What do you think ?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Boghos:
Why don´t we have the Bastermadjian Libaray at UCLA, etc, as you said. I think there are a number of reasons for that: 1. we are not as rich, 2. we have not valued education as much AS A COMMUNITY. But the most important one is in my view the following: I have a sense that the diaspora is still impregnated with the repulsion to Armenian things that came after the Genocide.

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I think your point about not being as rich is correct. We do not yet have families where generation after generation are successful to the point of having extra cash. How many Armenian families have three generations of white collar workers? How many have even two?

You're also right about not valuing education. Armenians were and are still a very much blue collar society when compared to a group like the Jews. We have a blue-collar mentality about higher education.

Neither my mom nor her brothers have four-year degrees (one has an AA). Of my grandparents' four grandsons, I am the only one with a college degree. On top of that, I am the only one who married someone with a college degree.

Compare that to my jermag khnamis (in-laws): my father-in-law has a master's (and he's my grandma's age!), my wife has a master's, and her three siblings each have bachelor's degrees. And each of my in-laws' four children married people with bachelor's degrees. All seven of my in-law's grandchildren will go to college. There isn't even a question about it.

As for your last point, what does being Armenian have to do with a Basturmadjian Library of Engineering? The buildings/institutions MJ is referring to do not contain Armenian items, just an Armenian surname on the building.

[Guest]

Let me see if I understand your point. the fact that you don´t have a Bastermadjian Library is connected to the points I mentioned, including the last one. The Bronfman Building at my alma mater was not simply an expression by a disinterested philantropist. It is also a state of fact, an affirmation message done with tax incentives. A move that benefits everybody but especially some. We do not have this kind of consciousness.

[Guest]

Boghos, let me start saying that talking about Dry Cleaning, Rug Selling and Grocery businesses, I didn't mean to generalize these things on the level of the entire Armenian Diaspora, but the one in the US, since this is what I know. I also have adequate understanding of the state of Syrian and Lebanese Diaspora. Would not make statements about French, UK and Brazilian Diasporas, since don’t know them. You say you can mention a dozen of successful Armenian businessmen in Diaspora. That’s the problem. I can also mention a dozen of them. But as you notice, this would not be considered statistically relevant information. So, I feel we are on the same page with you.

 

To be open, I cannot see what the two of us are arguing about? By in large we both are saying the same thing, I believe, only with different emotional expressions. At least I have no arguments with your statements.

 

But I also thing that a major part of the problem is due to the definition of Armenian identity in Diaspora. Why should it be associated with the Genocide? Genocide is only one episode in Armenian history.

 

You say that the successful ones run away from their Armenian roots. Of coarse they will run away from their roots, if their entire perception of their roots is massacres and parochialism. What is there to be proud of, that we have been killed and raped, and deported? If I would’ve thought that my being Armenian means a survivor, or better to say a victim of Genocide, I would also find nothing to be proud of it, and would run away from my roots. Add to this that being Armenian, I have to define myself through my feelings towards the Turks. Would I want such “victimologic” identity?

 

Now, you say that Armenians in Diaspora don’t value education. Of coarse you are right. By the way, this is in total contrast to Armenians in Hayastan. Of all things, the education has been the most valuable of all values in Armenia. It has been somewaht like a cult.

 

Regarding Armenians donating to Churches, again. I brought just one argument. I am far from claiming that this is the only reason. As far as the prestige is concerned, why can’t they gain prestige from donating their money to the Universities, Research Foundations, Concert Halls, etc. ? Why Carnegie Hall, but not Basturmadjian Hall?

 

The entire Armenian population is estimated to be somewhat around 8-9 million people. Well, I thing there were about 8-9 million Armenians in the world in the year 1000 BC(correction - I meant 1000 AC - MJ). I think it would be wrong to attribute the trend of growth of population just to the Genocide. Before the Genocide there were approximately 2 million Armenians in Western Armenia, and about 1 million or less in Eastern Armenia. Probably there were another million Armenian in the Russian Empire,Iran, Europe, Latin America, accumulated. I think the primary reason of such reverse trend is the fact that anybody who is successful, runs away from his identity, because there is nothing in that identity, the way it is defined, to be proud of.

 

I am not blaming anyone. I am just trying to answer some of your questions to the best of my understanding. I don’t think that anybody in Diaspora is obligated to do anything for Armenia. To the contrary, I think Armenia is the one who is obligated to do something for them in the broad sense of the word, and that is, first of all, giving them a reason to be proud of their identity.

 

I don’t know in what way was ARF getting ready to save the people in Armenia. What I know is from the late 70’s ARF had been collaborating with the Kremlin, serving its foreign intelligence needs (as well as of many other country's), and was engaged in negotiations with Gorbachev to be legalized in Armenia, and take over the government. ARF was the primary force engaged in the process of reversing the trend towards the independence of Armenia, and it entered Armenia as a force to stop the independence process. And you are right that the independence was achieved not because of our freedom loving spirit (though it was in place in small segments of population), but because of the more fundamental processes in the entire USSR. I think there is much more to be analyzed in this sense, too. The population of Armenia and the Diaspora were not ready for the independence, that’s why we have the picture we have today.

 

 

Mike, the names on the faces of the University Libraries are not mere names on the facade of the buildings. These are also a feeling of belonging for Armenian students, I think, and they have significant impact on hiring policies of the corresponding universities, as well as the programs that they might establish in Armenia.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 05, 2000).]

[Guest]

I must strongly disagree with the premise that Armenians do not value higher education. I think they equally value it as much as the Jews. That was their fatal flaw: the Turks became worried that their giavor population was becoming better educated than their peasant moslems. I think the reason Armenians do not have more philanthropy evidence as the Jews is for two reasons: There are way more Jews in the US than Armenians, plus, I dare say it, Armenians are a bit tighter with their money! I know I am!

[Guest]

Dear MJ,

 

This will be very easy to answer. I am in agreement with you and your expansions on the various arguments.

 

The only point which I did not make clear enough was the one on the ARF. I should have used quotation marks on the save. It was intended to be ironic on the ARF perception of itself as the saviour of all end everything Armenian.

 

You are quite right that the Armenians of Armenia have deep respect for education, more so than any other Armenian group. In the diaspora I find pockets of it. Not enough, clearly.

 

[This message has been edited by Boghos (edited November 05, 2000).]

[Guest]

Steve,

 

Sure there are much less Armenians in the US than Jews, but we are way behind them even in therms of the percentage proportion of the philanthropism.

 

But I disagree with your explanations of tightness. We are not tighter than the Jews. I think the reason is our lack of strategic mentality, and as Boghos has correctly mentioned, the parochialism, which goes back to the Church.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Half Breed:
I must strongly disagree with the premise that Armenians do not value higher education. I think they equally value it as much as the Jews. That was their fatal flaw: the Turks became worried that their giavor population was becoming better educated than their peasant moslems. I think the reason Armenians do not have more philanthropy evidence as the Jews is for two reasons: There are way more Jews in the US than Armenians, plus, I dare say it, Armenians are a bit tighter with their money! I know I am!

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For the Armenians in the large cities, this was quite true. But in the overall population this was a small portion. On average Armenians were better educated but this meant that they could read the Bible essentially. Higher education at that time was basically a foreign concept for the great majority of Armenians. Bear in mind that the Genocide hit the hardest in Cilicia, not exactly a bastion of higher learning. After that most people were concerned with surviving, and so they did. And prospered, and sent their kids to college, such as my parents and many others of their generation in many countries. But this does not take the same level of commitment that Jews have, at least not yet.

Armenians have done well in many parts of the US, but I don´t think it can even be dreamed that we can compare, even on a per capita basis, the Armenians and the Jews.


[This message has been edited by Boghos (edited November 05, 2000).]

[Guest]

MJ,

 

I am really surprised that you characterize Armenian businesses as mostly dry cleaning, rug selling or grocery business in a way that shows some contempt for the achievements of Armenian businessmen all over the world. I belive that you are biased by the recent immigrant community to Ca. and also, and probably more importantly, by the fact that the most common face of Armenian businessman in the US, at least, is that you describe. My contention is that there are many succesful Armenians in a variety of businesses. Of my personal acquaintance I could name at least 10 different people in 10 different countries that are known mostly locally in their respective countries. But that are nevertheless extremely succesful people. There is an Argentine cable TV baron (over US$ 400 million), number one construction company in Syria, a mobile phone operator in Izmir, Turkey, and so on. Is this a statistically meaningful list ? Of course not, but I do believe you are mistaken in characterizing Armenian businesses the way you did.

 

When it comes to finance, I think you are right. There are no Armenian VCs, and even in Wall Street I met very few Armenians, and most were not at all interested in the community. Moreover I am not aware of any top Armenian guy on the Street. That doesn´t mean that we don´t have the people to run VCs. I am absolutely convinced that we do. The problem is that, as I have said before, our communities for a number of reasons that have been hinted at here several times, drive people away. These are the communities run by these small business people like fiefdoms. By people that believe that they were bestowed with the best possible attributes to "govern" the people.

 

Why don´t we have the Bastermadjian Libaray at UCLA, etc, as you said. I think there are a number of reasons for that: 1. we are not as rich, 2. we have not valued education as much AS A COMMUNITY. But the most important one is in my view the following: I have a sense that the diaspora is still impregnated with the repulsion to Armenian things that came after the Genocide. As for the hundreds of Armenians that wrote and spoke about their patriotism and son on, there were thousands that felt the need to dettach themselves from their roots. Especially in the New World where absorption in any case was much easier. These people, and I am not blaming them at all, felt and feel that there was very little to gain to be associated with Armenians or anything Armenian. This is the painful truth, but since you started using some Freudian metaphores I thought I should bring this up: rejection.

 

Church donations are only in part a result of guilty feelings. These are not just Armenian, this is common to mankind. I think the Armenian version of it is covered with parochialism. In other words most Armenians are so provincial that they see this as a way of gainning prestige.

 

As to the friendliness of RofA. And I stress RofA, not the people in Armenia. I think that I never portrayed it as bad, just made the point that some simple things could go a long way.

 

Our independence movement was different in nature from many others. As much as Armenians have been the pioneers in the USSR (as in most everything ) this was caused by events beyond their control and desire, namely the disatrous policies of Gorbachov, and the economic diasarray that resulted from Brezhnev. Also, the diaspora had no role in the process, it rejoiced, but it was not an integral part fo it. So it is difficult to have a "popular" government, from the Armenian standpoint, in the sense that it really addresses the major concerns of people. The Karabagh movement was a narrow expression of the desire for freedom.

 

It is also almost impossible to have major diaspora participation in a situation completely foreign to it. On one hand the Ramgavar-AGBU axis that had been friendly to Soviet Armenia (and rightly so) was without a good grasp of what was going on (an in any case unprepared to act, even if it did), amd on the other hand the ARF was, after institutionally rejecting SA, getting ready to save the people.

 

Furthermore, the great majority of diasporans were not willing to give up the comfort of their lives in their respective countries. Nothing new here. But there should be no blame.

 

The genesis of the RofA is very different from what ideally people imagine. The nature of the diaspora much less "Armenian" than people wish. We jsut have to live with that.

 

Well, after making my usually unconnected points, and somewhat unrelated to the initial topic. I rest.

 

[This message has been edited by Boghos (edited November 05, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
Mike, the names on the faces of the University Libraries are not mere names on the facade of the buildings. These are also a feeling of belonging for Armenian students, I think, and they have significant impact on hiring policies of the corresponding universities, as well as the programs that they might establish in Armenia.

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That I understand, but what is not clear to me is how feeling or not feeling proud about one's heritage would affect that person donating to an institution. In other words, Joe Hyeforumian donates to USC and they establish the Hyeforumian School of Biology. How does Joe's Armenian pride enter into this? This is the only part of Boghos' post I didn't follow.

Steve, it seems like the Armenians I grew up around all valued hard work. Education wasn't discouraged, it just was not encouraged. As long as someone was working hard and/or had a good job that was fine. College did not have to enter into the equation. I think both the Jewish and Asian American populations see college as essential.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
But I also thing that a major part of the problem is due to the definition of Armenian identity in Diaspora. Why should it be associated with the Genocide? Genocide is only one episode in Armenian history.

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As long as there are living eyewitnesses, I believe it should be in the forefront of everyone's mind. I see it as a duty.

It is hard for it not to be so important for the diaspora, considering it obviously created the diaspora. I know that sounds ridiculously simple, but what else can be said? In addition for many people, their parents and grandparents were directly involved. That is so close as to be very important.

All this will change in the next generation (or maybe two for some families). For my son it will be something that happened to his great-great grandparents and their contemporaries. Far enough in the past, to be truly considered "history". He will not hear first-hand stories like I did. All Genocidal stories will be second-hand at best. Most will be third-hand. To him, the Genocide will not be a defining event.

He will certainly know about it, but given the last amongst us with painful memories will have left the earth, I will not feel compelled to have him dwell upon it.

My wacky $0.02.



[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 05, 2000).]

[Guest]

Mike,

 

Let me categorically disagree with you. I have no such duty, for example. To the contrary, I feel I have a duty to my children and their generation, and the generations coming after. If my grandparents, who were eyewitnesses, were alive, I am sure they would’ve felt the same way. I would be very reluctant to sacrifice the psyche of my children to the unclear duty to my grandparents. My children have no idea about the Genocide, and I will not tell them anything about it until they are adults. I would isolate them from any influence, which may inform or misinform them about the Genocide. I want healthy and potent children. My feeling is that you share these feelings, too.

 

But I disagree with you that the Genocide is the sole creator of the Diaspora. That statement means erasing the entire Armenian history before the Genocide.

 

Th Genocide is a shameful chapter in the Armenian history, that we need to overcome.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 05, 2000).]

[Guest]

I think where we differ philosophically is I see myself as part of a past and future chain within my family. You see yourself as the beginning of "new day" for your family. That may explain the difference in feelings of duty and obligation and to whom.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:

I would be very reluctant to sacrifice the psyche of my children to the unclear duty to my grandparents.

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What do you think and feel when you see interviews of people living today who describe the horrors they see in their mind? How do you react? Clearly, we all react differently. Should they just keep it to themselves? Should they suffer alone?

 

It should be more publicized than it is. Maybe then damn isolationist Americans would be more willing to support the UN when they try to stop the crap being inflicted upon adults and especially children in Bosnia, Chechnya, and Africa. I understand the world stepping into those areas is walking into an absolute quagmire, but someone has to at least try to step in.

 

Knowing about the Genocide from a very early age onward did not affect my psyche in any adverse way (at least I don't think it did ). Maybe I'm different, but I didn't grow up feeling ashamed and part of a group of victims.

 

I will tell my son about it when he is a teenager and old enough to understand and put it in perspective. I barely talk about even being Armenian to him now. He does not see the world as different races--an ideal mentality. Mommy has light hair with green eyes, Daddy has dark hair with brown eyes. Simple as that. To him different color skin is the same as different color shirts or pants.

 

quote:

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But I disagree with you that the Genocide is the sole creator of the Diaspora. That statement means erasing the entire Armenian history before the Genocide.

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You're ABSOLUTELY right. I was being self-centered on that one and just thinking of my own family and alot of Americans. Armenians began migrating for many reasons for many centuries prior to the 20th.

 

 

quote:

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Th Genocide is a shameful chapter in the Armenian history, that we need to overcome.

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Shameful for who??? Shameful chapter for turks and humanity, yes, but not shameful for Armenians. Is rape shameful for a woman? No. The last thing Armenians should feel about the Genocide is shame.

 

Yes, we do need to overcome it. To let it affect us for another generation or two would be giving turks additional indirect gains.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 05, 2000).]

[Guest]

What I don't understand and refuse to understand is why every time when we discuss

various aspects of Armenian Diaspora issues we always make references to the Jews, when we are not even remotely close to their way of life, thinking, goals etc.. If someone thinks that their way is the right way, please feel free to circumcise yourself, go to synagog, and do whatever Jews believe is appropriate.

 

[This message has been edited by gamavor (edited November 05, 2000).]

[Guest]

Mike,

 

I feel very sympathetic to these individuals, I feel very angry towards their parents and grandparents, and I feel ashamed of that episode in our history. I blame them for not inheriting me and my generation the country, like other nations have done. Well, I don’t think they have to suffer at all, in the first place, but I am not going to bury myself alive with them, either.

 

My children are teenagers. I am not talking to them about the Genocide. I think that it is something that they may discover at their will, when they want to do so.

[Guest]

Gamavor jan,

 

Israel is for many an interesting model for Armenia. We have several differences but also share a number of similarities. We should learn from whoever we can. Nothing worng or belitlleing about it.

[Guest]

MJ,

 

You've presented me with a very interesting point of view--possibly raising a child to adulthood as an Armenian without the Genocide entering into it. I'm not saying it will be hard to do, just different. It has always been such a "given" when discussing being Armenian, that to think of the world without it is strange. Often strange is good.

 

I believe our parents and grandparents were correct in teaching it to us at an early age, but with the next generation or maybe the one beyond that, it's relevancy is questionable. I'm not saying it should be forgotten or is not important, but relative to other Armenian issues, there are more pressing matters.

 

As I said once before here (and in the Glendale News-Press one time), I just want to see the Genocide recognized in my grandmother's lifetime. I think her pain of never knowing her grandparents made her (and my grandfather) try that much harder to be incredible, loving influences.

 

Similar with my other relatives, especially those that were there first-hand. The love they gave to me as a result of what they lived with created the debt I feel I now carry. I owe it to them to not forget the Genocide and to try my best to be to my kids and grandkids what they were to me.

 

My point of view comes from appreciation of those who made it out alive, as opposed to anger towards those that let it happen. A family and humanistic view as opposed to a historical and more global view.

[Guest]

Dear Boghos,

 

I'm well aware of the differences, but not so about similarities. I'm not against learning and using somebody else's positive experiences, but I'm against copying them, simply because we are not Jews, and our Diaspora in many ways is unique unlike Jews who have 2000 years old Diaspora.My firm conviction is that we should take decisions and behave in a manner that corresponds to our needs and goals taking into consideration only our Armenian realities.

[Guest]

Dear Gamavor,

 

I understand what you are saying. I agree that there are key differences, and that we should look at our own reality. When it comes to similarities I am refering more to the strategic and developmental aspects of a new country rather than other aspects.

[Guest]

Agree! I wish Armenians in Armenia enjoy the same standart of living as Jews in Tel Aviv do!

 

[This message has been edited by gamavor (edited November 06, 2000).]