Paul bunyan Posted May 25, 2001 Report Share Posted May 25, 2001 I read recently that the government of NKR was essentially giving land to Armenians and a small grubstake; i.e.a farm animal or two to encourage the refugees to move back to the NKR I know that the financially strapped governments of Armenia and Artsakhcannot of course due much to supportthe regions Armenia is only I think helping out in Datsmayri in Kovsakandoes anyone know which government Armenia or Artsakh has claim to Kovsakan? and what the price for land is in Kovsakan? also due to rumours of unspecified corruption in both governments I would like to hear from anyone who has land or has purchased land in either Kovsakan or ArtsaxThank you for your assistance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted May 25, 2001 Report Share Posted May 25, 2001 I think you should ask yourself some moral questions first. Where has this land come from? If it former soviet state owned land, then it was probably confiscated without compensation from its original owners. If it was privately owned land abandoned by its owners, be they Armenian or Azeri, then it is still morally and legally their property. Your words remind me of a documentary on Cyprus I saw once, In a part of it were some awfull English people who had bought up all of a formerly Greek village in northern Cyprus, and conveted it to holiday homes. They did not have the tinyest concern about what had happened to the previous owners - I hope that one day they find themselves kicked out on their arse, without a penny of compensation. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul bunyan Posted May 25, 2001 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2001 You gotta be kidding?! bellthecat land belonged to azeri c'mon willyathe lands of Armenians go back many many centuries before Athens and Rometo the very days of their ancestors the Hurrians, Mitanni, and the people of Urartu the turks and their allies have caused unimaginable atrocities upon the Armenians for many years need I remind you of the pograms in sumgait AND the azeri-Artsax war which the azeri are always threatening to start up again the azeri cannot 'own' land in Artsakh ever again I don't know about the english people in Cyprus if I am able to purchase land in the reclaimed Armenian regions and Artsakhit is my plan to resettle Armenian refugees on farmland NOT to put up some financially risky holiday camp for odars and odaresses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted May 27, 2001 Report Share Posted May 27, 2001 You are a chauvanistic thug. If fascists like you ever get to positions of power, Artsak will not survive the decade. (Remember, people like you did get to be in positions of power in Armenia in 1919 - and began to kick out or oppress non-Armenians - and thus gave Kemalist Turkey the excuse to invade and annex Kars and Igdir). Any study of the history of Artsakh will show that it has had a substantial non-Armenian population for centuries. It is unimportant how they got that land, when considering their modern descendents legal rights. All the international bodies demand that the return of displaced persons should be the end result of a permanent NK peace treaty. You have no right to block any such return, or force their permanent removal. You remind me of some MHP fascist saying that Armenians can have no place in Turkey - same words, same black heart. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 27, 2001 Report Share Posted May 27, 2001 bell I think that the former soviet republics need people like you in the politics, you are a politically mature person, if I were you I will be engaged in transcaucasian politics, in order to reach peace in caucasus you need politicians who can change the menthality of people there, then it's easy to rich peace and prosperity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 27, 2001 Report Share Posted May 27, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:You have no right to block any such return, or force their permanent removal. You remind me of some MHP fascist saying that Armenians can have no place in Turkey - same words, same black heart.SteveSome other MHP supporters disagree with those who say armenians have no chance of return & reparation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted May 27, 2001 Report Share Posted May 27, 2001 quote:Originally posted by circassian:Some other MHP supporters disagree with those who say armenians have no chance of return & reparation.Do they? For reparation, there has to have been something to be "repaired" and something that "broke" it - i.e: the genocide, and I don't really see the MHP admitting that happened! Although paying damages to individual Armenians in theory does not need to have political ramifications like genocide recognition, in practice it probably will.But it was just the right of Armenians in Turkey to expect to live normally that I was referring to - not to have bombs thrown in churches, graveyards vandalised, community property confiscated, receive violent threats by phone just because their name ends in "ian", etc. MHP politicians and others may not be openly hostile and encourage such actions - but they do not need to be, they have supporters to do the dirty work. And it seems that Paul Bunyan ia arguing for the same treatment to be inflicted on Turks or Kurds in Artsakh!SteveOh - thanks for the kind words, Tornado. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 28, 2001 Report Share Posted May 28, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:nd it seems that Paul Bunyan ia arguing for the same treatment to be inflicted on Turks or Kurds in Artsakh!SteveOh - thanks for the kind words, Tornado.dear steve I know that Aersakh is karabagh, and I can immagine that there live kurds and Azeri's, may be assyrian too. but I think it's impossible to find Turks there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted May 28, 2001 Report Share Posted May 28, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Tornado:dear steve I know that Aersakh is karabagh, and I can immagine that there live kurds and Azeri's, may be assyrian too. but I think it's impossible to find Turks there.Well, there are probably none there now! Actually, when I said Turks, I was thinking of Azeris, as in Azeri Turks, but I think that you are correct in saying that most of the non-Armenians in Artsakh / NK were actually Kurds (although I believe most spoke Azeri Turkish).Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted May 28, 2001 Report Share Posted May 28, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:I think you should ask yourself some moral questions first. Where has this land come from? If it former soviet state owned land, then it was probably confiscated without compensation from its original owners. If it was privately owned land abandoned by its owners, be they Armenian or Azeri, then it is still morally and legally their property. Your words remind me of a documentary on Cyprus I saw once, In a part of it were some awfull English people who had bought up all of a formerly Greek village in northern Cyprus, and conveted it to holiday homes. They did not have the tinyest concern about what had happened to the previous owners - I hope that one day they find themselves kicked out on their arse, without a penny of compensation.SteveThat's really bad. I know plenty of villages now in most parts of cyprus, taken over by these type of english people. even in Spain, there are these eglish "neo" types that are making the spanish people's lives hell, and they are in someone else's country. Have you heard of Ayia Napa, the "club" capital of cyprus? That's predomintley english now. I think, although I fit in the "young" category that sucks big time because I dont think it's right to disrespect and spoil a country's cultlre like that. You feel it more when It's you won country of origin. Mind you, some greeks are getting some thing out of it by owning some of the clubs but that isnt really the point. I also think there should be more unity in Cyprus between armenia, greek and turkish cypriots, and begin working to it like the people in england now are starting to. But this is a whole diffrent story, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 29, 2001 Report Share Posted May 29, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:Well, there are probably none there now! Actually, when I said Turks, I was thinking of Azeris, as in Azeri Turks, but I think that you are correct in saying that most of the non-Armenians in Artsakh / NK were actually Kurds (although I believe most spoke Azeri Turkish).SteveAch zo almost each Azeri with the exception of few which I've met don't like to be associated with the Turks, sometimes you may get in trouble, because once one of them told me online that it is very offensive to them. Also I have noticed menthality differences between the azeri's of the former soviet union and the Iranian Azeri's. the latter say that the former are historically not Azeri but Aranian or Caucasian Albanian, whatever this may be.But as I know among the christians of caucasus exist a menthality not distinguish between the moslem people of Caucasus and see them all as enemies or at least as unwished neigbours,The Vice versa is also true but in a lesser degree. This is a menthality by which caucasus will never be prosprate. believe me Caucasus can be paradice, there is not much needed but only changing the ethnic amd clan menthalities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted May 29, 2001 Report Share Posted May 29, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Tornado:Ach zo almost each Azeri with the exception of few which I've met don't like to be associated with the Turks, sometimes you may get in trouble, because once one of them told me online that it is very offensive to them. Also I have noticed menthality differences between the azeri's of the former soviet union and the Iranian Azeri's. the latter say that the former are historically not Azeri but Aranian or Caucasian Albanian, whatever this may be.As a matter of fact, you are right. Azeris of the republic of Azerbaijan are not only mentally, but also ethnically different from those of Iran. In fact, until 1918 they have not even been called Azeris, and there has not ever been any Azerbaijan outside the Iranian borders. This state was created and the name Azeri was given to them for the sole purpose of pealing off the real Azerbaijan from Iran – something that pops up even in our days. Azeris are not Turks. Though, certainly there is some Turkish mixture into their composition. Moreover, while their vocabulary is rather Turkic, the structure of their grammar is not - in fact the structure of their grammar is closer to the Iranian structure, to the best of my knowledge. Their identification with the Turks is one of the most stupid and irrational things that many Armenians do.[ May 29, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul bunyan Posted May 31, 2001 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 Once again I ask for information on land in Artsakh and regions pleaseno more name calling and quibbles about azeris or turks like foreign companies that buy closed businesses and reopen them I am planning to develope businesses in Artsakh and regions and would like to hear from anyone who has purchased land and started a business in Artsakh or Kashatar or Karvajar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:Do they? For reparation, there has to have been something to be "repaired" and something that "broke" it - i.e: the genocide, and I don't really see the MHP admitting that happened! Although paying damages to individual Armenians in theory does not need to have political ramifications like genocide recognition, in practice it probably will.But it was just the right of Armenians in Turkey to expect to live normally that I was referring to - not to have bombs thrown in churches, graveyards vandalised, community property confiscated, receive violent threats by phone just because their name ends in "ian", etc. MHP politicians and others may not be openly hostile and encourage such actions - but they do not need to be, they have supporters to do the dirty work. And it seems that Paul Bunyan ia arguing for the same treatment to be inflicted on Turks or Kurds in Artsakh!SteveOh - thanks for the kind words, Tornado.SteveHave you actually met any MHP supporters while you were in Turkey .Reparations means to be able to claim what was once armenian property(largely managed by gov. trusts or neglected) can again once again become as such.I also have some land & reparations claims from russians that dates back to 1864 , but hey, I guess I should wait my turn till the most important diasporean armenian claims are dealt with.Diasporean Circassians have not been genocided nor their property has ever been stolen from them , we are just on a one long lasting trip to anatolia which is actually a bit of touristic trip as it turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Circassian, yes I have met a few (well probably hundreds, but I would be unaware of that unless the subject of politics came up). A lot of their votes seems to come as a reaction to living next to Kurdish areas (I think Kars, Erzurum, and Erzincan all have MHP MPs, don't they?). Most ordinary MHP supporters I have met are quite open about their party being a Fascist party, they don't seem to think there is anything wrong with it being thus. I remember being in a taxi in Erzurum, when the driver asked me (with genuine innocence)something like "Is it correct that in Europe Hitler is seen as a bad person, can you tell me why?" He then went on to sing a MHP song about how wonderful it was to be a Turk, and how they were the best people in the world, and how fine it is to die for Turkey. When I was in Erzurum, a lot of Kurdish houses had been vandalised by MHP people painting red crescents on the outside (3 crescents is the MHP party symbol isn'it?). This was during the mid 1990s. I think you will find that most Armenian property that will be worth claiming will be right in the middle of modern Turkish towns - and worth a small fortune now, which is why there will not be reparations. I know one woman who has title deeds to land that is now a large part of Adana airport! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Cicassian - Its different because Militia movement is not considered an ordinary political party - most of us think they are kooks. They would never get anywhere near 20% of the vote etc. Yea - MHP is like American militia movements all right - a bunch of thugs and crazies - i agree... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:Cicassian -Its different because Militia movement is not considered an ordinary political party - most of us think they are kooks. They would never get anywhere near 20% of the vote etc. Yea - MHP is like American militia movements all right - a bunch of thugs and crazies - i agree...ThothJust because people are inarticulate & uneducated does not mean they deserve second best when it comes to communication.A bunch of thugs and crazies ?I agree totally , i also believe this to be an accurate description of ASALA too.Most turkish people think you "the Diasporean Armenians " as Kooks in a same way you seem to regard the militia. Irony do have a sense justice after all . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 2, 2001 Report Share Posted June 2, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:I think you will find that most Armenian property that will be worth claiming will be right in the middle of modern Turkish towns - and worth a small fortune now, which is why there will not be reparations. I know one woman who has title deeds to land that is now a large part of Adana airport! SteveWould not surprise me to find that armenians own large part of turkish towns including kayseri where i personally known people who currently live in armenian property & not hide it & not even against the idea of compensating the previous owner or coming to an arrangement with claimant in the court of law.As long as the claim is legitimate then the law in obliged to deal with it.As to the your experiences of MHP supportes ,would you mind doing me a favor by comparing them with BNP people UK or Militia Movement US & Canada and perhaps inform me as to how & why MHP is any different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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