Turkey's EU membership

[Boghos]

Ali, Ali, try to exercise some self-control old boy. Don´t let anger dominate you. I know you have a problem with that, but it is not healthy at all.

 

The rules of the forum don´t mention anything about despicable people. But even if they did and hence would support your banishment, I would be against it. You amuse me.

 

[ November 08, 2002, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[-e-]

"1. we don't wear masks, especially when dealing with the enemy(and you guys are not exactly in the friends category, you know that, don't you?)"

 

LOLOLOLOLOLOL so who is??? do you have friends at all?

 

"2. i don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence or anything, but the following remarks may be offensive to some, even though that's not the intention (i repeat, that's not the intention):"

 

:)poor baby. i know you didn't mean to kill hundreds of thousands of armenians in the Syrian desert...but they just have died, huh?

 

"we are a mojor reginal power 70 million strong"

 

since when quantity has become a quality?

 

"our current problems are great and many"

 

anything new???

 

"but the armenian issue is not one of them."

 

:)that is why you had to call your ambassador back from Paris, right?

 

"the armenian problem recurs only on every 24th april"

 

so what exactly happens 'on every 24th april'?

 

"or whenever turkey atempts to get somehing from teh eu/usa/russia that these guys don't want to give, or when they want to wrench somethign out of us that we don't want to give."

 

and you said you have so many friends:)

 

"you are a pawn i their hands."

 

correct me if i am wrong. don't suck a yanki d*** for an entry to eu? not to mention that after all this years of being in the international welfare system, you still beg for money.

 

"sorry to say this, but your interests are-and have never been-anyone else's priority(the same could of course be said of many other nations, including us)."

 

ali, how many times have you been droped down on your head? haven't you been told that in a game for survival, each thinks for his own interests?

 

"i am one of those few turks who concede that we share by far the greater part of the blame in that "problem"(the ag)"

 

oh you broke my heart:) poor ali. look boy, we have couple of good turkish friends who do their beast to sovle this problem. yet at no give time they have cama out to lie and to offer a conditional solution.

 

"but putting up with insults or arrogance on your part is not one of them."

 

you said you are an honet person, aren't you? why in the world then you care about an arrogant men like me. you make your own choices, don't you? oh i see, you get offended when one speaks the truth. you don't like to be told that you wear masts, huh?

 

"so i suggest you take a close look at us and just see:"

 

what the hell you think we been doing for the past 900 yers?

 

"we don't have masks, we have a face,"

 

how does it look like?

 

"it's an ugly one, especially seen from you perspective,"

 

you see how you contradict yourself. first you quote me by saying that you have no face, then you claim that by my standards you have an agly face.

 

"but at least we are not trying to hide anything."

 

says who?

 

"we also do not see any need to hide anything from you, or plainly speaking, couldn't be bothered with it: you are not that important for us."

 

))YES, yes...to be paid to spend countless hours in an armenians forum means nothing to you.

 

"sorry if this counds offensive or arrogant(i intended neither)"

 

but you meant it, right?

 

"but things had to be put into the right perspective"

 

and this is another way of saying my way or no way, huh? btw, didn't you just say that you "do not see see any need to hide anything from me(you), or plainly speaking, couldn't be bothered with it"

 

now the main question is...WHY TO BOTHER IN THE FIRST PLACE???

[Guest Fadi]

quote:

---

you have to realise that we don't have a problem with you, but you have a problem with us. i am one of those few turks who concede that we share by far the greater part of the blame in that "problem" (the ag), and are prepared to do what we can to solve/make good for it, but putting up with insults or arrogance on your part is not one of them.

---

Ali, can you tell me what you really mean with "concede" ? Because if you view this as a "concession" then Armenians don't need your concessions, recognising that your part has the great part of the blame is only a constatation and not a concession, we gain nothing from your said "concession" as Armenian, and you lose nothing by your alleged concession. I don;t post this as an offense, but I have enought of this believe that all this is about not "conceding" the enemy anything... I don't blame you, because that believe that every exchanges with the exterior world is about concession and gain against the "enemy", is what the "father of the Turks" and the Kemalistic regime was able to program in the psyche of the Turkish nation.

 

No one need your concessions Ali sorry.

 

[ November 07, 2002, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Guest Fadi]

[ November 07, 2002, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[THOTH]

Ali -

 

Unlike many others here I don't think your such a bad guy. I don't see eye to eye with you on many things - and see many of the critiscims of some of your statements here as valid - but I think I have an appeciation of why you say what you do and why you have some of the views that you hold. Again - I don't think that exchanging insults or driving people away will get us anywhere - and I do think it important that our message (basically the truth) is heard by as many Turks as possible - even if only a few will perhaps ever be able to digest it.

 

So others here see you as disengenuous and playing a game with us - I don't agree. I do think that you are somewhat blind as to why certain assertions and positions you take are very angering to Armenians. I know you view yourself as one who is compromisng and being very progressive just by talking to us civily and acknolwedging the Genocide etc - but in fact this is not enough. I think you have much baggage still to shed to fully appreciate this issue (in your heart) and aquire the "right" perspective (concerning what matters most in terms of truth and human justice).

 

Of course many on "our" side also suffer from biases, blocks and such (many here will say that I do...and I am sure that they are correct) and I think that we too can benefit from a better understanding of why you (and other Turks) hold certain positions...and some here may not even be aware of certain facts/perspectives and such that you might understand (though many of us do understand some of these things - but still may disagree with your conclusions and/or perspective). Even in disagreeing it is important to be able to understand other perspectives - IMO.

 

Anyway I do wish to counter one assertion that you (and other educated Turks I have come accross) continually make - that of Turkish apathy towards the Armenian issues. I think when you say this - and I understand what it is you are saying - it must be caveated. The "common" Turk just does not have much exposure to this issue and tends to not worry about it much anyway - being more concerned with daily matters of life - just as most Americans are probably only dimly aware of the nuances (or even existance) of most national and international political/economic issues (at best). Additionally - your elites have many other pressing problems/immediate concerns/threats/etc - and the "Armenian Issue" ranks low on the radar scope - except of course when media attention makes it visible...(Ararat movie comes out in a few days BTW...). Still I must disagree with this concept that the Turks (as a group) are not very concerned about the "Armenian issue". As proof I offer the following URLs for your viewing pleasure:

 

http://www.eraren.org/

 

http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupe/eh/eh08/default.htm

 

http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupe/eh/eh11/default.htm

 

http://www.turkishforum.com/

 

http://www.ataa.org/

 

http://www.tadf.org/duyurular/samweems.htm

 

http://www.ksu.edu.tr/ermeni/

 

http://www.geocities.com/t_volunteer/armen...enian/index.htm

 

http://www.tetedeturc.com/Armenien/default-armen.htm

 

http://www.armenianreality.com/campaign/ca...ian_lobbies.asp

 

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/arastirma/tw007-01.htm

 

http://www.turkses.com/index.asp#top

 

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/

 

http://www.armenianallegations.com/

[-e-]

Seems the rules of the game have changed. Now we are supposed to deal with the BAD-TURKS* & the GOOD-TURKS*. The bad turks are those who will always be in power, and will always deny the armenian genocide. The supposed good-turks, on the other hand, will always try to convince that they are our friend who understand and feel out pain.

 

I knew that being ignorant was not en excuse for not knowing about the genocide commited in the country where one would live. But to be an IDIOT and to blame the victim for his/her natural reaction against the pain that is caused by the enemy(?)...THIS IS ALREADY TOO MUCH!!!

 

http://www.omroep.nl/human/tv/muur/W_O_S/artikel.htm

 

http://15levels.com/24.April/index-a.html

 

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

 

http://www.cilicia.com/armo10.html

 

http://www.armeniangenocideposters.org/vot...ing/posters.asp

[-e-]

Hey Ali, do you have anything to say about the armenian women who were killed by their azeri husbands? BTW, we also had our beloved azeri brothers to drive all armenians out of Naxijevan. Have you forgotten that the azeri-turks and the armenains were called brothers for about 70 years? What happened? Didn't we trust you up to the point when we even refused to talk about the Armenian genocide and the armenian soldiers who were killed by their own generals in the turkish army?

 

You think you just can come and start to reason in a time when the wounds are still not healed? You think i care about how ignorant the turks in turkey are that they don't even bother ask a simple question about the Christian churches that are in all over Turkey? Why you think i should care about your people being so ingorant when i can see the children of Artsax have gotten an education in a time when the azeri-turks were killing their own brothers and sisters?

 

For the God's sake, why don't you start the healing process by telling your government to stop destroying the Armenian churches?

 

..and who are you after all? Are you representing your people or you are just a turk who want to build a relationship with the armenians? Why in the world the Armenians have to listen to you? You think we care about your frienship that comes with conditions?

[Boghos]

[ November 08, 2002, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[THOTH]

Hey stuff it Boghos!

 

Look - I can't help it if you're already getting bitter and nasty because of "sexual withdraw" or such after less then one year of marraige. (and I thought they had lots of prostitutes in Brazil - so whats your excuse?). Please try to not take out your frustrations on forum members because of your personal issues...no need to not be polite...

 

But yes, I can disagree with Ali on some fundemental things and still be civil and apreciate his perspective and his attempts to understand us (well - I'm hoping for the latter anyway...). I think you guys are just spoiled - take a look at the web sites I linked to above and see the true ugly faces of some Turks. So yes - I feel that Ali is deserving of some respect and civility even if we don't agree with all he concludes. And I know I may be in the minority - but I think that he is on the level - from his perspective. And yes - I know that most Armenians fail to appreciate Turkish realities. I don't see myself as an apoligist for the Turks - even though in specific cases I may play that role (as counterpoint). Turkey and the Turks (in general) have tremendous problems/issues IMO - but that does not me we can't consider these (Genocide/political etc) issues with more balance and not always be on the attack. Look i am as frustrated and angry with the Turks (nation/government/some of the people) as any other Armenian.

 

And I can't help it if you feel you need to get your jolies by mocking me. I don't care if you disagree with me - but why the need to express it in such a juvinielle way? OK - my perspective differs from yours - doesn't mean that you are right and I am wrong - and you are mistaken if you think my positions have no basis. I stand by my statements. Perhaps my wording has not been ideal and i have not made my points clearly - fine (certainly your synopsis bears little on the reality of my position - IMO)

[aurguplu]

rouben,

 

the population of turkey must be something like 70-72 million by now (last census was in 2000, where we were 67.5 m officially, but there is very widespread suspicion that that left some 2 m kurds out of the census).

 

the armed forces must be around 550,000 if i am not mistaken. if i remember correctly that figure had reached a high of over 700,000 sometime during the past two decades, and then gradually declined. now that the war in the southeast is practically finished, and the army is geting modernised, the numbers are dropping (there is very severe pressure on the army to cut down in size).

 

hope this helps,

 

cheers,

[aurguplu]

to concede means to accept some fact that you are not at ease with. the ag is a fact, and as a turk i am not at ease with it, the same way that the holocaust is a fact and a german can be forgiven for not being at ease with it.

 

i don't recall having said/implied that anyone needed my concessions by the way.

[aurguplu]

Originally posted by Berj:

[QB]RUSSIAN NEWSPAPER: TURKEY MUST LEARN TO BEHAVE LIKE A CIVILIZED COUNTRY

 

look who is talking!

[Boghos]

[ November 08, 2002, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[Guest Fadi]

ALi, to concede, means giving this, its like you are doing us a favour... and if we read your posts, we can conclude the same as well. You are not doing us any favour.

[aurguplu]

Originally posted by Eduard Markosyan:

[QB]Hey Ali, do you have anything to say about the armenian women who were killed by their azeri husbands?

 

hey markos, the same things happened in the bosnian war, too: we have loads of bosnian women whose children were killed by their serbian fathers.

 

i don't think we should get into mutual mud-slinging because if we do all we will get is a lot of mud on both of our faces. when confronted with a serbian, i would first ask him about what he thought about that sort of thing and then judge the person, and would refrain from condemning the serbians as a nation for eternity. after all, pretty much every human group has done comparable things some time in their past. the fact that some hasn't come down in writing, others have not been sufficiently published, and still others are extinct peoples' tragedies, does not chance this. we are not unique in our crime, nor are you unique in your suffering. nothing diminishes our guilt, but that doesn't mean that everyone on your side of the divide was an angel either.

 

Have you forgotten that the azeri-turks and the armenains were called brothers for about 70 years?

 

no, in fact i didn't know that: i had met a very few soviets just prior to the collapse of the soviet union, only two were part armenian, and they did not particularly like the azeris.

 

What happened? Didn't we trust you up to the point when we even refused to talk about the Armenian genocide and the armenian soldiers who were killed by their own generals in the turkish army?

 

again, that i don't know. maybe an azeri would be better placed to answer. the armenians that i knew rarely let me forget that there was a genocide.

 

You think you just can come and start to reason in a time when the wounds are still not healed?

 

the wounds will not be healed unless and until civilian people take actions to heal them. i am a civilian, and i take my actions. and it takes time. do you know the sort of replies i get over here when i say that the ag is a fact and not a myth?

 

You think i care about how ignorant the turks in turkey are that they don't even bother ask a simple question about the Christian churches that are in all over Turkey?

 

i am afraid you are wrong there, eduard: turks are asking an enormous number of questions and during the last decade they have started doing more than just asking questions. a lot of churches are being restored now (but i am not proud of the quality of restauration, that's another matter).

 

Why you think i should care about your people being so ingorant when i can see the children of Artsax have gotten an education in a time when the azeri-turks were killing their own brothers and sisters?

 

what sort of education are you talking about?

 

For the God's sake, why don't you start the healing process by telling your government to stop destroying the Armenian churches?

 

to the best of my knowledge, no armenian church is being destroyed today. the bulk of the destruction took place between 1915-1923, and continued until about the 1970s. since the 1980s, actual destruction more or less stopped and as far as i know in the 1990s some reversal has begun.

 

..and who are you after all? Are you representing your people or you are just a turk who want to build a relationship with the armenians? Why in the world the Armenians have to listen to you? You think we care about your frienship that comes with conditions?

 

i am just a turk who wants to contribute to the ending of the blood feud between the two nations. i have not been given a mandate by anyone/any organisation/institution etc. to represent anyone or any opinion. i am just here to express myself and listen to your replies. my friendship (i am not imposing my "friendship, by the way, you don't have to be my "friend" to discuss with me online) comes with no more conditions than any other friendship comes with: mutual sincerity, manners and respect.

[aurguplu]

thoth,

 

i agree with your points above. the thing is i fear the top of my head blew off again - not a good habit, maybe being mediterranean has something to do with it .

 

anyway, the thing is you tend to give the sort of replies that you get. if you get a nice diplomatic guy, you give nice diplomatic replies. if you get insults, well, you adopt a different style...

 

of course, such things will happen, and i do not for a moment think that all i have written always was the best i could do, or hold to some of the more feverish of my remarks today.

 

i think these are best accepted as accidents on the road, and they are unfortunate but inevitable. after all, what we are discussing here is dead millions and the legacy they left behind to both of us. and we are not impartial third parties to it, but descendants of the people who lived it.

 

i hope to keep this going and see it give rise to something positive in the future (it can happen). i am offended by the holier-than-thou attitude of some of the members, but i keep in mind that these are personal attitudes rather than national ones. you are an armenian, too, after all, and your attitude is very different. kind of gives me hope.

 

take care,

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boghos:

Originally posted by THOTH:

[qb]You also amuse me. Lack of self-control. If you can´t take some irony, there is nothing I can do about it. I propose we nominate you as the protector of Turks and as the specialist on the personal lives of forum members.

Fine - at least in the first case (protector of Turks - LOL) - at least with this title you can't complain when I urge some civility and encourage respectful posts - even when there are disagrements.

 

But - my how soon we forget. You don't seem to recall the days - not so far distant - on the Middle East Forum and the Turkish Crimes against Humanities Fournm and on some others where besides perhaps Fadhi - I was the chief opponent of Genocide denying Turks and Turkish supporters such as Nick - remember him, and Ismet (the hysterian), and various others..etc. Do you recall? I was engaged - daily - in intensly debating these folks who took every oppurtunity to put Armenians down and to justify (or deny) the Genocide. Don't forget that basically I was the only one (besides Fahdi of course)who could regularly put Nick and Ismet & Co in their places and defeat their arguments (Armenians from all over were begging me to fight against these guys - really). These encounters were both (IMO) - very serious - as well as sometimes somewhat comical (Ismet certainly was - I admit - though he seemed to do a good job intimifdating a lot of Armenians into silence). I was always ready and able to defend the truth and Armenian positions and oppose Turkish disinformation. So I very much have put in my time with this sort of thing and don't shy away from conflict - if needed. Yes - and I recall trying to draft you to participate more and support us - but you weren't really interested. So please don't brand me as some sort of supporter of genocide denial and poor Turkish human rights practices or whatever. I have fought some pitched battles over these issues and you have no right to brand me as some apologist or softy or such. Additionally - I also must say that except perhaps in the case of the clown Ismet - I always maintained a civil exchange - (and even with him -= but I felt I had to one up his various put downs) and you must admit that in terms of taking positions: My position and those of Nick & Observer and (the architect guy - always posting pictures of Istanbul buildings & such - anyway forgot his name) and all the rest - were IMO much farther apart and inherently more confrontational then anything between Ali and the rest of us here...and I certainly didn't have to resort to putting people down in petty ways etc (except for Ismet who fully deserved it of course).

[Boghos]

[ November 08, 2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[-e-]

after what Domino has said, there isn't a need to continue this conversation. it isn't a secret that the republic of turkey and azerbaijan are 100% anti-Armenian. centuris will pass until the turks will gain our trust and respect. otherwise, to play on different grouds will only harm the long term turkish interests.

[bellthecat]

Ali, your knowledge is nothing to boast about on this subject. I am curious as to where you get your information.

 

There is barely a single Armenian church that is protected from destruction and, far from diminshing, the rate of destruction is increasing. With maybe a dozen exceptions, I expect that there will be almost nothing left within a decade.

 

Steve

[nairi]

I only edited my post because I was kindly asked to do so.

 

Domino jan, Thoth has his own opinion about Ali and I think it should be respected, no matter how much you disagree with it.

 

Ali, you're stuck in genocide threads again. I hope you'll be joining our other threads once you've recovered from your operation (I genuinely do hope you're okay).

 

Nairi

 

[ November 08, 2002, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: nairi ]

[THOTH]

OK Boghos fine - truce? We disagree (somewhat) concerning Ali. All I have asked is to be a little nicer - certainly you don't have to be - this is up to you - and you can do as you wish - but I like Ali (and don't fully see your objections to him - is this because I understand the Turkish mind-set better then you - or vice versa or...who knows? - maybe saome of all...) - and yes - the idea of "good" (or at least rational/open minded) Turks (and/or non-Armenians in general with an interest in Armenians issues) being involved and contributing in this forum is something that I value. So I am for encouraging not discouraging behaviors. And like MJ says - we are a window to the rest of the world - and I would prefer (my bias is) that Armenans are seen as accepting at least somewhat of others and not just inward looking - unable to be flexible and such...but maybe I'm wrong (about Armenians...) - well I know Armenians away from this forum too...(and I'm also not disputing here that some of what Ali says may be offensive or incorrect etc)...

 

BTW - my goal in publically opposing the Nick's etc of the world is not to convince them to believe that the Genocide actually happened. I know that no one can do that. It is to do my best to ensure that the fence sitters - be they Turks or whoever - who aren't sure of the facts - are not convinced the other way by the psuedo truths and outright lies of the other side. I happen to think this is a worthwhile effort (though am currently a bit btrnt out so I'm not so active on the boards of late...and of course there is a dearth of quality opposition!). Anyway I feel that I have at least a few success stories (that I am aware of - one of which is now very active doing "real" worthwhile work supporting Armenian Genocide and related causes). And even if by my opposition I cause the deniers to pause a bit and not be so zealous in spreading their lies - knowing I will show them for what they are - this too is a positive impact IMO. Domino deserves even more credit then I in this regard. But it is your right to believe otherwise I don't wish to dictate your thinking. However I do think it is something valuable and I think that any progress we make will be from the masses not necesarily the elites (and most of these masses don't reread...unless its phospher...).

[Guest Fadi]

Steve, you just give an example of facts that Ali "innocently" and cold bloodly deny, and then calmly like a victim answer diplomatically, and question why he is rejected like this. I can not buy his said good intentions anymore, I have enough of this bullcrap trashes from people with so-called good intentions.

 

[ November 08, 2002, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Guest Fadi]

Thoth, you are too nice here.

 

Ali, just a question to you.

 

I just wonder, you say that you are open to say what you think, and allegedly give most of the blames on your side. Why giving your true name in this board and your profession, if you believe that your views are so different then the Turkish government, are you not afraid of comming on a board like this, the most frequented Armenian forum, and this with your true name ? I mean, do you believe that your country is a so democratic institution that you are compleatly free to say what you want ? Or perhaps, you are not afraid of the consequences because your views are just those of the Turkish government, with a more "friendly" way ?

[THOTH]

Domino - yes I am too nice...and you are so cruel by such a comment...how dare you! LOL!

 

The world could do with a whole lot more nice IMO...perhaps we need another Stalin to make it so! (OK - thats humour...not funny/understandable to most I guess...aw who cares...I am going back to enjoy my wine...)