bellthecat Posted October 28, 2001 Report Share Posted October 28, 2001 Experience tells me that that is the case when it concerns this subject! The idea that a group of fat urban living business-types could map even a fraction of "Armenian culture and historical sites in Turkey" is ludicrous. And we all should shudder at the prospects of the dreadful damage that their "restoration" of Ach'tamar will bring about. --------------------------------------------TABDC Maps Armenian Culture-Historic Sites In Turkey YEREVAN(Armenpress) Kaan Soyak, the co-chairman of the Turkish-Armenian Business Development Committee (TABDC) said the TABDC has been mapping all Armenianculture and historical sites in Turkey for about one year, in order to starttheir repair and restoration. He said their efforts to map such sites inEastern Turkey is nearing completion, praising Vergin Serob, a TABDCcoordinator, for her contribution to the work. He also said theaterconstruction for the restoration of medieval Armenian cathedral on AkhtamarIsland have been under way for two months. The reconstruction efforts arefinanced by American-Armenian benefactor Hrair Hovnanian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted October 29, 2001 Report Share Posted October 29, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:Experience tells me that that is the case when it concerns this subject! The idea that a group of fat urban living business-types could map even a fraction of "Armenian culture and historical sites in Turkey" is ludicrous. And we all should shudder at the prospects of the dreadful damage that their "restoration" of Ach'tamar will bring about.--------------------------------------------TABDC Maps Armenian Culture-Historic Sites In Turkey YEREVAN(Armenpress)Kaan Soyak, the co-chairman of the Turkish-Armenian Business Development Committee (TABDC) said the TABDC has been mapping all Armenianculture and historical sites in Turkey for about one year, in order to starttheir repair and restoration. He said their efforts to map such sites inEastern Turkey is nearing completion, praising Vergin Serob, a TABDCcoordinator, for her contribution to the work. He also said theaterconstruction for the restoration of medieval Armenian cathedral on AkhtamarIsland have been under way for two months. The reconstruction efforts arefinanced by American-Armenian benefactor Hrair Hovnanian.so what is the alternative that you are proposing, steve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted October 30, 2001 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2001 either don't touch it at all or hire some non-Turkish / non-Armenian experts (who will probably tell them to leave the building alone). There is not a single building in Turkey - Turkish or Armenian - that I know of that has been improved by a "restoration". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted October 30, 2001 Report Share Posted October 30, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:either don't touch it at all or hire some non-Turkish / non-Armenian experts (who will probably tell them to leave the building alone). There is not a single building in Turkey - Turkish or Armenian - that I know of that has been improved by a "restoration".i agree with you. i have rarely seen a restoration in turkey (or pretty much anywhere else, in fact) that i preferred to the unrestored state of the monument in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted October 31, 2001 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:i agree with you. i have rarely seen a restoration in turkey (or pretty much anywhere else, in fact) that i preferred to the unrestored state of the monument in question.I'll try and post (in a day or so) some horror pictures of what has happened to the Ishakpasa palace near Dogubayazit.Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 1, 2001 Report Share Posted November 1, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:I'll try and post (in a day or so) some horror pictures of what has happened to the Ishakpasa palace near Dogubayazit.SteveIs it going to be, like, "before" and "after"? I'd like to see what it looked like before... Or in between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted November 1, 2001 Report Share Posted November 1, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:I'll try and post (in a day or so) some horror pictures of what has happened to the Ishakpasa palace near Dogubayazit.Steveoh no, don't tell me they xxxxed that one, too. is it beyond repair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 1, 2001 Report Share Posted November 1, 2001 quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:oh no, don't tell me they xxxxed that one, too. is it beyond repair?When did you see it, Ali?I have some photos myself somewheres... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 1, 2001 Report Share Posted November 1, 2001 Sorry, folks - I realized my mistake too late. Look here instead: http://geocities.com/filizt_tr/dogub/ [ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Thorny Rose ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted November 1, 2001 Report Share Posted November 1, 2001 These turks are boring.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 2, 2001 Report Share Posted November 2, 2001 The weather is lovely today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:There is not a single building in Turkey - Turkish or Armenian - that I know of that has been improved by a "restoration".I can't agree with this statement (as a universal statement). I know that I am no expert, but I have been to the theater at Aspendos between Side and Antalya (it is simply wonderful) - as well as to other Greek structures in Turkey that have been restored and I think that the restored buildings serve a great purpose - more so - to the common folk - then just a pile of old stones and such. That being the case I cry with you regarding the poor quality of the work and the destructivenss as witnessed by the (so-called) resorations as can be seen on your web page and that you allude to here. Obviously the restorations should be done right. Your points regarding the motivations for the restorers is also well taken. Just the same - I would love to see an Ani (or parts of it at least) resotred properly - not by these hacks. It is certainly criminal what they are doing and how they are going about it. Thanks so much for documenting such and bringing it to our attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 I wonder, what about the quality of the works elsewhere? I haven't seen much outside Side.I also wonder if the choice of quality work (or who is going to qualify) depends on whether there are going to be a lot of tourists or not... Had it been like that in Aspendos (and was it restored by Turkish teams, by the way?), it would have caused an outrage of great magnitude... But, here, out in the wastelands of Eastern Turkey - daah... Who sees/notices anything (in Turkey or around the world)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted November 8, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose:OOOOOOOh my gooooooosh! No - I didn't see any such piles.But, isn't it a bit odd that the colour of the stone in the first picture is much lighter than the original stone overall, which is somewhat very light brown?They are from different sides of the building - the first is from the side facing the valley (facing west) the other is from the south facade. But the colour difference might just be due to the light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 I think she is refering to the new stone work versus the original (or existing). Seems as though one always sees this in restorations. I have been to a number of Myan sites where the new stone work is clearly distinct from the original. Sometimes this is done on purpose to distinguish new from old. I would prefer that it be done to look as close to the originalas possible - in all ways. I would love to see some of the Myan tem[ples rebuilt and actually (at least in part) repainted in all their former glory - so that we really could see what they looked like (of course this would also involve rebuiilding substansial segments that were originally made from wood or thatch etc - and did not at all survive. Also some guess work involved I imagine...still... quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: They are from different sides of the building - the first is from the side facing the valley (facing west) the other is from the south facade. But the colour difference might just be due to the light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 Nope, I had meant this one: http://virtualani.homestead.com/files/db1.jpg The striking contrast on the walls are not new to me - I've seen the same and have provided pictures above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 OK then - I was mistaken. Its probably as Steve says - a difference in the lighting or in the image on the film. See ya all later - gotta go now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 Gotta go beddy-bye myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted November 8, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:I can't agree with this statement (as a universal statement). I know that I am no expert, but I have been to the theater at Aspendos between Side and Antalya (it is simply wonderful) - as well as to other Greek structures in Turkey that have been restored and I think that the restored buildings serve a great purpose - more so - to the common folk - then just a pile of old stones and such. That being the case I cry with you regarding the poor quality of the work and the destructivenss as witnessed by the (so-called) resorations as can be seen on your web page and that you allude to here. Obviously the restorations should be done right. Your points regarding the motivations for the restorers is also well taken. Just the same - I would love to see an Ani (or parts of it at least) resotred properly - not by these hacks. It is certainly criminal what they are doing and how they are going about it. Thanks so much for documenting such and bringing it to our attention.It wasn't meant to be a universal statement but as far as eastern Turkey goes I think it could be. Thanks for your encouragement, by the way! A lot of the sites in the west of Turkey are paid for by foreign funds, who have greater control. There seems also to be a greater motivation to preserve the buildings (as opposed to just making money out of their reconstruction). But the truth is that western Turkey doesn't really care much about eastern Turkey - if they did then the PKK problem would never have arisen (even the Turkish government admits this, although they say the neglect was merely developmental). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted November 9, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2001 Here are some pictures of the palace, just after the "restoration" - taken last year. I do not have overall views because it started to rain. An ugly roof was put over the surviving part of the palace (which is not even the original upper floor level). To support this roof most of the original upper sections of the walls were demolished and rebuilt using new stone - the photos show the two huge piles of demolished masonry that were part of the original walls until the restoration - notice all the sculptural fragments. Maybe Thornt will know if these piles of stone are still there (I doubt it - they are probably underneath a new road, or buried in a hole somewhere). http://virtualani.homestead.com/files/db1.jpg http://virtualani.homestead.com/files/db2.jpg http://virtualani.homestead.com/files/db3.jpg http://virtualani.homestead.com/files/db4.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 9, 2001 Report Share Posted November 9, 2001 OOOOOOOh my gooooooosh! No - I didn't see any such piles.But, isn't it a bit odd that the colour of the stone in the first picture is much lighter than the original stone overall, which is somewhat very light brown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 9, 2001 Report Share Posted November 9, 2001 Steve, don't forget to post this stuff on MEF! They could benefit! http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/4359 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 9, 2001 Report Share Posted November 9, 2001 In the good old days, when I was growing up in Armenia, the attitude of the Armenian archeologists and academicians was that the historic monuments should not be restored, but rather preserved. This was especially well demonstrated in the case of Zvartnots. And I think what is right for Zvartnots, may be right for other monuments, too. The restoration of the Pagan Temple of Garni was rumored to be influenced by some "powerful circles," who wanted to restore a Pagan Temple in the heart of Armenia. I don't know who these "circles" where (allegedly). I agree that there is absolutely no rational to restore such monuments. What is the point that one wants to make by restoring them? Is it for the sake of some kind of functional use? I doubt it. If there is a need for a new Church in the particular region, one should build a new one not far from the ruins, and the management of the Church may be an extra body to keep its eyes on the ruins and ring the bells when something wrong goes with them. If it is for the sake of museums, the ruins themselves qualify better for a museum, and the restored building in no way does so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 9, 2001 Report Share Posted November 9, 2001 MJ - I understand your point regarding restoration versus preservation - and in fact have taken the side corresponding to your view with some local (US) Civil War structures that the park service wants to actually use for commercial purposes (te building in question is already restored - and is used as a meeting facility - they want to put in a working kitchen so that they can make food and charge for it - I have fought this vigourously - in fact I have fought against the genereral commercial use of the facility)> I think that there is a balance however - and that restoration serves a purpose. First - only archeology/history buffs such as myself will ever venture out to visit ruins (for the most part) - but restored buildings (etc) are another matter - giving a much wider exposre to these structures - and thus to history in general (and I know that there are two sides to this). I think that this is important - because it gets people to care about preservation. And also - without restoration I think sometimes we lose the perspective on what the thing was - how it was used etc etc. So I think restoration (done properly) can be a good thing. It should be evaluated on a case by case basis (IMO) - but certainly not left to hacks to carry out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 9, 2001 Report Share Posted November 9, 2001 Thoth, I am glad to hear it. Only would add that visiting the ruins, be it Zvartnots, Garni (before even the restoration) or Dvin, was a very popular form of recreation for the locals and the tourists in Armenia in the old days. At the time, there was some kind of cult of historic monuments. Don't know what is the situation, currently. And I am definitely very much opposed to the restorations of the Monastery of Kecharis as discussed earlier. It is a different story when the monument is in place, by in large, and some segment of it has to be restored. But is it is about a substantial portion of it, it is a gross desecration, in my view. Again, Zvartnots is a perfect example. The ruins are not touched, though the monument was thoroughly studied, and a blueprint of its design was inferred. There was a small and meager (in terms of luxurious elements) museum on its territory, which was acquainting the visitors with its history, demonstrating the mock model, etc. And it was perfect. I am hopeful that the glory of old days would come back to Armenia in the near future as a result of the reorganization of the social and other structures of its sons and daughters. I am optimistic. But this is a very tough and painful transition period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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