Turkey's EU membership

MJ · November 13, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by Arpa:

Why do Armenians talk 999 times more about Turks and Turkey, 1000 times more about Jews and Israel?

Is this what is known as "ostrichism"? Don't we have anything to talk about? Do we know any armeniana? Is there an armeniana?

Is it too embarassing to talk about ourselves?

Arpa,

I think because "Armenian" is a vague and flawed concept if it is to be judged on the basis of biological categories. Within the next several decades there will be a continuing filtering and things would be naturally put in perspective. Till then there will be a struggle for the crystallization of the notion of Armenian identity.

THOTH · November 14, 2002

TB -

very well said. This is the point I was basically getting at when I said "demographics". And fundementally there needs to be a major shift in attitude and culture in Turkey for them to be a viable EU candidate. I think if the Turks could pull this off - and it is a very big "if" - their nation would be improved imensly (and Genocide recognition and reconcilliation would likely not even be a major issue...it would naturally occur)....however I don't see that any of this will likely occur anytime soon...shame. However, even with the racial issue (which I believe is certainly an issue...though it is culture driven as well)...I fear that once again - Turkey will exploit itsgeostrategic position for special advantage and (again) be allowed to get away with less then ideal compliance to western expectations and somehow gain membership...I think this would be disaster for all parties concerned (including Armenians)...and would amount to a major farce. My brain tells me that in this case it is unliekly...but my gut always worries otherwise....

[ November 13, 2002, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

aurguplu · November 14, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by Twilight Bark:

quote:

Originally posted by aurguplu:

a turkish jaw drops in amazement...

Why?

The fact that I am often irritated by your realpolitik talk and (perhaps unintended) lack of sincerity does not mean that I wish the Turks ill. To the contrary, my position on this issue is entirely consistent with the rest of my positions.

quote:

turks have neither the power nor the inclination to conquer anything anymore, besides, europeans are not weak, either. it's over.

I was referring to something like a "forced marriage". As for the desire to conquer, I have to disagree. Just read the colorful sheets of cellulose that pass as "newspaper" in Turkey. A soccer team doesn't just win a game in a european city, they "conquer" it. A succesful concert by a Turkish singer in a foreign city is nothing short of a "conquest". The culture of conquest is still very much embedded right under the surface.

And the inclination to absorb, assimilate and grow bigger as a desirable end in itself is very much alive in the Turkish culture. In fact, that facet has been emphasized and nurtured by the Republic since its foundation.

tb,

1. i stick to realpolitik because it is real, not necessarily because i like it so much.

2. i don't want to get into yet another row about my sincerity, but it must have been obvious by now. of course, having opinions that differ from yours and arriving at different conclusions from the same set of data are not to be interpreted as insincerity, i hope.

3. no, tb, your past postings and the present one are not entirely consistent with one another. but o.k., i accept the present one.

4. to quote the trash that passes for press in turkey, especially the sports and magazine pages to fathom the turkish psyche on the eu, well, really, tb, you can do better than that, can't you?

And the inclination to absorb, assimilate and grow bigger as a desirable end in itself is very much alive in the Turkish culture.

i think that is very much alive in many cultures. britain and (especially usa) certainly have it, as do russia and in a different fashion, germany. all nations that were once big and mighty tend to dream of the "good old days" and might have some ideas in the back of their minds to get big and mighty again. the thing is, most people are aware of practical and impractical ideas, as are we. do you really think that turks are so stupid as to seriously contemplate any "conquest" in the military fashion in europe?

In fact, that facet has been emphasized and nurtured by the Republic since its foundation.

you are grieviously wrong there. that facet has been crushed, erased, polished to extinction and generally made to disappear. we could have gotten some of the aegean islands after the wwii (they had been under italian rule), and we didn't bother. özal's chief of staff had resigned when he discovered that he was made to sign blank sheets of paper onto which were later typed offensive orders during the gulf war (özal was contemplating mosul and kirkuk, and the military was telling loudly that we couldn't get there).

you flunked that one, tb.

Twilight Bark · November 14, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by aurguplu:

1. i stick to realpolitik because it is real, not necessarily because i like it so much.

Realpolitik involves divorcing morality and all the enlightened values (which make humans profound creatures) from the interaction of states or entities. It is repugnant, and it is no more real than moral principles and self-respect. Need for much evolution here on your part.

quote:

2. i don't want to get into yet another row about my sincerity, but it must have been obvious by now. of course, having opinions that differ from yours and arriving at different conclusions from the same set of data are not to be interpreted as insincerity, i hope.

I am not talking about differing opinions. I am talking about inconsistency between declarations and crystal-clear intentions and priorities.

quote:

3. no, tb, your past postings and the present one are not entirely consistent with one another.

Then please be kind enough to demonstrate it so that I can fix the alleged incosistencies in my thought system. If you cannot, please do not make such a declaration.

quote:

4. to quote the trash that passes for press in turkey, especially the sports and magazine pages to fathom the turkish psyche on the eu, well, really, tb, you can do better than that, can't you?

Those "newspapers" are infinitely more representative of popular culture than your quoting yourself in response to my saying that Turks are indignant at being snubbed by the EU. In fact, they are the "best" anyone can do to sum up the state of the culture at large.

quote:

And the inclination to absorb, assimilate and grow bigger as a desirable end in itself is very much alive in the Turkish culture.

i think that is very much alive in many cultures. britain and (especially usa) certainly have it, as do russia and in a different fashion, germany. all nations that were once big and mighty tend to dream of the "good old days" and might have some ideas in the back of their minds to get big and mighty again. the thing is, most people are aware of practical and impractical ideas, as are we. do you really think that turks are so stupid as to seriously contemplate any "conquest" in the military fashion in europe?

I don't recall talking about Turkish armies marching across Europe. Perhaps I was not clear enough; I was talking about "conquest" in metaphorical sense, culturally and identitywise. Turkey has had a huge success in transforming a hodge-podge of muslim remnants (after killing off or exiling the Christians) into "Turks". As a glaring example, the huge number of Balkan refugees did not view themselves as "Turks" at the time, but their descendants certainly do. And the same story is repeated for all the muslim ethnic groups that were left in the rump Ottoman Empire that became Turkey. The 10-12% Kurdish minority is simply a remnant of a very succesful but imperfect assimilation campaign. As you would agree, the Turkish nationalism is largely non-racist. It essentially views non-Turkish ethnic identity within its borders as some sort of a temporary ailment that needs to be fixed with a proper dose of brainwashing and assimilation. That's what I am talking about. And I never claimed that Turks were the only ones with such instincts. However, they represent one of the best practical implementations of such mentality.

quote:

In fact, that facet has been emphasized and nurtured by the Republic since its foundation.

quote:

you are grieviously wrong there. that facet has been crushed, erased, polished to extinction and generally made to disappear.

See my response above.

quote:

you flunked that one, tb.

Balderdash.

gamavor · November 14, 2002

Dissolution of Turkey is the only way in which turks may join the Union. That way Armenia might have European border:-). Until then they might do so by joining it individually. Lets hope that those individuals will learn to use flashing water in the toilets instead of secret hidden empty bottles, lets hope that they will shave their faces at least 2 times a week, lets hope that they will not beat their wives in public and will not teach their children how to steal goods from grocery stores.

PS: Turkish army numbers 620 000 circumcised “soldiers”. The best way to deal with them is to figure out who is the “*****”. As the old Armenian saying goes “Kill the ***** first”, and the rest will be gone with the wind. In addition to that number, turkish military relay on 500 000 gendarmes, who are kind of “modern” bashibozuk. They are easy to offset. One thing Turks are good in is Air force. But I think Russians will deal with that.

nairi · November 14, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by gamavor:

Lets hope that those individuals will learn to use flashing water in the toilets instead of secret hidden empty bottles, lets hope that they will shave their faces at least 2 times a week, lets hope that they will not beat their wives in public and will not teach their children how to steal goods from grocery stores.

And not live off our taxes...

Boghos · November 15, 2002

Oh, no, TB you flunked again .

aurguplu · November 15, 2002

tb,

i shall address all of the points you have raised in time, but shall address a few here:

1. the kurds are not 10% but about 25-30%. so if this was a successful assimilation campaign, what would it be like if it weren't? for your info: there are probably 21 million kurds in turkey today, more than at any time in history (in fact, the entire population of anatolia was never much above 24 million in preindustrial times). so much for your "successful" assimilation campaign.

2. realpolitik versus morality: why do i stick to realpolitik rather than morality? simple: i am interested in positive results for both sides of the conflict. the genocide is many things: it is a crime, it is a tragedy, it is an example of man's inhumanity to man, it is a bitter lesson, etc. etc., it is also a practical problem to be solved. i cannot undo the crime. i cannot bring back the dead. i cannot uncry the tears, i cannot erase the memories, etc. etc., but if i can find enough people on both sides i can contribute to the eventual recognition of the genocide and thus, partial healing of the wound. as many armenians have expressed, genocide recognition and apology are key to the healing of the armenian psyche. we opened the wound, we have to help heal it. here is a bit of the morality you were asking, if you know what i mean. but to get both sides to find common ground - for there will be no recognition unless and until there is common ground - you have to do some practical work, and that involves realpolitik, tb, not morality. states have always been products of heinous crimes, and the turkish one is neither the first nor the last in that respect. the winners of this world, the bosses, have not been bosses by following moral codes. and i am not a boss in my country. i have to play by the rules and flex them as much as i can without breaking them. if i break them, they can break me back.

you see? i am walking a very tight rope. it's easy to post your stuff from wherever you are, but i am posting mine from here, and with my real name and not my nickname. come post from turkey with your real name if you dare and then we'll be talking, man.

aurguplu · November 15, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by bellthecat:

quote:

Originally posted by aurguplu:

To the best of my knowledge, no armenian church is being destroyed today. the bulk of the destruction took place between 1915-1923, and continued until about the 1970s. since the 1980s, actual destruction more or less stopped and as far as i know in the 1990s some reversal has begun.

Ali, your knowledge is nothing to boast about on this subject. I am curious as to where you get your information.

There is barely a single Armenian church that is protected from destruction and, far from diminshing, the rate of destruction is increasing. With maybe a dozen exceptions, I expect that there will be almost nothing left within a decade.

Steve

i live in this country, travel around, and revisit places i first visited years ago.

i have not been able to do so much for the past four years, but until then, i kept seeing some signs of improvement here and there.

i don't deny that some destruction may still be going on, but there is some reversal as well.

bellthecat · November 15, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by aurguplu:

quote:

Originally posted by bellthecat:

Ali, your knowledge is nothing to boast about on this subject. I am curious as to where you get your information.

There is barely a single Armenian church that is protected from destruction and, far from diminshing, the rate of destruction is increasing. With maybe a dozen exceptions, I expect that there will be almost nothing left within a decade.

Steve

i live in this country, travel around, and revisit places i first visited years ago.

i have not been able to do so much for the past four years, but until then, i kept seeing some signs of improvement here and there.

i don't deny that some destruction may still be going on, but there is some reversal as well.

Ali, I am certain that I have travelled much more widely in your county than you have.

For Armenian churches in Turkey there has, is, and always will be, nothing but destruction, destruction, destruction. Year after year after year of it. There is no reversal.

The total destruction of all recognisable Armenian monuments in Turkey is an inevitable consequence of and integral part of the Armenian Genocide. It is not reversable, any more than the Genocide is reversable. Even if the Turkish government were to change its policy regarding the Genocide the monuments still would not be saved. A few, like Ani or Aght'amar, would be destroyed by Turkish-style "restoration", the rest would still be left to the pickaxes and shovels of treasure hunters, to the bulldozers of property developers, to the dynamite of religious or Turanic fanatics, or to the simple effects of 90 years of dereliction. As far as I am aware, to date, not one lira has been spent by the Turkish state towards preserving any Armenian church. So, give us some examples of your signs of improvement!

-e- · November 16, 2002

hey bell, are you the same steve from armenianhighland.com?

what a character this son of a turk is...

http://www.armenianhighland.com/guestbook/book.html

-e- · November 16, 2002

T-Bark, i remember you from AR's forum. You now sound so polite, so nice and well educated. One only needs to go back and read your posts in the other forums in order to see your true face.

p.s. you also used to post in the Serbian site, right?

Sip · November 16, 2002

Wow easy dude! Are you sure it's the same Tbark? There are probably billions of Tbarks in the universe But our Twilight Bark is the best (it can be proven )

Twilight Bark · November 16, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by aurguplu:

i shall address all of the points you have raised in time

Good luck.

quote:

1. the kurds are not 10% but about 25-30%. so if this was a successful assimilation campaign, what would it be like if it weren't? for your info: there are probably 21 million kurds in turkey today, more than at any time in history (in fact, the entire population of anatolia was never much above 24 million in preindustrial times). so much for your "successful" assimilation campaign.

I was of course not referring to genes or ancestry, which cannot be change by assimilation or brainwashing. If you want me to believe that 30% of the population see themselves as Kurdish in any way that matters (other than saying "I had a grandmother that spoke Kurdish"), perhaps you will have better luck with selling bridges. In any case, whatever the percentages, the Republic has been very succesful in synthesizing a Turkish identity out of almost noting through brainwashing. Where the central "education" could not reach because of lack of resources, it of course failed to do that. That is beside the point.

quote:

2. realpolitik versus morality: why do i stick to realpolitik rather than morality? simple: i am interested in positive results for both sides of the conflict.

Realpolitik and "the art of the possible" are two very different things. I am beginning to believe that you are sincere in your disingenuousness. How was that Sip?

quote:

the genocide is many things: it is a crime, it is a tragedy, it is an example of man's inhumanity to man, it is a bitter lesson, etc. etc., it is also a practical problem to be solved. i cannot undo the crime. i cannot bring back the dead. i cannot uncry the tears, i cannot erase the memories, etc. etc.,

You are saying it as if I have asked you to do these things. If that is the kind of straw-man you had to come up with, my positions must have been quite valid.

quote:

but if i can find enough people on both sides i can contribute to the eventual recognition of the genocide and thus, partial healing of the wound. as many armenians have expressed, genocide recognition and apology are key to the healing of the armenian psyche. we opened the wound, we have to help heal it. here is a bit of the morality you were asking, if you know what i mean.

I am personally not wounded a bit by the lack of recognition by Turkey, or apology. However, I would very much love to see Turkey evolve to a level where those things would come naturally, not only for Armenians, but for the Turks as well. I have zero interest in achieving those superficial results by realpolitik. And I would expect sensible Armenians as well as sensible Turks would think along the same lines.

quote:

but to get both sides to find common ground - for there will be no recognition unless and until there is common ground - you have to do some practical work, and that involves realpolitik, tb, not morality.

The common ground that is worthwhile to find will be found when the Turkish population slowly but surely evolves sufficiently. If Turkey were under a quasi-colonial rule as Germany and Japan were at the end of WWII, some "acceleration" of the process would be practical, desirable, and welcome. But it is not. The prerequisite enlightenment for a true resolution simnply cannot be achieved by Machiavellian negotiations.

quote:

states have always been products of heinous crimes,

I won't bite that bait.

quote:

and the turkish one is neither the first nor the last in that respect. the winners of this world, the bosses, have not been bosses by following moral codes. and i am not a boss in my country. i have to play by the rules and flex them as much as i can without breaking them. if i break them, they can break me back.
you see? i am walking a very tight rope.

I have previously acknowledged the difficulty of expressing truly relevant and truly enlightened viewpoints from your position. And I said I would understand it if you became silent because of it. However, there is much "sneaky" education one can do without breaking the rules. Less glamorous perhaps, but the only thing that can be done. Turks need to learn the basic vocabulary of enlightened social thinking and commentary before arriving at the "common ground". After some reflection, you may become one of those "teachers", without getting entangled in the Armenian issue per se.

quote:

it's easy to post your stuff from wherever you are, but i am posting mine from here, and with my real name and not my nickname.

My anonymity has nothing to do with the subject. I am not pretending to be a hero. And when I am a coward, I am so for the benefit of others, not mine. In any case, who I am is irrelevant.

quote:

come post from turkey with your real name if you dare and then we'll be talking, man.

I am not suggesting you to endanger your life or well-being. However, I am suggesting the "art of the possible".

MosJan · November 16, 2002

chgitem ov ova sakayn en gitem vor *Zarzand@ moratsela ir WebSit-i guest book@ kardal mek mek /

yes kartsum eyi indz mota sarsapeli / orakan kam amen 2-3 or@ mi 50 hat apushutyun jnjum enq - bayts te *Zarzandi guest book@ tvets antsav mez

jisht haskatseq web pag@ shat em sirum sakayn p-etq e ushadrutyun darstnel i verjo te voch ?

mekn el lini indz asi 4 amisa vochinch chem arel he ha

*zarzand - one of teh founders of http://www.armenianhighland.com

gamavor · November 16, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by Eduard Markosyan:

hey bell, are you the same steve from armenianhighland.com?

what a character this son of a turk is...

http://www.armenianhighland.com/guestbook/book.html

No, he is not that Steve. The last post of Bell is the Cat that I like:)

Twilight Bark · November 16, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by Eduard Markosyan:

T-Bark, i remember you from AR's forum. You now sound so polite, so nice and well educated. One only needs to go back and read your posts in the other forums in order to see your true face.

p.s. you also used to post in the Serbian site, right?

Eduard,

What are you talking about? I certainly did not post anything on AR's forum, or any other mental-health related forums. Armenian Cafe is the only forum on which I posted anything (and unlikely to happen again). And the "worst" of my postings on Armenian Cafe were my ill-considered attempts at bringing some semblance of reason and civility to that forum when it was being razed by the likes of AR and "Steve" (certainly nothing to do with Bellthecat of this forum). However, if you would be kind enough to post the links to these postings, I would have a chance to see what the potential impostor has been up to. And why on earth would I post on a Serbian forum? I assure you, I am not some idle net-warrior with time to kill. In fact, I have to justify to myself the time it takes to type each posting.

Again, thanks in advance if you could post a link to the posts you had in mind. Not that there is much I can do about it. I don't have the copyright to any of the monikers. Come to think of it, I don't even have a copyright to my real name!

TB

November 17, 2002

Eduard

Why not explaining your history in forums ? How come do you know the Serbian cafe or the Armenian cafe, only some frequenting those forums for long would have this kind of memory problem mixing TB posts with others.

Just for the interest could you give your nickname in those other boards ? I mean, the reason why you are mixing TB with others, is because his uses of the same nickname in the Armenian cafe, while you have hidded on different nicknames. What are you hidding ?

Sip · November 17, 2002

But do we really care about the other forums? Let's just stick to what we have here and not try to bring trash from other forums to be discussed here. Just my .02

-e- · November 17, 2002

t-bark, :)h p r baby. you almost broke my heart. mental-health related forums, no copyright to any of the monikers let's see, what is left there(?) net-worrior with [no] time to kill haha just like the stars in the sky, "there are billions of Tbarks in the universe"

Domino:why not explaining your history in forums? how come do you know the serbian cafe or the armenian cafe

hey:) welcome to the planet earth. we, the people of earth, sometimes do subject related search. do you at least know what that means?

Domino: for long would have this kind of memory problem mixing TB posts with others.

w w, do you know that for fact? can you prove it?

Domino:just for the interest

hey:) something tells me that you can get interested to know about some stuff too could that also be a forum?

Domino:could you give your nickname in those other boards?

i would, if you were at least polite enough to ask it in a nice way

Domino:I mean, the reason why you are mixing TB with others?

you are not TB, by any chance, are you? how can you know for fact that i am mixing TB with others? hey, i forgot:) you are a santa-claus -you know just about everything (no sarcasm, i hope:) )

Domino:is because his uses of the same nickname in the armenian cafe?

did i ever say that he was in the armenian cafe?

Domino:while you have hidded on different nicknames

something like???

Domino:what are you hidding?

in fact, what are YOU hidding? why are you afraid of using your real name? and why to ask such provocative question? are you up to something?

November 17, 2002

1- Provide evidences that TB has ever posted in AR forum, and if prove this "One only needs to go back and read your posts in the other forums in order to see your true face."

2- Provide evidences that TB has posted in the Serbian cafe.

If you can't, my allegation that you mixing TB postings in the Armenian cafe with others, would be statistically accurate, because while he did post there, you have to prove that he posted.

1- At AR cafe and "One only needs to go back and read your posts in the other forums in order to see your true face."

2- At the Serbian cafe

If you can't, my allegation of you mixing would be confirmed.

As the rest of what you posted, I guess its my limited English, but I have not understand a s... about it, sorry for my dumbness.

Regards

[ November 16, 2002, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

November 17, 2002

quote:

But do we really care about the other forums? Let's just stick to what we have here and not try to bring trash from other forums to be discussed here. Just my .02

Exactlly,

-e- · November 17, 2002

T-Bark: However, if you would be kind enough to post the links to these postings, I would have a chance to see what the potential impostor has been up to.

here is the link:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/178855

Domino, you too can search the site before i direct you to the exact postings.

November 17, 2002

Look Eduard, I have no time to search in the trash can(AR forum) if you have the quotes bring them to me. As far as my memory goes, I never have seen any of TB posts in AR forum, neither at the Serbian cafe, I may be wrong, I am human, but you allege that TB has shown his true face there(AR forum), but I see nothing of that sort, more to this, I have even not seen any evidences that he even did posted there.

Its none of my business if he posted there or not, here it is the hyeforum, and problems from other boards should not be brought here, but your allegation against a member without any evidences is a diffamation and is under the belt, you only show your weakness and your innability to discuss by diverting and hidding that inability behind your slander, this sort of attack I have recieved a lot in places like Turkey.com where people were recording everyone of my moves in every forums I frequent, and then bringing those things against me because they can not discuss concerning the presented topic. And they do it under many different aliases. So this is why I ask you the aliases you use to go after TB, and we shall see if you are better placed then him to trow the first rock.

-e- · November 17, 2002

Domino: look eduard, i have no time to search in the trash(ar forum) if you have the quotes bring them to me.

i only wish i would have that free time to search the site. but it will be done, anyway.

Domino:as far as my momory goes, I never have seen any of TB posts in Ar forum. neighter at the serbian cafe. i may be wrong, i am human,

as soon as the search is done, you'll know about the results. i don't think my momory betrayes me up to the point that i can be mistaken...just give me a time until tomorrow night.

Domino: its none of my business if he posted there or not, ...but your allegation against a member without any evidence is a diffamation and is under the belt, you only show your weakness and your innability to discuss by diverting and hidding that inability behind your slander

if you continue, soon you'll have a good novel based on nothing. there was NEVER a discussion between i and t-bark. therefore, there wasn't even a need to divert and hidden any inability.

Domino: this sort of attack i have recieved a lot in places like turkey.com where people were recoding everyone of my moves in every forums i frequent, and then bringing those things against me because they can not discuss concerning the presented topic

and again. you were involved in discussing issues with them, and they have used your words against you. the pain you feel of being spied on has nothing to do with t-bark being told that he uses different strategy in different forums.

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