Anoushik Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 But I know it. style_images/master/snapback.png Sure, multiverses! And what is the point of the multiverses? Let's say it's true, but why do they exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Sure, multiverses! And what is the point of the multiverses? Let's say it's true, but why do they exist? style_images/master/snapback.png Quantum fluctuation. Ask your brother what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Answer to your question or my question? style_images/master/snapback.png Trying to stall the reply Sasun? Both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 (edited) Quantum fluctuation. Ask your brother what it is. style_images/master/snapback.png My brother doesn't care for these kind of questions Edited November 12, 2004 by anoushik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Trying to stall the reply Sasun? Both! style_images/master/snapback.png Me? No. What makes you think that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 My brother doesn't care for this kind of questions style_images/master/snapback.png Wait for tommorow, I'm too sleepy right now, so I'm going to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Me? No. What makes you think that? style_images/master/snapback.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Wait for tommorow, I'm too sleepy right now, so I'm going to bed. style_images/master/snapback.png OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Anoushik jan, my answer is, there is no justifiable reason for any death, nor there is death. Death of body is just that, nothing more. Life and death are a charade, the opposite sides of the same coin. They are part of the grand illusion which we call world. Fear (of death) is the result of ignorance (of soul's eternal life). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 I like your answer, Sasun Just one more question... what's the point of this world? ... I guess this is the question that it the hardest to answer and I doubt anyone really has an answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 I like your answer, Sasun Really? That's surprising to know But I shouldn't take credit for that, it has been known since ancient times. Just one more question... what's the point of this world? ... I guess this is the question that it the hardest to answer and I doubt anyone really has an answer style_images/master/snapback.png I remember that question answered but I forgot. I will try to find it, just for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Sasun, I like your answer because it's simple and good-natured ... How could you forget such an important answer regarding our world? Yes, I'd really appreciate it if you found the answer again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Sasun, I like your answer because it's simple and good-natured ... How could you forget such an important answer regarding our world? Yes, I'd really appreciate it if you found the answer again style_images/master/snapback.png OK, will do. I know another answer but it is not simple and I would have to write a whole page or even two. I will find a simple answer and get back to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Fear (of death) is the result of ignorance (of soul's eternal life). style_images/master/snapback.png Hzor er, Sasun jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Anushik, Without delving into mysticism, or at least minimizing it, let me try to express my take on your recent questions, and Domino and Sasun's thoughts. If one is not ready to accept at face value the "intelligent design of the universe", as implied by its suspiciously well-balanced physical constants, one is forced to accept a multitutde or an infinitude of universes. And the fundamental "leap of faith" in that case is the acceptance of the principle "if it can exist, it does exist". The next level, at which one asks "but why do these universes exist?", can be handled in essentially the same way. There are two possibilities: existence and non-existence. Since existence is a possibility (let's say a 50-50 proposition), one outcome is non-existence, in which case nobody is around to ask any of these questions. The other outcome is existence, because it is one of the logical possibilities. Existence happens because it can. This line of thought implies that logic is the source of existence, and a belief in god and a belief in logic are one and the same. It then follows that following the laws of logic (i.e. "god"s laws if you like) would reward the follower, while denying and working against reason and logic would punish those who try. Here, it is important to realize that the fictional world, and its concepts that humans have created, the epitome of which are beauty, love, and legacy, are also in the domain of reason. That is because we have finite lifetimes, and no matter how much "stuff" we accumulate, be it money, power, or fond memories, at the end we all end up exactly the same; death is a very efficient equalizer. The only way to impart meaning to our lives in the glorious fiction that we have created is to create beauty, love and protect those who deserve it, and leave a legacy of the same from us to the future. The "god" that is the equivalent of "logic", at least in character, resembles the god of the Old Testament; a legalistic, unforgiving one. The "god" that is centered around love and is forgiving in nature (but no less logical in the context of human consciousness) resembles more the Christian god. Of course I am using the term "god" as a metaphor, but for those who want to believe otherwise, it doesn't have to be. Anyway, such is this peasant's way of making sense of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 (edited) Anoushik, TB has sommed up my thought... if there are just universes appearing and disapearing, every possibilities exist, the possibility of life, and the possibility of non-life, since we can not be self-aware in the universe where life is not possible, obviously in the universe we will be self aware, life must exist. BTW TB, which position you take, intelligent design or Multiverse? I know, you will probably say that multiverse doesn't exclude intelligent design, but just the need of an intelligent design. Edited November 12, 2004 by Fadix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 BTW TB, which position you take, intelligent design or Multiverse? I know, you will probably say that multiverse doesn't exclude intelligent design, but just the need of an intelligent design. I mostly profess ignorance. That is my starting point. Having said that, I can point out which possibility is more appealing intellectually, and which one emotionally. Either way, you have to make a leap of faith: you either believe in some sort of anthropomorphic god, or a simple compelling principle that is nevertheless without proof. The second one (i.e. existence flows from logic itself) is the simpler, more economical one that is not at odds with what we know about the universe and existence, and is the intellectually more appealing one. Emotionally, I would love to have a fatherly (or motherly) god that takes care of us, rewards the good, punishes the bad, and unites loved ones in an afterlife of happiness. That is emotionally appealing, but intellectually unconvincing. In the end, we cannot say anything about the subject without the caveat that we are ignorant. And the best we can do is guess based on reason, and assume that reasoned extrapolation into the unknown is not only reasonable but also correct. In any event, we cannot presume to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 we cannot presume to know. style_images/master/snapback.png Touch. I should have used the term "convinced" because excluding a creator, this is what I am forced to accept... but if I accept that I am forced to accept the creator as well, because its possibility exist. BTW, I already knew you would come with an answer like that(professing ignorance, without clearly comming to a conclusion), but the bonehead I am still asked you that question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 (edited) I mostly profess ignorance. That is my starting point. Having said that, I can point out which possibility is more appealing intellectually, and which one emotionally. Either way, you have to make a leap of faith: you either believe in some sort of anthropomorphic god, or a simple compelling principle that is nevertheless without proof. The second one (i.e. existence flows from logic itself) is the simpler, more economical one that is not at odds with what we know about the universe and existence, and is the intellectually more appealing one. Emotionally, I would love to have a fatherly (or motherly) god that takes care of us, rewards the good, punishes the bad, and unites loved ones in an afterlife of happiness. That is emotionally appealing, but intellectually unconvincing. In the end, we cannot say anything about the subject without the caveat that we are ignorant. And the best we can do is guess based on reason, and assume that reasoned extrapolation into the unknown is not only reasonable but also correct. In any event, we cannot presume to know. style_images/master/snapback.png Intellect is a great tool towards knowledge, but it only goes to a certain point and then starts making circles. That is why one cannot know in the conventional way. There is however another way to know, and that is utilizing the hidden potential of man to know beyond 5 senses. One can know by experience, without using intellect, and that knowledge comes from mystical experience. The existence of God cannot be deduced by intellectual reasoning, but can be experienced mystically. It is done through a well established and tested science, which is called spiritual science, or science of yoga. While God has been experienced by many practicioners of spiritual science through mystical experience, I don't know anyone who has experienced mutliple universes. It is only a theory, one should point out a quite young and changing theory. It is up to the person which one is more realistic - God or mutliple universes? I pick the one which can be experienced. Edited November 12, 2004 by Sasun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Intellect is a great tool towards knowledge, but it only goes to a certain point and then starts making circles. That is why one cannot know in the conventional way. There is however another way to know, and that is utilizing the hidden potential of man to know beyond 5 senses. One can know by experience, without using intellect, and that knowledge comes from mystical experience. The existence of God cannot be deduced by intellectual reasoning, but can be experienced mystically. It is done through a well established and tested science, which is called spiritual science, or science of yoga. While God has been experienced by many practicioners of spiritual science through mystical experience, I don't know anyone who has experienced mutliple universes. It is only a theory, one should point out a quite young and changing theory. It is up to the person which one is more realistic - God or mutliple universes? I pick the one which can be experienced. style_images/master/snapback.png I am willing to live with my limitations. You may call your experiences "knowledge", but I view them as experiences. As for "realism", I already said what can be said about that. I respect different conceptualisations of the world, even when I don't see them as the most reasonable systems of thought, and especially if they are not peddled to me (I am not saying you are doing that). I appreciate the comfort you must have from "knowing" the truth. However, comfort is not what I seek in this context, and disbelief is not something I suspend lightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 I mostly profess ignorance. That is my starting point. Having said that, I can point out which possibility is more appealing intellectually, and which one emotionally. Either way, you have to make a leap of faith: you either believe in some sort of anthropomorphic god, or a simple compelling principle that is nevertheless without proof. The second one (i.e. existence flows from logic itself) is the simpler, more economical one that is not at odds with what we know about the universe and existence, and is the intellectually more appealing one. Emotionally, I would love to have a fatherly (or motherly) god that takes care of us, rewards the good, punishes the bad, and unites loved ones in an afterlife of happiness. That is emotionally appealing, but intellectually unconvincing. In the end, we cannot say anything about the subject without the caveat that we are ignorant. And the best we can do is guess based on reason, and assume that reasoned extrapolation into the unknown is not only reasonable but also correct. In any event, we cannot presume to know. style_images/master/snapback.png Yes, unfortunately I agree with you. I say unfortunately because as curious beings we want to know as much as possible about our existence: who we are, where are we coming from, where are we going. And it is really sad to know that we will never quite know. How has the human race dealt with that from the beginning of time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 Intellect is a great tool towards knowledge, but it only goes to a certain point and then starts making circles. That is why one cannot know in the conventional way. There is however another way to know, and that is utilizing the hidden potential of man to know beyond 5 senses. One can know by experience, without using intellect, and that knowledge comes from mystical experience. The existence of God cannot be deduced by intellectual reasoning, but can be experienced mystically. It is done through a well established and tested science, which is called spiritual science, or science of yoga. While God has been experienced by many practicioners of spiritual science through mystical experience, I don't know anyone who has experienced mutliple universes. It is only a theory, one should point out a quite young and changing theory. It is up to the person which one is more realistic - God or mutliple universes? I pick the one which can be experienced. style_images/master/snapback.png By "experiencing" God what kind of knowledge does one gain about our world and its purpose? And why are there so few people who've "experienced" God? Wouldn't God want for the majority (if not all) to know Him? Surely this would make people more good-hearted and optimistic and in turn the world would become a better place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 I am willing to live with my limitations. You may call your experiences "knowledge", but I view them as experiences. We all know through experience. Vision, touch, smell,etc. are all experiences and without sense experiences we would hardly know anything. Those who have mystic experiences tell us that what they experience is more real than what we all normally experience through senses. Another way to know that such experiences are real is when the mystic tells you what will happen to you tomorrow, and that things surely happens. Or if he sees things that he would not see with conventional ways, and that can be verified. Then one is bound to believe that his experiences are real albeit extraordinary ... or who knows, a lot of people would still choose to disbelieve for whatever reason. I appreciate the comfort you must have from "knowing" the truth. However, comfort is not what I seek in this context, and disbelief is not something I suspend lightly. style_images/master/snapback.png It's not about comfort, its about truth which is not always comfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 By "experiencing" God what kind of knowledge does one gain about our world and its purpose? Those who know God always tell that their experiences are beyond any verbal explanation, but they try to explain as much as they can. What they say is if you know God you pretty much have access to all knowledge. It is not like you know a new person whose name is God, but something much bigger. On the other hand there is never an end to that knowledge. This is really a wide subject, if you really want to learn you should read some of the mystics. And why are there so few people who've "experienced" God? Wouldn't God want for the majority (if not all) to know Him? Surely this would make people more good-hearted and optimistic and in turn the world would become a better place. style_images/master/snapback.png God wants everyone without exception to know Him. It's just that we don't want to listen to Him. God never forces us to know Him, and at the same time the path to knowledge is not an easy one, that is why most people are not willing to take it. It is difficult but not unattainable. One more thing - you don't have to believe anything by blind faith. You can always know what any mystic can know. If somebody tells you that he knows God and you are barred from knowing and should listen to him instead - it is surely wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 God wants everyone without exception to know Him. It's just that we don't want to listen to Him. God never forces us to know Him, and at the same time the path to knowledge is not an easy one, that is why most people are not willing to take it. It is difficult but not unattainable. Ok... As human beings one of our characteristics is to see the simplest and easiest ways in things, right? If God wants us to know Him why doesn't He just make it possible for us to know Him? Why should knowing Him be so difficult, especially now, when most people don't believe in God anymore? ... I attended Peter Balakian's discussion today at USC, and sitting there, looking at the horrific pictures and the various maps of historic Armenia and today's tiny Armenia, reminded me yet again why I call myself an atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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