What do you think ?

[Guest]

As gloomy and perhaps simplistic as this will sound, I feel that we should discuss it. The question is: are we, as a people like this (below) ? is it one of the causes of our troubles over time ?

 

Today I had lunch with an uncle of mine, from Rumania. he is a very well balanced individual and a nationalist in a constructive, non-sectarian manner. He said that it is such a pity that Armenians never seem to like/enjoy/support other Armenians, especially if they are doing well. My grandfather used to tell the story, ficticious for all I know, of Talaat being told that a party of Armenians was coming to kill him, to which he responded: "Armenians ? By the time they get here there will be only one left. They will fight each other to death."

[Guest]

Tigrannes I am in full agreement with you! Some of us like to wallow in the past. I dont think we should forget our past but if they want to whinge, why dont they get up and actually DO something about it!!

 

Oh everyone KNOWS we are disunited. Were are so known for it, and I think it's ridiculous. I have seen examples on this forum, but I wont point out because now is not a good time but for example, when some one new ever comes on unless they make a big show no-one exactly goes out of their way the welcome him/her.

 

I beleive that if we worked together through our troubles and after them instead of trying to backstab each other, then we would have got a LOT further than we have done....does'nt take a genius to see!

Every nation has it's troubles but it's how we deal with them that REALLY counts.

[Guest]

Our bonds are stronger than average, too!!!

 

10 Armenians and an odar in a room: united Hyes. The odar leaves and it's a different story...Just imagine if we did not have turkey to focus upon. It's the traditional idea of a "scapegoat" to focus one's aggression upon.

 

A question for the resident historians around here, have Armenians always been like this(specifically, prior to the late 1800's)?

[Guest]

Mike,

 

Just one comment

 

Turkey and Turks have nothing to do with the way I feel as an Armenian...

 

My bond with Armenia has nothing to do with the Turks.

[Guest]

Pilaf by the way I can understand where you are coming from about scape goats and using one group to focus on but I don't think it's as simple as that with the Turks. I'm sure you don't need me to remind you of what their government has done. I think Armenians feel frustrated because what they have done is STILL not recognised and they have not got their due punishment, then we can feel it is laid to rest more.

 

What i was saying is that not only the fact that we are moaning we are such a minority, ans we will die out, preserve the race, this and that, but if that's REALLY the way they feel then why not start to unite! I think that's more the issue than how friendly you are with the odars! BIG wow!!!

 

By the way I forgot I am not speaking to you you annoyed me the other day.

[Guest]

Oh, and another thing relating to this topic. What was all that Hayastani's and Diaspora's shit going on in the other topic the other day?? Hyes are hyes!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

Hayastantsi vs. Diaspora

 

I think some members of the Diaspora view the Hayastantsis as traitors for leaving the homeland. Keep in mind, the bulk of the Diaspora pre-late 1980's early 1990's was not in America by choice. I can't blame people for wanting what's best for their family, though.

 

I think the Diaspora has to invest more in the homeland. How can we not expect them to come join us in the Diaspora when we are having great financial success and the homeland is in ruins?

[Guest]

Thank you. I can see both sides of the story, though I am not stuck on one or the other. Just a question: is it just to do with this definition or is the difference ethnic or not? Because I don't know remeber: If it is I have no idea whether i am Diaspora or Hayastani.

 

What i was thinking was on that thread was there was a disscusion, on whether how trashy one of them were????

[Guest]

Hayastanti/Deghatsi= someone from Armenia, who has moved out.

 

Diasporan= Armenian born in another country.

[Guest]

Kazza,

 

You have misunderstood that thread, and the motivations beyond starting it. (:

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 02, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kazza:
By the way I forgot I am not speaking to you you annoyed me the other day.

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Speaking of unity...what did I do ? BTW, my post wasn't a response to yours. I did not see your post when I composed mine (we must have been typing at the same time!).

MJ, I understand your saying "Turkey and Turks have nothing to do with the way I feel as an Armenian", but don't you think having a common enemy (or however you want to characterize the issue) unites Armenians as a group? Or do you see that as one of the main dividing issues???

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by TigrannesIII:
I think the Diaspora has to invest more in the homeland.

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Rich,

Check out MJ's post from today over at "Hayastan vs. Diaspora", there are some real hindrances to investing.

[Guest]

Mike,

 

I do recognize that the "common enemy" unifies many segments of our nation. It is a fact.

 

But what I am trying to articulate here is that there couldn't be more destructive, harmful, psychologically invalid identification of nationality by reverse association (no personal offense) thing to do. So what, if the Turks cease to exist by a miracle today, does it imply that we also cease to exist as a nation?

 

I think the hate, in general, is one of the most disgusting feelings characteristic to human beings, and it is very easy to fall hostage to such a dirty feeling. There is nothing for Armenia – real or imaginary, to gain from a feeling of hate towards Turks. Hate is only destroying the social fabric of our national identity. This hate dooms us to elimination. The only looser of that feeling is us. Nothing will happen to Turkey as a result.

[Guest]

Invest in the common man, not the government.

 

What about that cognac? How much could Yerevantsi cognac sell for, considering it's considered better than French?

[Guest]

It's the nationalism that unites us. Hate for the Turks just happens to be part of that feeling right now.

 

And if the Turks cease to exist, we always have the Azeris....

 

The Turks will get what is coming to them. What goes around comes around.

[Guest]

I'm not advocating hatred of turks as an eternal uniting factor, I just wanted to acknowledge that it does unite us.

 

My point in my first post was that I think Armenians would be at each other's throats more without the turkish issue. That is, we'd have one less uniting factor. Your point is well taken MJ that uniting by "reverse association" is destructive. BTW, did you just coin that term?

 

Rich, I'm not a cognac fan, but I guess you've just given me reason to continue my periodic thread on Armenian Beers. I'll try to support my fellow Armenians again tonight by finding another kind

 

"No honey I'm not just drinking beer; this is for research and humanitarian causes."

[Guest]

I think your argument about being at each other’s throat is not convincing. So that not to be at each other’s throat, we have to have a positive agenda. That is what I was trying to articulate for as long as I have been in this forum

 

In my view, the only positive agenda that we can have to unite us is our statehood and its eternality. All other divisions are fine. One can be socialist, another one may be right wing conspirator , that doesn’t matter in the national picture.

 

BTW, our ancestors have died exactly for this cause – to build an eternal statehood. All the conversations about dying for the religion, or for some other reason are BS. This was the sole reason beyond the Genocide, by the way.

 

P.S. The story I told you about Therzian is about 10 years old. I think the reason of his loses was that he was to romantic, and naive. He invested under the circumstances of absence of any legislature providing him with any protections. That’s why he couldn’t defend himself in the court. I don’t think that this type of thing could’ve happen today, since Armenia has some kind of legislative framework in place, to protect foreign investors. There are a lot of foreign investors in Armenia today – primarily in software industry. They are primarily from Europe. One of the major Armenian Banks is owned (more than 50% shares) by a UK Armenian businessman. The problem are not the people in Armenia, but the inadequate legal framework.

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 02, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
In my view, the only positive agenda that we can have to unite us is our statehood and its eternality...{edited}...BTW, our ancestors have died exactly for this cause – to build an eternal statehood.

---

That is clearly a positive agenda for the future--how then do we address the past at the same time?

How about Armenia built new schools and businesses in Yerevan using turkish denialist slave labor? Kill yergu birds with meg stone.

[Guest]

Mike,

 

I think there is only one way of having Turks not deny the Genocide - have them not to be willing to deny it. At the end of the day, after everything is said and done about the resolutions on the Genocide, it will be up to Turkey to accept it or to deny it. There is no serious implication from these resolutions other than public opinion. But if this is all it is about, I am sure there are shortcuts.

[Guest]

I fear turkey will never acknowledge it and therefore all we are going to get is recognition from the rest of the world. It will be hard to focus on a positive future agenda until then. Dollars that could be going towards investment and education in Armenia will have be spent lobbying about the past.

 

A certain level of negative hatred is good at this point; complacency is the first step towards letting the issue just go, which is wrong.

[Guest]

Mike,

 

Let's build our country, and the chips will fall wherever they have to.

[Guest]

Boghos,

 

I think there is some truth to it, but also a lot of exaggeration. We are not that bad.

 

In my view we may be not the most supportive of each other nation, but we are not the worst example, either. I think our problem is the lack of unifying idea, and the unifying aspiration. The other reason of it is the host of absurd definitions of our identity.

 

We have been cheated by our own for centuries. This may have taken place for good reasons, sometimes, but it has generated generations of brainwashed, misguided, self-indulgent, but psychologically impotent scores of Armenians. I think things cannot be fixed in this generation, but there is a good chance in the next. Besides, a lot of filtering and sorting-out will take place in the coming 25 years, I think.

[Guest]

I've heard the story, also. We're definitely stubborn, my father and I can attest to that . I think we need to stop dwelling on the past and look to the future. Simple as that. Don't forget our past, just stop pitying ourselves. When you pity yourself you tend to become selfish. I think that's one of our major problems.

 

Hell, not even ASALA could keep themselves together.

[Guest]

We have had unifying objectives this century: genocide recognition and after independence, reconstruction of the homeland. The first being far easier.

 

We also have had sectarian/divisive forces working in the diaspora. In part that is a result of the Genocide. One can see that phenomenon in diasporas such as Albanian, Lithuanian and others of strongly nationalistic people. Ours is larger and our intimate knowledge of it makes it look worse.

Moreover whatever trauma these peoples might have gone through they pale compared to ours.

 

I do not wish to deny the positive sides of the Soviet Armenian experience. I have written to that effect here. However we have to recognize that one major difference between the Jewish diaspora and ours is that after independence instead of people flooding the homeland, the exact opposite happened. The Economist magazine last weekend carried an article about the depopulation of Armenia. There are numerous explanantions for this: first and foremost, unlike the Jews that lost everything during WWII, were persecuted by the Nazis and oppressed by the Soviets in Europe, most diaspora Armenians live a decent life in their respective countries; secondly, a quick recap of post-independence Armenia reveals an absurd situation: war, economic crime, blockade, political assassinations, masive emigration.

 

Still the country stands reasonably on two feet. In terms of poltical freedom we are far ahead of any neighbours, C. Asia, Belarus. The economy is in shambles, but it can improve.

 

I can´t understand how Armenians donate thousands of dollars to the church (dear friends if you think salvation will come this way, I humbly believe that you are mistaken) and other institutions but cannot devise intelligent ways of investing in Armenia. FOR PROFIT. The contention being that is not possible to do that. Funny that Armenians have thrived in the most difficult environments but when it comes to Armenia, nada.

 

I am not advocating aid, donations, or anything like that. I am talking about venture capital funds, managed by professionals, to run projects in Armenia, for example. I also think that the RofA should adopt a much friendlier stance towards the diaspora. This visa thing is ridiculous, even though I realize that in part it goes to finance consular expenses.

 

I think our future as a people lies in education and modernization of our institutions. Many of our best brains are outside Armenian life, and in my view rightly so, for a variety of reasons. Our unifying themes have to be constructive, I agree with Martin wholeheartedly.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Boghos:

I can´t understand how Armenians donate thousands of dollars to the church (dear friends if you think salvation will come this way, I humbly believe that you are mistaken) and other institutions but cannot devise intelligent ways of investing in Armenia. FOR PROFIT. The contention being that is not possible to do that. Funny that Armenians have thrived in the most difficult environments but when it comes to Armenia, nada.

I am not advocating aid, donations, or anything like that. I am talking about venture capital funds, managed by professionals, to run projects in Armenia, for example. I also think that the RofA should adopt a much friendlier stance towards the diaspora. ....

I think our future as a people lies in education and modernization of our institutions. Many of our best brains are outside Armenian life, and in my view rightly so, for a variety of reasons. Our unifying themes have to be constructive, I agree with Martin wholeheartedly.

---

Boghos,

I think the answers to your questions are simple - Armeians of Diaspora don't have investmor's mind. Our businessman primarily are in the areas of Dry Cleaning, Rug selling, or are in grocery business. That level is far from the VC mentality.

I have been studying the list of VC's in the US. Didn't come across any Armenian names in that line of business. And I am not talking about Armenian VC's.

How can we expect VC's functioning in Armenia, if there are none in the US.

By the way, KK has established a $100,000,000.00 VC in Armenia. But one businessman doesn’t make a climate.

As for the friendliness of the RoA to the Diaspora, I have to disagree with you. RoA is friendly to Diaspora short of Dual Citizenship. LTP had offered cabinet and other responsible positions to many Diasporan Armenians. Only two agreed to accept. The rest felt it would be easier to criticize.

The whole premise of Kocharayan’s Presidency, and one of the primary sources of his conflict with LTP has been the issue of “friendliness” towards Diaspora. He used to claim that things in Armenia would be much easier if we can unify the entire Armenian nation around RofA. As you know, not much has changed since his presidency.

I think the primary reason is that for the majority of the Diaspora it is more convenient if Armenia is not “friendly” to them. Because, otherwise, the ball may be in Diaspora’s court, and it may be in a position of not finding any other excuses to not participate in the build-up of the country.

Finally, what does by in large the Diaspora have to do with Armenia, if the litmus test of Armenian patriotism (understand nationalism under it) is the level of hate towards Turks?

I don’t want to generalize this last statement to the level of all Diasporans, because we are aware of a relatively small number of constructive ones.

Finally, about why do people prefer to donate to Churches, instead of investing. I think the primary issue is that they feel guilty for their lifestyle, and the way they have accumulated capital. At the sunset of their life, they hope to bribe God to get a ticket to Heaven. Recall Tumanyan’s Ktak, which I have posted in the Armenian Poetry section.

Working at UCLA and UofM, I have always noticed things like Shapiro Library of Engineering Literature, Rosenberg Hull, Openhaimer Lab, etc. (I am making the names up, but you get the idea, I am sure). I have seen only a couple of Armenian Hulls in Universities – one at USC, another at the UofM. I can assure you that this practice has a huge impact in the hiring policies of the Universities.

But in Armenian reality, I have only come across things like “Der ev Dikin Palandjian Srah,” etc. in th Churches.

OK. You know where I am headed.