Turkey's EU membership

[-e-]

Esh@ ira kashvitc durs chi ga. Turqeri yeres@ kartces padoshitc a. Tqum es yeresen-asum a andzrev ekav. Sranq sovor en amen varkyan@ mek iretc dimak@ pokhel. Zarmatcats chem lini ete ays erkus@ nuyn nshats mardik linen.

[Guest Fadi]

I still am waiting and waiting...

[-e-]

how about an energizer? that will keep you going

[-e-]

T-Bark, your name cannot be located... I see you were mistaken for someone else -and for sure, you are asked for an apology. There were couple of others such as, Marqo, H-Rose...simply you were mistaken for H-Rose.

[Guest Fadi]

Then I was right... was I not ? Now be the nice guy and appologise whom you slandered.

[aurguplu]

Tb, by talking about 25-30% kurds in turkey, I am referring to those who describe themselves as kurds and speak kurdish to various degrees, and the further east you go, the more this means "household language". There was a secret poll in 1991 prior to demirel's prime ministry. It emerged that there were 17 million Kurds at that time in Turkey. At the time the population of the country was 55 million, ,if I remember correctly. 17/55: 0.31 (i.e. about 1/3). How did this happen with all the assimilation campaign? Very simple: children! The Kurdish rate of increase is about 5 times that of Istanbul, for instance. This is partly the result of the economic and social realities of the region, but also partly the result of the resistance to the assimilation campaign. The Russians also had an assimilation campaign against the Muslims in the Soviet Union, it succeded to a certain extent in that language retention rates dropped to below 50%, but birth rates increased in relatiation.

 

So in brief, one fourth to one third of our population is Kurdish.

 

Realpolitik and "the art of the possible" are two very different things. I am beginning to believe that you are sincere in your disingenuousness. How was that Sip?

 

You may be right, I am not a political scientist, and might be using the term not very accurately. What I mean by realpolitik is that I approach the subject as a problem that needs to be solved, and its solution will be possible by

 

You are saying it as if I have asked you to do these things. If that is the kind of straw-man you had to come up with, my positions must have been quite valid.

 

No I am not implying that you have. In fact, no-one has asked me to do anything, I am doing what I am doing out of my own accord. But I fully realise that if I want to do something constructive in this issue (like in any other issue) I have to look at the issue on the one hand and my powers on the other.

 

I am personally not wounded a bit by the lack of recognition by Turkey, or apology.

 

Many Armenians are by their own declaration, and I can only agree with and symphatise with that. Please bear in mind that I am interested in finding a solution that is acceptabe to the majority on both sides of the divide, and not specific individuals.

 

However, I would very much love to see Turkey evolve to a level where those things would come naturally, not only for Armenians, but for the Turks as well. I have zero interest in achieving those superficial results by realpolitik. And I would expect sensible Armenians as well as sensible Turks would think along the same lines.

 

If you are going to wait for Turkey to evolve to that level naturally, you will probably have to wait until the Turkish GNP reaches 10,000 USD in terms of purchasing power parity, until much of the country is online, until the Turks shed their old fears that everyone is trying to dismember them, until the Cyprus and Kurdish problems are solved one way or the other, and the results have sunk in and accepted by the Turkish population, i.e. for about another quarter of a century.

 

The common ground that is worthwhile to find will be found when the Turkish population slowly but surely evolves sufficiently. If Turkey were under a quasi-colonial rule as Germany and Japan were at the end of WWII, some "acceleration" of the process would be practical, desirable, and welcome. But it is not.

 

I agree, but as I said, that's gonna take longer than desired. Turkey is not and has not been under quasi-colonial rule in history (though our current relationship with the eu and the usa, but especially the former, is a bit reminiscent of that), and although eu pressure has rsulted in the acceleration of some processes, it also runs the risk of creating a backlash in the population as it is forced upon them by people who do not make much of an effort to conceal the fact that they would rather see turkey dismembered rather than help her improve.

 

The prerequisite enlightenment for a true resolution simply cannot be achieved by Machiavellian negotiations.

 

TB, are you sure we ae talking about the same thing? States are not moral creatures, people are. Your arguments are fully valid when it comes to people's approach to the question, but states just don't function like that. And it is not a question of enlightenment as far as the state is concerned, for the state knew and knows about the true nature of the question and its moral implications, anyway. The facts don't suit it so it is barring the entire population from getting to know more about it, and those who know, from expressing themselves. The state is aware of the fact that they are merely postponing and not eliminating the inveitable, but they would keep doing that until the time when they perceive that the losses incurred from such a recognition are offset by the gains made from it.

 

I won't bite that bait.

 

And what are you going to do? Deny it?

 

I have previously acknowledged the difficulty of expressing truly relevant and truly enlightened viewpoints from your position. And I said I would understand it if you became silent because of it. However, there is much "sneaky" education one can do without breaking the rules.

 

I have spoken too much to be silent about it and expect to get away unscathed. And there is no point in anything sneaky: the basic facts, the points of conflict, the hidden agendas, the ulterior motives, the this and that of this issue have been so overworked over the last century that there really is nothing else to be gained by either side in anything sneaky. It's time to speak out. Also, I am not good at sneaky things. I am blunt.

 

Less glamorous perhaps, but the only thing that can be done. Turks need to learn the basic vocabulary of enlightened social thinking and commentary before arriving at the "common ground".

 

I am sure there are Turks who know that, I may not be one of these as my area of expertise is historical linguistics and not sociology. However, if you are referring to basic civilised social thinking and commentary, I do not think I am particulary deficient there (and cannot say the same thing for all the members who post in this forum).

 

After some reflection, you may become one of those "teachers", without getting entangled in the Armenian issue per se.

 

I don't pretend to become a "teacher" in any field where I do not have the requisite formation. The Armenian issue is on my agenda because I see it as shackles on the feet of my nation that it needs to get rid of, which will not happen with the attitude that has prevailed until now. I do not deny that I also find it a moral obligation as a human being to face the issue squarely and call a spade a spade, but one person's, a thousand person's, or even a million person's doing so will not change things unless and until the state does.

 

My anonymity has nothing to do with the subject. I am not pretending to be a hero. And when I am a coward, I am so for the benefit of others, not mine. In any case, who I am is irrelevant.

 

I am not suggesting you to endanger your life or well-being. However, I am suggesting the "art of the possible".

 

Tb, you have to be physically here, living here, being exposed to what I am exposed to to comment on these points. You are not. You are comfortably sitting on your armchair miles away from here and can say what you want knowing full well nothing's ever gonna happen to you.

[aurguplu]

by the way, this thread was about turkey's eu membership, we seem to have lost the thread, don't we?

[Twilight Bark]

Whatever. While I think half of that figure is probably in the "I have a grandma that spoke Kurdish" category, the real point is that the state managed to invent a Turkish identity, when very little of it existed in 1920. Those that would describe themselves as first and foremost as "Turkish" probably formed a minority not larger than 25% (and perhaps much less) in the rump Ottoman Empire of that time. The transformation to today's synthesized Turkish identity was accomplished by an extremely aggressive, chauvinistic brainwashing campaign, whose main tool was the educational system (after the extermination or wholesale exile of the unassimilable, of course). Naturally, having limited resources, the success was not 100%. The rest is meaningless detail.

 

Well, your approach is indeed that of realpolitik. But your description of your approach is not. You have not touched what needs to be solved. And in fact you have shown outright hostility to what would constitute a real reconciliation and resolution.

 

... what?

 

Quite. And if you drop your pretense of being a negotiator, and focus your energy on educating your fellow citizens in non-chauvinistic thinking, you would be doing something that is indeed within your powers. Trying to accomplish a fake "result" by "negotiating" with people who don't have the power to change anything isn't exactly productive. Your desired "result" would be empty and fake, even if it occurred in real life. But much more so if it happens on this forum. I am suggesting you to do what is possible and immediately productive. Your proper audience is your fellow citizens, not Armenians.

 

While a contemporary "Turk" is a fairly well-defined creature, a contemporary "Armenian" is not. There are legions of "Armenians", whose sole connection to being an Armenian is the lack of full recognition that their ancestors did not hallucinate the genocide. In other words, a part of their psyche is still slavishly dependent on what the Turks may or may not do. And after a "recognition" and perhaps an "apology" (and it does not matter to them if it is uttered through clenched teeth, and is without substance), their "tie" to Armenianness is severed, as there is no longer a point to their "Armenianness". To think that satisfying that psychological need of the assimilated (and for all practical purposes, lost) "Armenians" by Machiavellian means is more important than resolving a fundamentally moral issue the right way is absurd. The issue is not about facilitating the transition of ex-Armenians into full assimilation into the western societies. In fact the issue has noting to do with what is acceptable to Armenians, or "Armenians". Do what you need to do in order to become a better people. And if you don't care to become a better people, don't.

 

If you have a way of changing the nature of your government ideology, go ahead. But do not expect to achieve anything worthwhile within the constraints imposed by that ideology, as it is today.

 

The disconnect of the "state" from the "people" is a holdover prom imperial and royal times, when the state's formal, "legitimate" function was to further the interest of an emperor or a small group of the "elite". The modern state, however, is supposed to represent the will and the character of the people behind it. When there is a significant disconnect, you brew trouble in democratic societies. And in less evolved societies, you have supposedly educated people defending the disconnect as if it must be a fact of life. Probably because they are not as "evolved" as they would like to believe. In which case, more time and effort need to be invested.

 

Because it is a silly generalization. And is in fact information-free when the perpetrator of the crimes are not defined. Was the state a result of a struggle in which those heinous crimes were committed by its founders, or by its enemies? Anyway, it is a silly argument.

 

What you are suggesting is also called "putting the cart in front of the horse".

 

I am referring to the conceptual "vocabulary" (or building blocks), and not the words or the terminology.

 

You have the concepts. However, you have fatal flaws in your application of them. But, I agree that you are not "particularly deficient".

 

Indeed.

 

If you are contemplating an academic career of any sort, then it is all you need.

 

Indeed, as I diagnosed before. But do not see it as Armenians' obligation to make unwarranted sacrifices and accept blatant inaccuracies in order to help your people achieve that.

 

And the rest of your post is basically irrelevant, so I'll conclude my post here.

 

[ November 18, 2002, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[Guest Fadi]

quote:

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by the way, this thread was about turkey's eu membership, we seem to have lost the thread, don't we?

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Is that so ? Only the title say so.

[THOTH]

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight Bark:

While a contemporary "Turk" is a fairly well-defined creature, a contemporary "Armenian" is not. There are legions of "Armenians", whose sole connection to being an Armenian is the lack of full recognition that their ancestors did not hallucinate the genocide. In other words, a part of their psyche is still slavishly dependent on what the Turks may or may not do. And after a "recognition" and perhaps an "apology" (and it does not matter to them if it is uttered through clenched teeth, and is without substance), their "tie" to Armenianness is severed, as there is no longer a point to their "Armenianness". To think that satisfying that psychological need of the assimilated (and for all practical purposes, lost) "Armenians" by Machiavellian means is more important than resolving a fundamentally moral issue the right way is absurd. The issue is not about facilitating the transition of ex-Armenians into full assimilation into the western societies. In fact the issue has noting to do with what is acceptable to Armenians, or "Armenians". Do what you need to do in order to become a better people. And if you don't care to become a better people, don't.

In some ways this strikes me as a very profound statement - but I think it is incomplete. I don't think it is only the Genocide that defines Armenians - but of course it must be the single most defining issue - as nearly all of us have been tremendously affected in a very similar manner. I for one am not willing to give up the memory of my slain kin though I admit it is difficult to know what would constitute an acceptable rekoning. And I don't quite understand what you are getting at when you state that Armenians of today fail to fully recognize that their ancestors did not hallucinate the Genocide. Just the opposite I should think. (please elaborate?)

 

I think that you are underestimating and discounting the very real pain that we (at least most of us) feel - I'm not sure why you seem to not feel this nor understand why this is of paramount importance to most Armenians...just as the Holocaust largely defines (pulls together) and sometimes pre-occupies Jews - as can certainly be expected under the circumstances I think. But this is not the only issue that makes one an Armenian or a Jew - even one who is largely assimilated as I am.

 

And I'm not so sure that most Armenians would be satisfied with a symbolic apology - though recognition alone will certainly remove some of the weight of the Genocide I think. And its clear to me that many Armenians see this issue very differently then you do - right or wrong - slavishly dependent on what Turks do or not (I do agree that this is a problem - particularly when it causes blindness...and total pre-occupation). Still I do agree that Turks need to come to terms with the Genocide more for themselves then for Armenians sake - though it obviously is still of great importance to most Armenians and I think that it will continue to be until at least some action is taken toward recognitin on the part of the Turks. .

[Twilight Bark]

Read more carefully, Thoth. That's not what I said. I said there are many "Armenians" whose main connection with Armenian identity is their psychological need for the world to know that their ancestors did not imagine the whole thing. Absent that, they are ready to move on to cultural oblivion.

 

I am not discounting the pain of thinking about and re-living the horror. I dread reading books about the genocide (in fact, any genocide); I find it traumatizing. However, my pain has little to do with whether the Turkish government made an empty, insincere declaration or not.

 

I didn't say anything about the "majority", as I don't know what the "majority" wants, especially when it is hard to define the relevant "whole". I made a factual statement about "many" Armenians.

 

So dear Thoth, I am afraid you misunderstood what I wrote.

[bellthecat]

Before we return to it, Ali, could you answer my question about where you found those "signs of improvement" showing that the plight of Armenian buildings in Turkey is improving?

[Guest Fadi]

quote:

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Originally posted by bellthecat:

quote:

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Originally posted by aurguplu:

by the way, this thread was about turkey's eu membership, we seem to have lost the thread, don't we?

---

Before we return to it, Ali, could you answer my question about where you found those "signs of improvement" showing that the plight of Armenian buildings in Turkey is improving?

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You'll have to wait untill every Armenian monuments are destroyed and there is no more left to destroy, in order that Ali answer and say, it is imporving because no more Armenian monuments are destroyed.

[Boghos]

This week´s The Economist has an editorial on Turkey´s EU membership. Nothing new really. More wishful thinking than anything, but worth reading anyway.

[gamavor]

When I said that the only way in which Turkey may join the Union is by dissolution of Turkey I was absolutely serious. Its a matter of simple arithmetic. A 70 million people nation (realistically it is no more than 60. During the last census many turks haven't reported the deceased for welfare purposes), if being accepted in the Union would drastically change the political status quo in the continent and naturally that would mean the end of Europe. Having in mind the decision making process in the yet not so well institutionalized Europe, accepting Turkey would mean having more turkish seats in the EU Parliament than Germany.(note that Luxembourg has 6 and Germany has 99).

Note also that the country whose acceptance is at stake is not Norway or Swiss. It is about Turkey.

 

More money more problems. In the case of Turkey, more land, more people more problems.

And with nice enemies like Greeks and Armenians, even more problems. Until the World turns.:-)

[Twilight Bark]

Dear Domino,

Thanks.

 

and

 

Dear Sip,

Thanks for stating the self-evident truth about my being the best Twilight Bark in the whole universe of Twilight Barks. In case the population of that universe exceeds one, and anyone doubts my superiority, I will refer them to your elegant proof on the more general case.

[aurguplu]

the "signs of improvement" did no specifically refer to armenian monuments, but to some greek churches/other monuments (in the marmara and aegean regions) that were in a gutted state when i had first seen them almost ten years ago, and that are being cleaned up today. i had thought the same could logically be applied to the armenian monuments (i may be wrong, of course).

 

i have not travelled extensively in the eastern portions of turkey, where most armenian monuments are/were.

[MartyRoss]

If Europe opens its doors to Turkey, then why not open them with the Maghreb countries, Egypt, Israel and Lebanon? Where would be then the identity of Europe ?

[axel]

Where would be then the identity of Europe ?

 

The european union is an abstract construct which is not concerned with identities. It is just a step towards the establishement of the world state. The "new world order" rests upon the destruction of national identities and traditional cultures.

[MartyRoss]

Are the United States of America also an abstract construct ?

[axel]

Are the United States of America also an abstract construct ?

 

à ton avis?

Edited January 29, 2004 by axel