europe is not the same as the European

Union, which is primarily an economic institution, comprising 15 West

European member states

 

Berj's P.S.: I'M PROUD OF ARMENIA!!!Hail Armenia, Hail Serbs, Hail Chechens!

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Berj:
[Hail Serbs, Hail Chechens![/b]

---

Hail Serbs ??? How can an Armenian, when taking into account our experience of genocide, stand up for those that practise it ?

'Ethnic cleansing' (possibley the ugliest term in the English language) has been a policy of the Serbians in the last decade.

How can you support that ?

I don't understand

[Guest]

Hagopian jan

 

Because the Serbs are Orthodox Christians, so that makes it ok!

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hagopian:
Hail Serbs ??? How can an Armenian, when taking into account our experience of genocide, stand up for those that practise it ?

'Ethnic cleansing' (possibley the ugliest term in the English language) has been a policy of the Serbians in the last decade.

How can you support that ?

I don't understand

---

Do you take any other news except from CNN and BBC. Because when they say "WORLD COMMUNITY CONDEMNS..." they just mean NATO. Actually, the situation in Kosovo has changed, and now the Albanians are cleasing the Serbs and burning their churches.
Anyway, I hailed Serbs as an etnic entity who didn't passed the gay rights legislation. Please, read before replying.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by farsisteve:
Hagopian jan

Because the Serbs are Orthodox Christians, so that makes it ok!

---

Farsi,

Didn't you noticed the word "Chechens" in my posting. They're definitly not Christians.

[Guest]

So what if they let men get off on each other. With all the problems facing Armenia, i don't really see gay men as being a big issue. Live and let live.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hagopian:
So what if they let men get off on each other. With all the problems facing Armenia, i don't really see gay men as being a big issue. Live and let live.

---

That's exactly what I'm talking about: concidering all the problems Armenia is facing now, why are we being pressed to pass those irrelevant gay rights and sect rights legislations. There are gays in Armenia, but they are so few that they don't even need a legislation. Let them go to Netherlands, this is a very good place for them. Does this world have a right to gay free zones or not?

[Guest]

hayastan@ mnum e Hayastan yev k@mna HAyastan .!!!!

karevor che vorkan djvar lini kam vorkan Vat lini Sotsyalakan yev kam Finansakan Vojak @ Hayastany .

isk inch veraberum e gay massayin astavts irenst het . heto inch vor ka gay Hayastanum ? urmen inch Hayastan@ vorakazrkvum e amborjovin ? mi kani gay unenalov Hayastan@ yev Hay azg@ dartsav q@erch u palas ? voch !!! yerbek .

 

Tvek n@ranst azatutyun yev kam kiyevyan kamurjits. azat torek inch kuzen tor anen kuzen tor trnen Hayastanits durs kuzen tor trenen iyskan Liberal yev azatamoll USA

 

norits em asum vorkan el vat lini mer azgi vichak@ menak norits mnum enk Hay yev der shat barstr enk mer makrutyamb shat u shaterits.

[Guest]

JanFedayi,

Es vonc eghav vor Astvats@ irenc het? Astvats@ mer het a!, Satanan a irenc het!

[Guest]

Apjan de mikich el irants het tor erni mek el tesar xelkernin havaken gluxner@.

yev te Satanan Chliner Astsu Raderr@ voch mekn el cher imana.!!! Kliner Sovorakan Sirrvats Trra

[Guest]

Excerpt from report by Armenian news agency Noyan Tapan on 22nd August

 

Yerevan, 21st August: Only in the past 10 years has the Armenian

Apostolic Church managed to carry out its mission, Archbishop (?Arsen

Berberyan) noted at a meeting at the Azdak club of the Union of

Constitutional Rights. However, he said, sectarianism simultaneously

started spreading throughout the country. The archbishop also accused the

Armenian government of failing to include the history of religion in the

curriculums of general education schools and of indifference towards the

church and religion. For example, the archbishop said, the Armenian

Apostolic Church has been given one building in Vanadzor, while other

religious organizations have been allocated forty.

The archbishop also expressed concern at some of the conditions for

Armenia's membership in the Council of Europe, particularly those on the

legalization of the rights of ***ual minorities and sectarianism.

Speaking about the current activities of the Armenian Apostolic

Church, Berberyan said that the task of the church was to train a large

number of clergymen - around 200 trainees have already joined seminaries

in Echmiadzin, Sevan and Gyumri.

[Passage omitted: chairman of the union says that despite spread of

atheism during the Soviet period, Armenians managed to hold on to

Christianity]

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Berj:
Speaking about the current activities of the Armenian Apostolic
Church, Berberyan said that the task of the church was to train a large
number of clergymen - around 200 trainees have already joined seminaries
in Echmiadzin, Sevan and Gyumri.

---

Karcum em chen moracel trainingi mej mtcnel "How to run a successful business in Church" ararkan. Dzez chi tvum vor yekexecin gnalov korcnuma ir dern u demq@? Miguce eta patjar@ vor mardik darnum en taber axandneri andam?

[Guest]

Garo, I think you are right. Rather than to think on how to provide spiritual leadership, the Armenian Church is counting on the Government to crack-down on the sects.

[Guest]

Agreed 100%. I'm already feeling psycological difficulties when visiting the churches, especially ones in Yerevan and Echmiadzin.

[Guest]

The Armenian Church, seating on the laurels of a national church status, corrupted, outdated, aimless finds the courage to demand things from the government and the people (in this case not the same thing).

 

If they had a little bit of shame and decency they would be helping the nation.

 

But no. With diaspora money they build a huge church in a country with probably the highest number of churches per capita in the world.

 

They don´t share the same fighting spirit of other Christian churches, concern for inequality, human rights, corruption, poverty, disintegration of the Armenian social fabric. Their role in most of the diaspora has been a shame.

 

And we call this charlatans our spiritual and national leaders...

[Guest]

Diaspora money?

 

I guess the Diaspora people gave their money to the Church for the sole purpose of building and renovating our ancient churches and monasteries, otherwise they would have given them to our Armenian government.

Don't blame the church for that , blame the contributors.

 

Our Church survived the Soviet refime and managed to keep a great part of the population Christians. And now the Western modern sects found a fertile land to cultivate their crops. There is no need to Christinize the Christians , they can try their luck in Iran , Saudi Arabia , Kuwait , India and China.

We have the same problem here in Greece too, that is why I am angry about this issue.

 

Are we doing what we are supposed to do for our Armenia , or we are just expecting others to act so that we can easily critisize them afterwards from a safe distance?

 

If you don't like our Church , just stay away and do as is suit for you, but don't dare fight it , because our faith and devotion is greater than anything.

Create something valuable and convince us to take care of it , otherwise just stop patronizing.

[Guest]

I agree 200% with RAFFIAHARONIAN.

[Guest]

It’s amazing how averse some people are to criticism of Armenian Church. I think our concern with well being of church prompts us to recommend changes to the best of our intellectual ability. Criticism doesn’t mean we do not support it. It just means we see some things that are wrong and would like to point it out. I agree with MJ, that church should have only spiritual role in our lives. There should be complete separation of Church and State. Armenian State should not treat Armenian Apostolic Church any differently. Church should be able to adequately use its ample resources to serve people. I hate to bring it up, but we live in a capitalist world and all religious organizations should be competing to serve our religious and spiritual needs. It’s to the best of Armenian Church that it has competition, because it will listen to its congregation more closely. Don’t forget that monopoly is corruptive. Armenian church has a historical advantage over its competitors, considering the existing infrastructure and resources. Can someone explain me how and why can a new sect pose a threat to Armenian Apostolic Church. There must be obviously something wrong with it.

[Guest]

Raffi, I have posted my reply to you in the Christianity section. My understanding is that this section is supposed to be on Globalization. Why don't we transfer the "religious" conversation to that section...

[Guest]

Back to the subject of Globalization...

 

Berj, I think your alegory on Babelon is quite entertaining, but I suspect the goal of globalization is somewhat different from the massage of the allegory. The goal of globalization is not to reach God, or to compete with God. Its goal is just prosperity, and opportunity for all. Sure, it is a game where only the strong survive. But is in't it always the case? The strong survive, and the weak struggle for "goiapastpanutiun," evantually ceasing to exist.

 

I think Globalization is Armenia's only chance...

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 30, 2000).]

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited August 30, 2000).]