MJ Posted March 17, 2002 Report Share Posted March 17, 2002 “It is a sobering thought that some spot on map below, unfamiliar as it is to most modern wine-lovers, may be the very place where man first tasted the wine. Whether it was in Turkey or Armenia that the first wine was made, there is no doubt that the Middle East is wine’s birthplace. Eastern Mediterranean was the France and Italy of the ancient world - until the eighth century and the advent of Islam. The World Atlas of WineBy Hugh Johnson and Fancis RobinsonFifth Edition, 2001Page 264” The map, which is referenced in the text, points at the geography of contemporary Turkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 thoth, turkey has really become a large-volume wine producer of the world, and you might be surprised to learn that a substantial part of french bordeaux (of cabernet sauvignon variety) actually is obtained from turkey (no-name of course). the french use it to augment their volumes. i understand most of it goes to the vin de table, vin de pays and vin délimité de qualité superieure classes, but some of it indeed finds its way to appellation bordeaux controlée class as well. so some french bordeaux that you enjoy about 10-30 USD/bottle may indeed contain something from your "old country", so to speak! turkish wine was simply undrinkable up until the 1980s, then things improved a bit, and a lot in the last few years, to the point that turkey now has wines good enough to challenge the coopération (not chateau) AOC wines of bordeaux in quality, if not always in price/quality (we have a something like 400% excise tax on imported alcohol in this country). next time you come around, drop in, and i can offer you some really memorable turkish wine! cheers, [ March 18, 2002, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: aurguplu ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:thoth, turkey has really become a large-volume wine producer of the world, and you might be surprised to learn that a substantial part of french bordeaux (of cabernet sauvignon variety) actually is obtained from turkey (no-name of course). the french use it to augment their volumes. i understand most of it goes to the vin de table, vin de pays and vin délimité de qualité superieure classes, but some of it indeed finds its way to appellation bordeaux controlée class as well. so some french bordeaux that you enjoy about 10-30 USD/bottle may indeed contain something from your "old country", so to speak!I understand/am aware of this (in general/not specifically that the French are being so supplied...though I do not doubt it one bit...most California wine - so prized in the US is not grown in the name valleys/regions but out in the - way too hot - Central Valley - and the quality is poor - IMO) As for those French wines substitited with Turkish grape -I likely have not tried any - not likely in the wine I drink...LOL - not that I am a snob about my wine or only drink very high priced bottles - but if I buy French I ussually buy Chateau produced/AOC+ or that from reputable negotiants that obtain wine from known vinyards...(and where I assume the lables are accurate...) though again I am familiar with the scandal in Burgundy last year and immediatly had to check all of my stock as I thought I had some of the intentionally mislabled stuff...luckily I didn't...though I am not a big Burgundy drinker as I find [parts of] California and Oregon to supply quite a drinkable & more affordable product)...I am a big Bordeaux drinker however as well as Rhone (mostly Southern [CNdP!!! - just has a nice Guigal this weekend...]...though the occasional Hermitage/Cote Rotie/Crozes or even St Joseph).... quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:turkish wine was simply undrinkable up until the 1980s, then things improved a bit, and a lot in the last few years, to the point that turkey now has wines good enough to challenge the coopération (not chateau) AOC wines of bordeaux in quality, if not always in price/quality (we have a something like 400% excise tax on imported alcohol in this country). next time you come around, drop in, and i can offer you some really memorable turkish wine! cheers, I will certainly do that. You have my permission to lay a few down for my eventual visit (LOL)...if there are any yet being produced that are fit to age. By any chance do they grow any Nebbilio in Turkey? Its one of my favorite grapes...and it seems that there might be the climate for it...in fact I would think that nearly any grape variety could be grown somewhere in Turkey - from the hot types to those requirring cooler temps...good to hear that qualityy is improving - always good to hear...I mean who likes bad wine anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 Dear friends, I will come back to this topic with more time, but if you are interested in trying a very good off the beaten track wine try Chateau Musar Cabernet Sauvignon from Lebanon. I will comment later on New World wines and a few other things. Santé ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:thoth, turkish wine was simply undrinkable up until the 1980s.Sounds a bit like the situation of Turkish tea - allways quantity over quality - and produced only for the home market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 No doubt (good to see you by the way...and concerning a subject near & dear to me). Did you know that Turkey is currently the 4th largest producer of wine in the world! (really) (Behind Italy, France, Spain [not sure], and either the US or Germany [again not sure} - I'll have to look it up again)...anyway, unfortunatly - none are really worth much (in terms of fine drinking & such...though I seem to remember the wine there as drinkable, though not particularly memorable...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 Boghos, thanks for the tip. I have heard good things about Lebanese wine in particular and know a source but did not know what to buy - I'll try to look this one up. I think there are great (& affordable very good) wines being made all over the world. Still, to me France & Italy are special for the sheer volume (& variety) of great wine. The US (primarily California) produces some super wine as well. Other regions such as Spain & Australia have a few great producers/wines and much very drinkable (affordable &) good (but not outstanding) wine. South America is still comming inot its own IMO...with some nice wines that I know of (though I have yet to come accross anything truly exceptional IMO...same for South Africa - though my tastes of these have been very limited. Well thats my take on wines of the world (in brief)...(oops forgot Germany - certain Reislings are very fine & Austria - so I hear - though no experience).....Look foreword to your (Boghos et al) take on this subject....and who can recommens any good Armenian wine? Is anyavailable at all in the US. PS - Forgot Portugul & Hungary for their more specialized sweet wines - (Vintage & ageed Tawney) Port & Tokaji !!!!!!!!!!!!! yum yum yum...and of course I am a great Sauterene fan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 Tooth dont forget Oregon, which produces some of the best Pinot Noirs and Merlots in the states and BC as well has some great wines especially full body reds and most definitely ice wines. I personally am not a big French wine fan. They are too old style for my pallet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 whatever you say, the best one is the "majar" my grandemother used to make back in Armenia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 Hello Winston, Lebanon has also the Ksara wines. But in my view Musar is without match. For France I am essentially a Bordeaux drinker, but that doesn´t prevent me from trying all the different regions. It also very much depends on my mood and the food. Bandol, for example is quite interesting. I am a bih drinker of champagne. I can have a Sauternes once in a while, but I prefer Port as dessert wine (and that´s where the strength in my cellar is, but one should really focus on Vintage Ports, in my opionion, 45´ and 55´ are a bit ridiculously priced, but you still can get a nice Quinta do Noval 1963 for a "reasonable" amount or the better aged Tawnies. Austria and Switzerland are two interesting countries. Very sweet Austrians (trockenbeerenauslese) wines are good, but a German Eiswein is prefered in my opinion. Switzerland has some good wines, but they tend to be more expensive than a similar quality wine from anywhere else (no surprise, is it ?). I am a big fan of South Africa, especially the wines from Thelema and Kanonkop. Simply excellent. A nice and affordable Chardonnay from New Zealandcomes from Brajkovic. Of course Australia has several good wines and a few outstanding ones. Argentina has seen great improvement in the last few years. I would recommend Catena Malbec, or if you prefer Cabernet Sauvignon, they also have a good one. The malbec is more interesting in my view, though. Chile also has good wine, but I prefer Argentina, but I am in the minority camp on this one. The rest of S. America has no noteworthy wines. All the Armenian wines I tasted were horrendous ( I prefer Kotayk, as in the beer ) ) Same applies to Georgia. Turkey is horrible. Morocco and Algeria have drinkable but mediocre wines. Portugal has some decent red ones such as Barca Velha, Pera Manca, Tapada dos Coelheiros and the different Vinho Verde literally green wine, meaning not yet mature. But I prefer Spain with its more robust reds. Italy has several good wines but one has to be very careful. Lots of funny things still happening... Even Britain has some good reds... Sorry for the hastily written response, but I am quite busy. Haven´t even been able to phone Martin ) PS: I remember in Budapest in the 80s one could buy a bottle of the very rare Tokaji Eszencia fromthe 40s for something like US$ 50... [ March 19, 2002, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: Boghos ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Hello Winston, Lebanon has also the Ksara wines. But in my view Musar is without match....I will look for it. Is it a wine to be drunk young or cellared. Are there variations in vintage? quote:Originally posted by Boghos: For France I am essentially a Bordeaux drinker, but that doesn´t prevent me from trying all the different regions. It also very much depends on my mood and the food. Bandol, for example is quite interesting. I am a bih drinker of champagne....I agree - Bordeaux is where it is at. (Have you ordered your 2000 futures yet? I am debating ordering more - still great ones to be had...just the prices are steep...but imagine upon release?) I particualrly enjoy Pomerols & St Emillions (Merlot based) - though the more powerful/tanic Puilacs & St Juliens are often excellent...and of course all the rest... (I am building a bit of a vertical on Moutouns...as much as I can afford...not much yet really...I do have a nice range of Troplong's - are you familiar? nearly always scrumptious IMO). I still find that Southern Rhone is excellent for great value & highly drinkable (& powerful) red wines. - My type. Northern Rhone great as well - though generally pricier...I enjoy the "budget" Crozes & St Josephs too though - for "everyday" drinking. And I just had a nice - very well aged Bandol the other day - very exceptionally smooth...it is Nebbilio - the grape - is it not (I don't recall for sure)? quote:Originally posted by Boghos:I can have a Sauternes once in a while, but I prefer Port as dessert wine (and that´s where the strength in my cellar is, but one should really focus on Vintage Ports, in my opionion, 45´ and 55´ are a bit ridiculously priced, but you still can get a nice Quinta do Noval 1963 for a "reasonable" amount or the better aged Tawnies....I love both/all. Sauternes do have a special place in my heart though...for some reason I seem to have vivid memories of some very nce times while drinking them...(and to me they are so rich & lovely...never had Yquem though..Ruiessac & others...As for Vintage Ports - yes - But I can hardly see spending even what it takes for a "63 (though I have been [recently] tempted. I have several '77s that are about ready (I think) and quite a few more recent vintages (lots of '97s...including a Noval, Grahmes, Nieport & others). I am partial to Taylor (& to a lesser extent Grahmes) in general (witrh vintage as well as tawneys). Have you every had any Greek desert wines that you think are special? quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Austria and Switzerland are two interesting countries. Very sweet Austrians (trockenbeerenauslese) wines are good, but a German Eiswein is prefered in my opinion. Switzerland has some good wines, but they tend to be more expensive than a similar quality wine from anywhere else (no surprise, is it ?)....Gotcha - not surprised (concerning the swiss). Have never had a trock or even an Eiswein yet...I must! quote:Originally posted by Boghos:I am a big fan of South Africa, especially the wines from Thelema and Kanonkop. Simply excellent....Really? Never heard of these - what grapes (red I assume)? Again any vintage advice and are these imidiate drinkers or better off cellared? quote:Originally posted by Boghos:A nice and affordable Chardonnay from New Zealand comes from Brajkovic. Of course Australia has several good wines and a few outstanding ones. ...I keep hearing of the outstanding NZ Chardonnays...but since its not my fave (nor my wifes) we don't drink much anyway..and I tend to go for price...(though always with quality in mind...just not not paying the big bucks for what I belieive is ussually an overated and only moderatly interseting wine...I ussually enjoy my Rieslings more...) quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Argentina has seen great improvement in the last few years. I would recommend Catena Malbec, or if you prefer Cabernet Sauvignon, they also have a good one. The malbec is more interesting in my view, though. Chile also has good wine, but I prefer Argentina, but I am in the minority camp on this one. The rest of S. America has no noteworthy wines....I understand that Argentina is on the rise. I purchased a Catena Malbec but have yet to try it. I like Malbecs - but can certainly imagine them to be better then the ones I have had - the concept is good - IMO - my kind of wine. I enjoy Chilean wines...though the prices are rising so they become less of a bargain...good easy drinking cabs & merlots though... quote:Originally posted by Boghos:All the Armenian wines I tasted were horrendous ( I prefer Kotayk, as in the beer ) ) Same applies to Georgia. Turkey is horrible. Morocco and Algeria have drinkable but mediocre wines....I keep hearing of these fine Georgian wines and some noise about one or two good Armenian wines (I'll have to check my Oz Clark atlas again or wherever it is I saw such...) quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Portugal has some decent red ones such as Barca Velha, Pera Manca, Tapada dos Coelheiros and the different Vinho Verde literally green wine, meaning not yet mature. But I prefer Spain with its more robust reds....Some of the dry Portugese are nice that I have had..my experience is more with Spain however. I quite enjoy Spanish reds...though I have yet to have a super super "fine" one...I just find it hard to pay the $ for Pesqurra (sp) when I can drink an Alta Riojo 904 or such that is very enjoyable...and much cheaper...(and save the "real" $ for Bordeaux or Italian (see below) quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Italy has several good wines but one has to be very careful. Lots of funny things still happening......Funny? Such as? I don't understand - as Italy makes among my favorite wines. I go ape over Barolos & Brunnellos as well as some of the Super Tuscan wines out there (except for price of course...but some affordable very very nice ones can be found)...but these are among my all time favorite wines...I just can't wait until all my "97 vintage of all of the above is ready to drink (the Brunellos that I have pre-ordered are due to arrive soon.....I keep hoping...). And did I mention Amarone? (I am a big Allegrini fan in general - have you had any of their single vinyard [very affordable] reds or their Amarone?) Even Britain has some good reds......[/QB] OK - you have lost all credibility.....LOL. No really - didn't know they grew any wine in Britain...really.. quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Sorry for the hastily written response, but I am quite busy. Haven´t even been able to phone Martin )...Look foreward to hearing more... quote:Originally posted by Boghos:PS: I remember in Budapest in the 80s one could buy a bottle of the very rare Tokaji Eszencia fromthe 40s for something like US$ 50...Surely a destination once commercial time travel becomes available...LOL. I've never had it (of course)...but even the very rich 6+? Putunyos can often be quite heady...(still I prefer my Sauternes...LOL)...though Tokajis are very very nice I agree (and unique in their way). Now take the bullet out of the chamber - its alright that you missed your oppurtunity for fortune and very fine drink...there are other reasons to live of course...and other great quaffs to be had...(still...) [ March 19, 2002, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH: quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Hello Winston, Lebanon has also the Ksara wines. But in my view Musar is without match....I will look for it. Is it a wine to be drunk young or cellared. Are there variations in vintage? ****Musar is only declared in the best vintages, hence you´ll find a 4 to 5 year gap in vintages. It can be cellared for a long time, but a 1991 for example should be ready to drink.**** quote:Originally posted by Boghos: For France I am essentially a Bordeaux drinker, but that doesn´t prevent me from trying all the different regions. It also very much depends on my mood and the food. Bandol, for example is quite interesting. I am a bih drinker of champagne....I agree - Bordeaux is where it is at. (Have you ordered your 2000 futures yet? I am debating ordering more - still great ones to be had...just the prices are steep...but imagine upon release?) I particualrly enjoy Pomerols & St Emillions (Merlot based) - though the more powerful/tanic Puilacs & St Juliens are often excellent...and of course all the rest... (I am building a bit of a vertical on Moutouns...as much as I can afford...not much yet really...I do have a nice range of Troplong's - are you familiar? nearly always scrumptious IMO). I still find that Southern Rhone is excellent for great value & highly drinkable (& powerful) red wines. - My type. Northern Rhone great as well - though generally pricier...I enjoy the "budget" Crozes & St Josephs too though - for "everyday" drinking. And I just had a nice - very well aged Bandol the other day - very exceptionally smooth...it is Nebbilio - the grape - is it not (I don't recall for sure)? **** I am not buying the 2000 futures, actually I hardly ever do (this is a result of the bull market for everything, and I have tried to stay away...). It is amazing how all the Grand Crus have risen in price, but I suspect that prices will stabilize if nit fall (except for Port ) )I am not familiar with Troplong (well, there is a lot I am not familiar with...I have been lazy in the past few years when it comes to France...) St. Estephe´s also make good "everyday" wines. By the way I have nothing against Burgundy, quite the contrary, it is just that I used to eat heavy meals that usually went better with Bordeaux. Bandol is usually made of a blend of Mourvedre and Grenache, sometimes with some Syrah, that is as far as my knowledge goes.**** quote:Originally posted by Boghos:I can have a Sauternes once in a while, but I prefer Port as dessert wine (and that´s where the strength in my cellar is, but one should really focus on Vintage Ports, in my opinion, 45´ and 55´ are a bit ridiculously priced, but you still can get a nice Quinta do Noval 1963 for a "reasonable" amount or the better aged Tawnies....I love both/all. Sauternes do have a special place in my heart though...for some reason I seem to have vivid memories of some very nce times while drinking them...(and to me they are so rich & lovely...never had Yquem though..Ruiessac & others...As for Vintage Ports - yes - But I can hardly see spending even what it takes for a "63 (though I have been [recently] tempted. I have several '77s that are about ready (I think) and quite a few more recent vintages (lots of '97s...including a Noval, Grahmes, Nieport & others). I am partial to Taylor (& to a lesser extent Grahmes) in general (witrh vintage as well as tawneys). Have you every had any Greek desert wines that you think are special? ****I have never had Greek dessert wines, I have just had your run of the mill Retsinas and Boutari, as far as I can remember, the only thing they go well with is feta or khorovadz ) . I have tried a few Yquems, and it is indeed special,...also Rieussec, which I remember fondly, have you tried "Y" ? the second label from Yquem. In Port I love the 77´ vintage, especially Taylor´s, they age a bit faster here since I don´t cellar them. . I have stopped buying with the 1994, it was getting ridiculous, Port for the next several generations...**** quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Austria and Switzerland are two interesting countries. Very sweet Austrians (trockenbeerenauslese) wines are good, but a German Eiswein is prefered in my opinion. Switzerland has some good wines, but they tend to be more expensive than a similar quality wine from anywhere else (no surprise, is it ?)....Gotcha - not surprised (concerning the swiss). Have never had a trock or even an Eiswein yet...I must! ****You really must, Eiswein is something very special and not that absurdly expensive.**** quote:Originally posted by Boghos:I am a big fan of South Africa, especially the wines from Thelema and Kanonkop. Simply excellent....Really? Never heard of these - what grapes (red I assume)? Again any vintage advice and are these imidiate drinkers or better off cellared? These can be drunk young, 5 years in my book. I am not a white wine drinker, with very few exceptions, so I have only tried the reds, they have usually Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot and its blends. I can´t recall the vintages, but I will have a look at home. quote:Originally posted by Boghos:A nice and affordable Chardonnay from New Zealand comes from Brajkovic. Of course Australia has several good wines and a few outstanding ones. ...I keep hearing of the outstanding NZ Chardonnays...but since its not my fave (nor my wifes) we don't drink much anyway..and I tend to go for price...(though always with quality in mind...just not not paying the big bucks for what I belieive is ussually an overated and only moderatly interseting wine...I ussually enjoy my Rieslings more...) ****Overrated wine is an understatement. You are quite right. Buy everything S. African that you see, then you´ll decide on what you like, there is no better value in my mind.**** quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Argentina has seen great improvement in the last few years. I would recommend Catena Malbec, or if you prefer Cabernet Sauvignon, they also have a good one. The malbec is more interesting in my view, though. Chile also has good wine, but I prefer Argentina, but I am in the minority camp on this one. The rest of S. America has no noteworthy wines....I understand that Argentina is on the rise. I purchased a Catena Malbec but have yet to try it. I like Malbecs - but can certainly imagine them to be better then the ones I have had - the concept is good - IMO - my kind of wine. I enjoy Chilean wines...though the prices are rising so they become less of a bargain...good easy drinking cabs & merlots though... ****You are right about Chilean wines, they have risen in price and also in quality, I just can´t tell you they don´t get me going. Incidentally I had an excellent one at my dad´s last week, but I don´t even rememer the name, maybe it was Caballo Loco...**** quote:Originally posted by Boghos:All the Armenian wines I tasted were horrendous ( I prefer Kotayk, as in the beer ) ) Same applies to Georgia. Turkey is horrible. Morocco and Algeria have drinkable but mediocre wines....I keep hearing of these fine Georgian wines and some noise about one or two good Armenian wines (I'll have to check my Oz Clark atlas again or wherever it is I saw such...) ****Let me know when you find them ) . quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Portugal has some decent red ones such as Barca Velha, Pera Manca, Tapada dos Coelheiros and the different Vinho Verde literally green wine, meaning not yet mature. But I prefer Spain with its more robust reds....Some of the dry Portugese are nice that I have had..my experience is more with Spain however. I quite enjoy Spanish reds...though I have yet to have a super super "fine" one...I just find it hard to pay the $ for Pesqurra (sp) when I can drink an Alta Riojo 904 or such that is very enjoyable...and much cheaper...(and save the "real" $ for Bordeaux or Italian (see below) ****It had been quite a while I had heard of 904, a fine wine, Rioja has excellent wine for meat. Naturally you should also try Vega Sicilia, especially if you are building a Mouton vetical ) .**** quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Italy has several good wines but one has to be very careful. Lots of funny things still happening......Funny? Such as? I don't understand - as Italy makes among my favorite wines. I go ape over Barolos & Brunnellos as well as some of the Super Tuscan wines out there (except for price of course...but some affordable very very nice ones can be found)...but these are among my all time favorite wines...I just can't wait until all my "97 vintage of all of the above is ready to drink (the Brunellos that I have pre-ordered are due to arrive soon.....I keep hoping...). And did I mention Amarone? (I am a big Allegrini fan in general - have you had any of their single vinyard [very affordable] reds or their Amarone?) ****Once again dad´s come to rescue me providing me with excellent Gaja wines. I used to be a buyer for my father in the mid-80s, but gave up for a variety of reasons. Now, he does Italy, I do the rest. Even Britain has some good reds......OK - you have lost all credibility.....LOL. No really - didn't know they grew any wine in Britain...really.. ****I know, you are not alone in that. I confess it sounds a bit odd, even London restaurants don´t like to carry them...but they do exist...**** quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Sorry for the hastily written response, but I am quite busy. Haven´t even been able to phone Martin )...Look foreward to hearing more...****Likewise.**** quote:Originally posted by Boghos:PS: I remember in Budapest in the 80s one could buy a bottle of the very rare Tokaji Eszencia fromthe 40s for something like US$ 50...Surely a destination once commercial time travel becomes available...LOL. I've never had it (of course)...but even the very rich 6+? Putunyos can often be quite heady...(still I prefer my Sauternes...LOL)...though Tokajis are very very nice I agree (and unique in their way). Now take the bullet out of the chamber - its alright that you missed your oppurtunity for fortune and very fine drink...there are other reasons to live of course...and other great quaffs to be had...(still...)[/QB] ****Indeed.**** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Boghos: ****Musar is only declared in the best vintages, hence you´ll find a 4 to 5 year gap in vintages. It can be cellared for a long time, but a 1991 for example should be ready to drink.****I'll have to look for it.. quote:Originally posted by Boghos: **** I am not buying the 2000 futures, actually I hardly ever do (this is a result of the bull market for everything, and I have tried to stay away...). It is amazing how all the Grand Crus have risen in price, but I suspect that prices will stabilize if nit fall (except for Port ) )I am not familiar with Troplong (well, there is a lot I am not familiar with...I have been lazy in the past few years when it comes to France...) St. Estephe´s also make good "everyday" wines. By the way I have nothing against Burgundy, quite the contrary, it is just that I used to eat heavy meals that usually went better with Bordeaux. Bandol is usually made of a blend of Mourvedre and Grenache, sometimes with some Syrah, that is as far as my knowledge goes.****Tropolong Mondot is a wonderful rich Gran Cru from St Emillion - recommended (but the list is long is it not?). St Estephe - the Segur family & Cos Destournal - both can be nice...& not too pricy. I'm worried that the good 2000 Bordeaux may be unogbtainable or even more pricy by the time that they are released. I don't expect the classically rated ones (only ones I am buying) to go down... quote:Originally posted by Boghos:...have you tried "Y" ? the second label from Yquem. In Port I love the 77´ vintage, especially Taylor´s, they age a bit faster here since I don´t cellar them. . I have stopped buying with the 1994, it was getting ridiculous, Port for the next several generations...****Never tried "Y" ...your saying I should I guess. I'm not sure I ever want to try Y'Quem (then I might have to buy some for myself...). I have a '77 Taylor that I have been considering drinking sometime soon...need to find an appreciative audience (can't drink it all myself)...I know what your saying concerning Port - still there are a few out there that I am still looking for...(and the '97s should be tres good BTW.) quote:Originally posted by Boghos:****You really must, Eiswein is something very special and not that absurdly expensive.****So I have been told. I actually own a bottle - guess I should drink it someday... quote:Originally posted by Boghos:I am a big fan of South Africa, especially the wines from Thelema and Kanonkop. ....Buy everything S. African that you see, then you´ll decide on what you like, there is no better value in my mind.****I guess I should check them out... quote:Originally posted by Boghos:****It had been quite a while I had heard of 904, a fine wine, Rioja has excellent wine for meat. Naturally you should also try Vega Sicilia, especially if you are building a Mouton vetical ) .****They must own this property no? Would you beleive I have never had an Opus 1? I actually know someone who knows someone that works there and he keeps promissing to turn me on to some...and I keep waitning...oh well - one day... quote:Originally posted by Boghos:****Once again dad´s come to rescue me providing me with excellent Gaja wines. I used to be a buyer for my father in the mid-80s, but gave up for a variety of reasons. Now, he does Italy, I do the rest.Gaja - super - never had one - though I own a Conteissa '97 that will be scrumptious one day I'm sure...Gaja is very & here - very difficult to find for less then $200 a bottle - most is $300+ now...not my normal price range...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted March 21, 2002 Report Share Posted March 21, 2002 I don’t know weather the Araratian valley is the birth place of the grapes but definitely the grapes that I tasted in Armenia have no match with anything else. As they say “ Hamu peranus e!” . In ancient times in the mountainous villages of Armenia wine production technology was as simple as that. The grape extract is poured into “ghatza” and left outside of the house, well covered. During the winter, wine producer would remove from time to time the ice blocks from the tun. During the summer he would make sure that it is protected from the sum rays. After 3-5 winters you would have 15-18degrees perfection.For the wine lovers in our distinguished forum I would recommend Tokaji (although for some reason it is not what it was suppose to be anymore). Merlo from Stambolovo 1984 (it is around $20 but its worthy), Cabernet Sauvignon from Turgovishte1986, Asenovgradski Mavrud. Tip of the day: Do not buy Bulgarian brands with the mark “Balkan Crest”. They are too commercialized and its pure chemistry . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyeflyer Posted March 22, 2002 Report Share Posted March 22, 2002 I ma not much of a wine drinker.I dont like sulfites in the wines.So I make my own in about 3 to 5 gallons a year.I have 2 zinfendel vines.My question is whate comercial wine is the best for cooking in you experts opinions. As i sad I only drink what I make and am looking for a decent white for cooking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted March 24, 2002 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:No doubt (good to see you by the way...and concerning a subject near & dear to me)...Thanks. As you might guess, I was on an expedition to spiritually connect with my roots and to get to understand the true origins of wine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 26, 2002 Report Share Posted March 26, 2002 quote:Originally posted by MJ: quote:Originally posted by THOTH:No doubt (good to see you by the way...and concerning a subject near & dear to me)...Thanks. As you might guess, I was on an expedition to spiritually connect with my roots and to get to understand the true origins of wine. LOL - can't wait to hear more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted April 12, 2002 Report Share Posted April 12, 2002 More on this subject later (some very interesting details and supplemental material...incl possibility of wine from China circe 9,500 BC! and a Wine-Mead-Beer concoction from Anatolia circa 5,500 BC! (that has been recreated [& is for sale?] in Deleware USA!) Geneticists Question Origin of Grapevine Domestication By Lynn Alley For many years, wine historians believed that winemaking and domestication of grapevines first began somewhere in the foothills of the Caucasus Mountains, which run between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea, then slowly spread via trade channels down into Mesopotamia, Egypt and, ultimately, Greece and Rome. Available archaeological evidence seemed to support this belief. But an international consortium of grapevine geneticists has evidence to the contrary, which they first presented at the International Genome Conference in San Diego in January. They believe that grapevines were domesticated at multiple sites throughout Europe and western Asia -- the natural range of wild Vitis vinifera, the vine species that produces the grape varieties of most of the world's fine wines -- at different points over a long period of time. "Our data is just not consistent with the popular view of grapevine evolution," said lead author and senior researcher José Martínez-Zapater. "We now believe there may have been multiple domestication sites throughout western Europe and Asia," said Martínez-Zapater, who works for the Centro Nacional de Biotecnología in Madrid, Spain. Looking for clues about the evolution and spread of Vitis vinifera, Rosa Arroyo, a postdoctoral fellow in Martínez-Zapater's lab, analyzed hundreds of samples of chloroplast DNA from vines that came from throughout western Asia and Europe. The DNA found in a vine's chloroplasts is relatively stable through the female line over many centuries, unlike nuclear DNA, which undergoes a "shuffling" every time sexual reproduction occurs. From any given region, wild vines and domesticated ones turned out to have remarkably similar chloroplast DNA -- indicating strong family ties between the two. This suggests that the domesticated vines may have developed from the local wild varieties, rather than having been brought there from another area. "We first noticed similarities between wild and cultivated vines in Spain, then realized that the Greeks were making wines from large-berried grapes that were significantly different from the wine grapes used in Spain," said Martínez-Zapater. "We then began to reach out to scientists throughout western and eastern Europe to compare notes." Dr. Harold Olmo, grapevine geneticist and breeder emeritus at the University of California, Davis, has long believed in multiple sites of domestication, but had been, until recently, one of a few scientific voices crying in the wilderness. "It only stands to reason that human beings would have discovered that nearby wild berries were full of sugar and good to eat, and that they would ferment easily," said the 92-year-old researcher. "Why would they have waited for someone up the road to bring in grapes and wine when they had them in their own backyards?" But molecular archaeologist Patrick McGovern, of the University of Pennsylvania's Museum Applied Science Center for Archaeology, believes that while the geneticists' work may shed light on the story of domestication, existing archaeological data do not support their theory. McGovern specializes in analyzing food and wine residues from the ancient past, and his work has helped establish the date of winemaking to as far as back 5400 B.C. He believes that the conclusions drawn by the geneticists may be in error, although their data may be accurate. He is currently consulting with Martínez-Zapater on the research. Meanwhile, Martínez-Zapater and his team are working to expand their database of vine samples to include other parts of the world, including North Africa and other parts of Asia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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