Arpa Posted February 23, 2002 Report Share Posted February 23, 2002 Pandukht wrote;============== > yes VAhan jan I'm referring to the > Hanukah < I do not know if that's> the correct name for it or not.==========It is known as menorah. It simply means a "source of light or fire". The word is common in other Semitic languages, it is believed to be from the original Aramaic "manarah". In some modern Semitic languages "nour" means light and "nar" means fire. The word is based on either or both of those. Another word akin to it is "minaret" which originally meant a lighthouse but now is exclusively used to describe the tower of a mosque.There apparently are two kinds of menorahs, one with seven branches and another with nine, the latter is used to usher in Hanakah while the former is a general symbol for Judaism.===========> a year a go i was in Armenia and this is the pictures that i have taken,> I have asked my friend "what the hell is this Jewish think> doing next to Sevaks Grave " he told me that it's not Jewish that i was> mistaking.> will i just opened the newspaper and her was this article By Gorge> Abelyan in NorHAyastan - Issue #26 and he just like me has> visited the grave side in 2001, he had asked the employees, and they> told him that Sevak had a Jewish "Girlfriend" many years> a go, and shi is the one who has placed the Hanukah at the memorial> side.> apparently this is not the first time that she has pleased Hanukah on> Sevaks Graveside, it has been removed from their many times, but soon> some one brings a new one.============That may not be the only site with Jewish symbols. At the Haghardzin monastery grounds there is a very old khachkar that has a star of David at the bottom. Many theories about it, some say it has nothing to do with Judaism, that it is just a geometric shape, others say it may have been sculped by Jewish artisans etc., or that, just like now some of our devoutly Christian ancestors regarded us just another biblical tribe.============= > Gorge was saying that " haw many Armenia Crosses have you seen in jewsh> semetoryis, many of our Armenian Boys have had Jewish Girlfriends, MANY-> do any of them have crosses on them???? > or let me ask you this, we place a cross on a Jewish grave, lets see haw> many days it will stay on it.============ The reason for that may be the fact that we are "menq mezi hars enq linoum", that is, we consider them as our soul brothers while they don't even want to hear about us. Consider the anger and frustration we recently had. This is nothing new, it goes back many centuries, 17 centuries to be exact, it all started when we totally trashed our native culture and replaced it with an alien one, it started when Khorenatsi and others, in an attempt to legitimize and justify our very existence tried to tie our origin to Noah all but ignoring Haik, Aram and others. When our patriarchs snubbed our saints like Vahakn, Anahit and Astghik and instead replaced them with Peter, Paul and Mary. Even Shrorhali paid tribute to the menorah. See below. > Iy Iy Iy iy=========== In common terms a menorah is a candelabra, a candle holder. There are many Armenian terms for it like momakal, jragakal, jahakal etc. but the most common is "ashtanak". There is no definite conclusion about the origin of the word, many attempts. I am surprised that nobody saw what I see. It is the general rule that Armenian words ending in "ak" are probably from the Persian. What if "ashtanak" is a variation of "atash-nak", "atash" means "fire in Persian and other neighboring languages who borrowed it. Could it be that "ashtanak" was originally "atash-nak" to mean "fire/light holder".Getting back to corruption of our culture and heritage, Shrorhali is supposed to have mentioned in one of his writings( I don't know which) where he, probably in reference to the menorah uses the term "yotnaluys ashtanak". Just as in the Jewish tradition, the seven branched candle holder is used to usher in Advent, known in Armenian as "galoust or "hoge-galoust" where one candle is lit each day for seven days. As mentioned above the "yotnaluys ashtanak" may have come from the Jewish culture since many artifacts from Armenian sites such as Ani and others have revealed momakals with only one stem and typically three feet (yerotani) suggesting that it may symbolize the Trinity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Arpa jan,I am absolutely sure you know that Vahakn, Astgik, Anahit also had their "ancestors" in Greek and Persian Culture although they were created by Armenians. So, it is hard to say that we just threw our traditional Gods and took one from Christianity. 1700 years passed and now Armenians are old Christians - traditions are always changing, what can one do? Persian people also forgot their Achuramazd,their Avesta; Greeks forgot about Dionisius,Zevs,...; Christianty won the world, at least the part of the world despite the fact that modern people are(as one Russian auther said) "Neandertal'zi Duxa". Maybe some day a new religion will come...These candle holders were used in Christian world (especially Eastern), but in that case of Sevak I guess Movses' question is reasonable. But should we worry about that?Vahan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 24, 2002 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Arpa jan,I am absolutely sure you know that Vahakn, Astgik, Anahit also had their "ancestors" in Greek and Persian Culture although they were created by Armenians. So, it is hard to say that we just threw our traditional Gods and took one from Christianity.1700 years passed and now Armenians are old Christians - traditions are always changing, what can one do? Persian people also forgot their Achuramazd,their Avesta; Greeks forgot about Dionisius,Zevs,...; Christianty won the world, at least the part of the world despite the fact that modern people are(as one Russian auther said) "Neandertal'zi Duxa". Maybe some day a new religion will come...These candle holders were used in Christian world (especially Eastern), but in that case of Sevak I guess Movses' question is reasonable. But should we worry about that?Vahan==========Dear Vahan, I have nothing against Christianity. It is a good religion. If one must have a religion, it seems that one must otherwise we would not have invented, the Christianity would be my choice. It is our tendency to "throw out the baby with the bathwater" tha I am refrring to. Watch any travel ad or travel documentary about Greece and tell me what you see.I don't ever remember seeing a church, besides their greatest church is now a mosque. Greek literature is a requisite all ove r the world, Greek mythology is taugh in every school, Greek architecture is well known, and mind you, all the above referes to the Pre-Christian Greek culture. Persians, now the champions of Islam, celebrate pre-Islamic culture, Nawruz is an oficial national holiday. Do we have an official holiday based on our ancient culture? Is Navasard a paid holiday anywhere? Anahit, Vahakn and Aramazt were interchanged just as the Greek, Roman and others were, it is no different from our adopting the new religion in due time. For that matter, did the Persians take our Aram-azt and called it A(hu)ramazd(a) or did we? It little matters. It is our extreme paranoia of anything pre 301 AD that tells about our strength and self assuredness, or the lack of it. That is, if we are so secure in our new religion then why are we so afraid of the old one, or, for that matter, from the more recent ones?=======However this whole exchange was initiated by Pandukht's question about Sevak's liaison(s).=======> a year a go i was in Armenia and this is the pictures that i have taken, > I have asked my friend "what the hell is this Jewish think > doing next to Sevaks Grave " he told me that it's not Jewish that i was > mistaking. > will i just opened the newspaper and her was this article By Gorge > Abelyan in NorHAyastan - Issue #26 and he just like me has > visited the grave side in 2001, he had asked the employees, and they > told him that Sevak had a Jewish "Girlfriend" many years > a go, and shi is the one who has placed the Hanukah at the memorial > side. > apparently this is not the first time that she has pleased Hanukah on > Sevaks Graveside, it has been removed from their many times, but soon > some one brings a new one.========This may answer part of the question.We read in Sevak's Erg Ergots (Song of Songs) which is based on the biblical Song of Solomon and it is written in the style. It is addressed to a Sulamitha, among many hints:"Yerousaghemoum erpeve cheghadz khartyash aghchikner,Doustrer hyusisi..." seems to refer to blond Jewish girls who have never been to Jerusalem. ..." Yes qez siroum em qo nakhapapi Soghomoni pes...." and in another place; "Vor im hin e ou vaghnjakan Ir bazmadaryan Hryakan aryan ev nor nor zartnadz ir srti nman..." You will find the complete poem in this forum searching the poetry section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Arpa jan,I guess I know what you mean.But on the other hand Christian Greek continuaton was Buzantium - with the richest Christian heritage. In Russia, for example, Greece is mainly associated with Buzantium, e.g. with Christianity. Roman Catholic Culture also prospered much. Almost all the artists of Renneisance payed attention to Bible and Evangelion, Christ. And for the literature Christianity was the source of inspiration.As for Armenians, Vardavar is a hetanos holiday,for instance. And there are some celebrated among people but not considered as national holidays. Another thing is that Armenia was always a province."Oskolok Vizantii". Vahan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 Arpa,Do you know something about Aramazd and Ahuramazd origins? I thought Aramazd's origin was Persian. Do you know some specific books or investigations about that?Vahan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 Shnorhakale me batsatrutyan hamar, inchpes nayev informatsyai. sakayn harstnelov im hrya barekamnerin haskatsa hetevyal@ vro irents mot aveli shat ogtagortsvum e 9 momerits baxkatsats momakal@, - >> http://www.imgegrt.com/product/thumbs/2011420t.gif http://www.imgegrt.com/product/thumbs/3001009t.gif http://www.judaicany.com/imagesjg/MenorahElectric_EM1010_57-50.jpg sik hryaner@ iysopes en batsatrum n@ra imast@ >>> . IntroductionPrint section Hanukkah (Hebrew for “dedication”), annual festival of the Jewish people celebrated on eight successive days. It begins on the 25th day of Kislev, the third month of the Jewish calendar, corresponding, approximately, to December in the Gregorian calendar. Hanukkah is also known as the Festival of Lights, Feast of Dedication, and Feast of the Maccabees. II. HistoryPrint section Hanukkah commemorates the rededication of the Temple of Jerusalem by Judas Maccabee in 165 BC. Advertisement Rededication was necessary because Antiochus IV Epiphanes, king of Syria and overlord of Palestine, had profaned (defiled) the temple. In 168 BC, on a date corresponding approximately to December 25 in the Gregorian calendar, the temple was dedicated to the worship of the pagan god Zeus Olympius by order of Antiochus, who forbade the practice of Judaism. An altar to Zeus was set up on the high altar. When Judas Maccabee recaptured Jerusalem three years later, he had the temple purged and a new altar put up in place of the desecrated one. The temple was then rededicated to God with festivities that lasted eight days (see 1 Maccabees chapters 3 and 4). According to tradition, only a one-day supply of nondesecrated olive oil could be found for the rededication, but that small quantity burned miraculously for eight days. Jews commemorate this event by lighting candles for the eight nights of Hanukkah. The principal source for the story of Hanukkah is the Talmud. III. Modern Celebration of Hanukkah Print section The principal feature of present-day Hanukkah celebrations is the lighting of candles, one the first night, two the second, and so on until eight candles have been lit in a special candelabrum called a menorah. A Hanukkah menorah has eight branches and a holder for an extra candle that is used to light the others. (A seven-branched menorah that also has its origins in biblical times is now a symbol for the state of Israel.) A blessing is said each night as the Hanukkah candles are lit. Hanukkah is a festive family occasion, with special foods and songs. Children generally receive small gifts or money, known as Hanukkah gelt (money), each evening after the candles are lit. Foods fried in oil, such as latkes (potato pancakes) and doughnuts, commemorate the miracle of the oil. Sweet foods also are popular, and children may receive chocolate coins in place of Hanukkah gelt. Songs also play a part in the festivities and remind the family of the events commemorated.Traditionally, Hanukkah was one of the only times that rabbis permitted games of chance. Children sometimes play games with a spinning top called a dreidel during the eight days of the festival. Before play, each player puts a certain number of coins, candies, or another object into a “pot.” One player then spins the dreidel. Each of the four sides of the dreidel bears a letter of the Hebrew alphabet, and the side that lands up when the dreidel stops spinning indicates which part of the pot the player will receive. The Hebrew letter nun indicates “nothing”; the letter gimel, “all”; hei, “half”; and shin, “put in” or “match the pot.” Over time, these letters came to stand for the Hebrew phrase Nes gadol haya sham (“A great miracle happened there”). Children also play by guessing which letter will appear when the dreidel stops, with the winner claiming the pot. In Israel, the letter pei, for the word po (“here”), is substituted for shin on the dreidel, changing the resulting phrase to “A great miracle happened here.” Contributed By: Saul Lieberman, M.A., D.H.L., Ph.D.Late Distinguished Service Professor of Talmud and Rector of the Rabbinical School, Jewish Theological Seminary of America. Author of Greek in Jewish Palestine and Hellenism in Jewish Palestine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 sakayn yes norits chem haskanum te inchu e indz mot t@pavorvats te sa hryaneri n@shan e. de lav yes sxalvetsy ba et terty xmbagir@? ba hodvats gror@?? te iysnun momakali 7 momerov`n el ka ??? deinch pntrem, sharunakem tesnem inch durs k@ga. 7 Branch Brass Hanukah http://auction2.inetu.net/member/monarchipark/hannaka.jpg isk sa el 7 momeri hamar e, lseq liovin molorvetsy hima arden, saranq ban u gorts chunen momakalner en hnarum. [ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: PandukhT ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 sa el mek urish@ >> Judaica - Magnificent Italian Pewter Hanukah MenorahThis is a wonderful Italian pewter Hanukah menorah, in the style of a very old North-African (Morocco) example. It can be hanged on the wall or be displayed, for use with oil or candles. It has wick inside the holes for lighting the oil. The back plate is highly ornamented with Moorish arches and ancient motives, birds, floral elements. http://www.judaica.hu/ebay/menorahit1.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 http://www.pixhost.com/pixv/valafan9/1.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 Movses jan,what was the point in that article - why the Jewish symbol is on Sevak's Grave or whether or not that stuff is Jewish? These are 2 different questions might be asked. It seems to me that what was on the Grave was Jewish.Vahan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 Vahan jan - point of the article was - why is the Jewish symbol on Sevak's Grave. yev sa voch te harts er iyl boroq, te inchu Paruyr Sevaki Shirmaqari mot hryai nshan ka. de patasxan@ te inchu ka arden imatsanq, isk yerkrod@ te sa hryai nshan e te voch kimanam shat shutov hesa mi hat Rabbi em kanchelu mot@s [ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: PandukhT ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 The presence in Armenian art of the "star of David" symbol that was mentioned earlier has nothing at all to do with Jewish artisans. It is very widespread, for example you can see one in Ani's citadel palace church, from the 7th century: http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/citadel/citadel8s.jpg And on one of the two giant khatchkars at Aprank monastery, near Erzincan, from the 13th century. http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/aprank/aprank12s.jpg Actually the "star of David" symbol is not really the corect term, as it now has unpleasant undertones of Zionism. The proper art term is "seal of Solomon". However,in Armenia it may have no connection at all with ancient Israel, and may just be a local talisman symbol, and not even be connected with Christianity: I have a pottery sherd from Ani with a Solomon's seal motif on it, and such pots very very rarely had Christian religous symbols on them - mostly they had secular motifs or things like strange mythical creatures. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 Thank you bellthecat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 Hey guys,Actually, Biblical motives were widespread in all the Christian world.(One can meet them in architecture as well as in other arts)For example, if you take the pictures of Van's Church you will see a lot epizodes presented from Bible - Adam and Eva, Apostoles,... Of course, David's star is one of them and may be found also in/on Ortodox and Catholic Churches.Bayz ays depk@ mikich urish e: Inch vor mek@ berel drel e momakal@, ev harz e zagum, te inchu(@st Movsesi asaz hodvazi)? Vahan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 Bellthecat, How can you dismiss Star of David/Solomon symbol found in Armenian artifacts as having nothing to do with Jewish influence when eminent ROA geneticist Yepiskoposyan found that Armenians have 1/3 of the percentage of males who have y-chromosome of Kohanim (Jewish priests) as do Sephardim males. BOTTOM LINE, I do not trust ANY conclusion made by ANY Turk about Armenians or their history, vis-a-vis Armenian-Jewish cultural matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 Hagarag is he a turk ?? ->bellthecat<- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 You tell me. Are you sure of their background? Some of the comments of Bellthecat have seemed pro-Turkish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 HAgarag it's not pro-turkish it's PRO+++turkish and one more think last fallow the original topic. MOvses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hagarag:Bellthecat,How can you dismiss Star of David/Solomon symbol found in Armenian artifacts as having nothing to do with Jewish influence when eminent ROA geneticist Yepiskoposyan found that Armenians have 1/3 of the percentage of males who have y-chromosome of Kohanim (Jewish priests) as do Sephardim males.The Hebrews absorbed huge numbers of aboriginal Near Easterners after they migrated out of Egypt. Armenians, being largely of Near Eastern ancestry, share a good deal of ancestry with the Sephardic Jews, regardless of any direct "influence" on one another. In other words, you don't need to invent a more recent Jewish connection to explain the genetic links. One should not be surprised to see shared ancestry between Hebrews and Armenians when the former assimilated, almost as part of their genesis, massive numbers of the cousins of the latter.As a side note, Jews typically do not like to entertain the prospect of an Armenian connection, and would downplay its significance if faced with "proof". I think they are much more hostile to the idea than the Armenians are. Similar to some other "creation myths", the self-image of Jews involves glorifying one aggressive group over other, "conquered" components of their ancestry, which they prefer to sweep under the rug. Armenians on the other hand are perfectly happy to have originated as a mixture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Twilight Bark, You seem to be clinging to outdated methods for determining the origins of peoples. The historical record is very subjective and language characteristics can be fluid over time. DNA studies are the state-of-the-art method of determining not only the connections between peoples but also the timeframe and nature of these connections. Yepiskoposyan has determined tht the Armenian/Hebrew connection commenced approximately three thousand years ago, which would place it at about the time of the forced exodus of the northern Hebrew nation of Israel. i suggest that your future conclusions be based upon these types of studies as opposed to relying upon the historical record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hagarag:You seem to be clinging to outdated methods for determining the origins of peoples.Yes, I am a regular dinosaur. quoteThe historical record is very subjective and language characteristics can be fluid over time.As you must have noticed, that has been my stance on these matters. quoteDNA studies are the state-of-the-art method of determining not only the connections between peoples but also the timeframe and nature of these connections. Yepiskoposyan has determined tht the Armenian/Hebrew connection commenced approximately three thousand years ago, which would place it at about the time of the forced exodus of the northern Hebrew nation of Israel.Although I do not have hard data in front of me, I suspect 3000 years falls either at or below the resolution of such methods. Since 3000 years also correspond to the approximate time of origin for the Armenian nation (~1300 BC for the Hayasa-Azzi province , ~900 BC for the Urartu federation), what you say does not really contradict what I said. quotei suggest that your future conclusions be based upon these types of studies as opposed to relying upon the historical record.Aww, do I have to? .Seriously, don't discard the "historical record" yet. If you can avoid personal biases, and more importantly if you can avoid accepting other peoples' biases as fact just because they have stiff upper lips, "historical record" does contain many valuable pieces of information. Genetics adds to our toolbox, it does not discard it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyeflyer Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 T.B. As usual you are quite perceptive and as usual quite right.I think the real question we all ask is how are we all interrelated and connected. Weren't we all taught from childhood we are all children of Noah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Dear Hagarag,According to you:"DNA studies are the state-of-the-art method of determining not only the connections between peoples but also the timeframe and nature of these connections." Well, are you doing a genetic research yourself? If a scientist says that A might be equal to B it will PROBABLY be right untill another one says or prooves that or vice versa(shows that it cannot happen). So, even now the genetic approach in history is not exact(myagko govorya). The problem is that some scientists consider Jews to belong to Armenoid race. Did you know about that? Today people use not only Genetic approach to historical problems but also the advantages of nuclear physics,... But all these things don't work well when we study a problem of 3000 years old. And the best and most exact way is (that may seem strange) is the historical approach.i do not think that David's star is used by Armenians in their churches because there were some assimilation (?) several thousand years ago or something like that.See what Arpa says about that in "Astgik ev Asrvaz".Vahan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 ok I have spend 40 minuets talking to an rubay, his words are "7 post kindle holder is not a Hanukah", Hanukah has to have 9, and 7 post kindle holders are not common in Jewish coulter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hagarag:Bellthecat,How can you dismiss Star of David/Solomon symbol found in Armenian artifacts as having nothing to do with Jewish influence when eminent ROA geneticist Yepiskoposyan found that Armenians have 1/3 of the percentage of males who have y-chromosome of Kohanim (Jewish priests) as do Sephardim males.So what? How does genetics influence the creation of specific motifs? Are only Jews genetically capable of placing one equal sided triangle on top of another inverted equal sided triangle and appreciating the visual effect thus produced?!! quote:BOTTOM LINE, I do not trust ANY conclusion made by ANY Turk about Armenians or their history, vis-a-vis Armenian-Jewish cultural matters. Hmm... I don't really need to reply to such a silly comment - except to say that I do not trust ANY conclusion made by ANY Armenian about Armenians or their history - there are too many vested interests at work. And that would be good advice for anyone to follow, anywhere. I wonder what your interest is, vis-a-vis genetics and your desire to see some genetic connection to Jews? Are are you as willing to admit to the proven genetic connections between Jews and Arabs for example. Most of these migration stories, be they Jewish or Armenian or whatever, are really just historical myths. Israel arose out not out of assimilation or migration, but of a concious separation from close neighbours, which is why there is little genetic difference between Jews and Arabs.Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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