Guest Fadi Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote: Criticizing and complaining has never solved anything or has never found any solutions to any problems. When you find a logical solution to a problem then you can criticize all you like. Just like if you do not have a antibiotic / disinfecting medicine you better not touch that wound you have, since by touching a wound and living it open would cous even bigger problems. Karj Asats Jur mi tsetsi, mer Hayuhineri patvi het el mi xara, gyur chka vor shun chunena. Movses I do not agree with all what you said here, but I think you made also a very good point. You know, this remember me Socrates separation between those that see things wrong AND those not only see these things, but are able to find solutions and also take actions etc... This is the main issue here... and also it was my main problem with Baliozian work... it is often easy to criticize, everyone can do it, and yes we need to criticize, but it is not critics that change things, when on the other hand there is no solutions to correct these situations. I was one of the only supporting Hagarag, but now, I am just bored with the same old song, of "they are like this and that" "I am this and that" these kinds of things never changed anything... This being said, if ever Hagarag write his book, I will do everything to get that book, perhaps, I can share a copy with wh00t, since he as well is interested to read it. But again sorry Hagarag, but I will read it as a humourious work. [ May 09, 2002, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Domino ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 Domino, Read it any way that you wish, but do read it and do PURCHASE it. You see, I am still a capitalist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyeflyer Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 FadiI often think of what Einstien said(the formulation of a broblem is often more important than the solution. HagaragWomen are women ,men are men,people are people.The ego and the id.Self motivation:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hagarag:Domino, Read it any way that you wish, but do read it and do PURCHASE it. You see, I am still a capitalist.I will get a copy too. Promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 highflyer Yes the formulation of the problem is important, because without this formulation you can't find the solution(generaly) But I never agreed with this statment of Einstein, and will never agree with it... you know why ? Because generally speaking you canèt find the solution without formulating it previously... then finding the solution mean, forumlating it and comming to a conclusion... and here is exaclly Socrates point, Einstein may be a Genious in physic, but he was also knwon sometimes to make very weird comments, some physicists go as far as saying that Einstein was as fool as he was a Genious... Einstein was very far of being always rational... his spiritualism has gone as far as telling that religion is blind without science, and science was lame without religion... and then he claimed that he was not religious but spiritual, when he was still perpetuating his idea's of lame science without religion, mixing religion, Philosophy and spirituality... and more, again this same Einstein replic, by saying that Science has its place and Religion has his... when after he brings god in science and say that God have ordered everything... the same person that say both should not be mixed. Just take any biography of Einstein and you will see a lots of examples like this... Einstein may have been one of the best scientific of history, but if you want to quote him as a philosophical person, then I will say that you have a lots better person to find, like Socrates, Descartes etc... Now, what I said was just a vague opinion etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 This being said, it is time to come on Socrates again... like I said, the solution can not be less important, when it takes previously a formulation... excally the reason why Socrates, say the second stade is more important, because the second stade do not only mean you understand what is wrong(the first stade) but you act and find solutions... so the second stade can only be possible if previously you passed from the first one... so for this the Hagarags and Balozlians of our societies, are those that only criticise, but are unable to find solutions... but we need these peoples... we need everyone(of course here I ame excluding, Marie, AKA Noush, Aboush, and the likes of A.R.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 “The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point, however, is to change it.” ---Good Old Marx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 We need critics, thinkers, as well as doers. This obvious fact has been abused countless times by untalented pundits to justify their verbal diarrhea. While we need our thinkers, it does not mean we need any and all "thinkers". In the case of Baliozian, we need a full-time "devotee" cleaning up his mess after him. The combination may indeed resemble something valuable. Without a critic's critic, Baliozian's output is a net negative. Not terribly consequential perhaps, but a negative one nonetheless. We have as much use for insincere charlatans wrapping themselves in the flag of international enlightenment, but only out to score against their former paymasters, as we need flag-waving hate-monger chauvinists. As for Hagarag, he may often be preoccupied with himself, and say silly things more often than he probably should. But he at least seems to care about the individual Armenian even if it shows mostly as some sort of snobbery. His net message cannot be summarized as "If you know what's good for you, shed your backward identity and assimilate. That will piss off the big-wigs that didn't let me criticise them, so now I can take my revenge", unlike our sage Saint Ara. Anyway, I would say that Hagarag's net contribution is probably zero. The same goes for the vast majority of us. And I don't hesitate to include myself in that category. Twilight Bark P.S. The more "cerebral" parts of this thread brobably belong in a separate topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 I just remember a good old joke In 1921 Lenin was told that Russia need a good real rod system, he stands up and teals his comrats so join him on building e railroad system. In 1945 Stalin was told that the railroad system that Lenin has bingo making is not finished yet, since we have no wood lags, Stalin stands up and teals everyone to use hymen bodys instead of the wood. In 1978 Brejnev was told that the railroad system is not finished yet – Brejnev teals everyone that the system will be finished after 10 years but since his in the charge of it will be don in 5 years, and to make sure he gets a Medal for it. In1988 Gorbachev vas told that the railroad is not finished yet, gorbachev opens the windows of his office and starts yelling - the railroad is not ready~~~. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>You can yell all you like, you can nag all you like but still empathy words, it’s nothing if you and the sociality are not going to change or teak steps to change. Criticizing - in hagarags case I say it’s more of a Nagging and name calling then criticizing. MOvses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 "P.S. The more "cerebral" parts of this thread brobably belong in a separate topic." yes i know- i just have way to much work. BRB MOvses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 As sad as this is, I have come to the conclusion that the best thing is to let go of the Armenianness. Perhaps Dikran Kouyoumjian, the grandfather of Gregory Peck, Malachi Martin, my prominent relatives and many others had the right idea. If no one will listen to Baliozian, and what we all discuss here will amount to zero, it is better to get lost. Armenians are a lost cause. What a bunch of self-defeating nincompoops. The enemy isw not only the Turkish establishment, the enemy is within our community psyche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hagarag:As sad as this is, I have come to the conclusion that the best thing is to let go of the Armenianness. Perhaps Dikran Kouyoumjian, the grandfather of Gregory Peck, Malachi Martin, my prominent relatives and many others had the right idea. If no one will listen to Baliozian, and what we all discuss here will amount to zero, it is better to get lost. Armenians are a lost cause. What a bunch of self-defeating nincompoops. The enemy isw not only the Turkish establishment, the enemy is within our community psyche.Dear Hagarag, First of all, I don't buy your manifesto. Your attitude towards being an Armenian is that of the "traditional" Armenian bride: "Goulam, payts gertam" You know that there is something good about keeping your Armenian identity, even when you cannot tell what on earth it is. You'll stay. You'll stay in the margins, but you'll stay. Second, listening to Baliozian has nothing to do with reforming anything. If you want to let go of something, let go of him and use your own intellect to figure out things. He introduces more confusion than clarification. Third, sure we are a lost cause and self-defeating nicompoops . Of course I prefer to characterize our attitudes as "hyper-realist" The funny thing is that almost each one us think more or less the same about the rest of the Armenians, except for the one exception, us (as in first person singular), the pearl stuck in the mud. If you think you have something valuable to say (and I am not implying at all that you do not), or write, do it. What use would it be if the Armenian culture was in excellent condition? The real challenge is to say something so clever and profound that the self-defeating nincompoops will listen and change. I think one needs to start with oneself, and then try to work his way to the people that seem like such losers to you. In that journey, one would hope to learn as well as teach. In any case, if some of my words hurt you, please don't take it as a lack of sympathy towards you. In fact, almost all the people on this forum, including the ones that are having fun at your expense, are your anonymous friends. They disagree with almost everything you say, but they are friends. You know why they are friends? Because at the core level, they are also family. Best,Twilight Bark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hagarag:If ... what we all discuss here will amount to zero, it is better to get lostPerhaps. But we can't seem to unglue ourselves from here can we? I, for one, am using this forum to sharpen and clarify my thinking, especially on my cultural identity and its place in the world. I am not in a position to charge ahead and change the world. However, perhaps I can introduce a spark in someone else's mind. Just maybe. And maybe by the time I am in a position of more leverage, I will have honed my thought system so that the resources that I plunge into a "cause" will not be wasted. Just maybe. And that "just maybe" makes it worthwhile. Twilight Bark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 10, 2002 Report Share Posted May 10, 2002 oh, Armenian girls, whatever has happened to you?!?!see, what kind of mess you make?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted May 10, 2002 Report Share Posted May 10, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark:Dear Hagarag, First of all, I don't buy your manifesto. Your attitude towards being an Armenian is that of the "traditional" Armenian bride: "Goulam, payts gertam" You know that there is something good about keeping your Armenian identity, even when you cannot tell what on earth it is. You'll stay. You'll stay in the margins, but you'll stay. Second, listening to Baliozian has nothing to do with reforming anything. If you want to let go of something, let go of him and use your own intellect to figure out things. He introduces more confusion than clarification. Third, sure we are a lost cause and self-defeating nicompoops . Of course I prefer to characterize our attitudes as "hyper-realist" The funny thing is that almost each one us think more or less the same about the rest of the Armenians, except for the one exception, us (as in first person singular), the pearl stuck in the mud. If you think you have something valuable to say (and I am not implying at all that you do not), or write, do it. What use would it be if the Armenian culture was in excellent condition? The real challenge is to say something so clever and profound that the self-defeating nincompoops will listen and change. I think one needs to start with oneself, and then try to work his way to the people that seem like such losers to you. In that journey, one would hope to learn as well as teach. In any case, if some of my words hurt you, please don't take it as a lack of sympathy towards you. In fact, almost all the people on this forum, including the ones that are having fun at your expense, are your anonymous friends. They disagree with almost everything you say, but they are friends. You know why they are friends? Because at the core level, they are also family. Best,Twilight Bark[/QB]Dear TB, First of all thanks for the wishes for the trip. It was a very useful and pleasant one. I think you make several good points. I make your words mine when it comes to hagarag. Reading Baliozian is like reading Baronian. I am not quite sure the intended purpose is the same, and I do sense a more "end of the world prophet" atmosphere in Baliozian. He probably couldn´t find his place among Armenians, as a Balakian did for example. But Ara Baliozian is someone I respect, if not for his message which is a bit repetitive and a bit extreme, but for his implied sense of humour. Now, the self-loathing and even self-hatred is symptomatic. I won´t get into it. Suffices to say that unless it is written with a dose of irony, it becomes quite boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted May 10, 2002 Report Share Posted May 10, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Reading Baliozian is like reading Baronian. I am not quite sure the intended purpose is the same, and I do sense a more "end of the world prophet" atmosphere in Baliozian. He probably couldn´t find his place among Armenians, as a Balakian did for example. But Ara Baliozian is someone I respect, if not for his message which is a bit repetitive and a bit extreme, but for his implied sense of humour. Now, the self-loathing and even self-hatred is symptomatic. I won´t get into it. Suffices to say that unless it is written with a dose of irony, it becomes quite boring.I agree that having respectable social critics with literary talent would indeed be a wonderful blessing for the Armenians. And I wish I could share your respect for Mr. Baliozian. The workings of his mind, and what he tries to pull off in his writings are all too easy to see, and I don't like what I see. You mention irony. He doesn't see the irony when he behaves in exactly the same way as the people he supposedly loathes. That is, the irony is there, but just horribly and apparently unwittingly misplaced. And when I see someone rising to his usual bait of "oh-so-noble" sermons about how the bad guys are bad, and the good guys are good, and the bad guys should become good guys, I have to convince myself once again that the poor reader will probably be alright in the end. I sincerely wish that he were better; but he is not. His calling is at best a career as a second-rate shock-jock columnist. I sincerely wish to be wrong, and wish to believe that we do have a high-caliber intellectual that is energetically trying to illuminate the Armenian masses; but I cannot suspend my disbelief. Anyway, enough about my pet-villain . Welcome back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted May 10, 2002 Report Share Posted May 10, 2002 Don't get me wrong. I do not respect Ara as a writer or thinker, but just as a person who in spite of showing some promise in the past has been reduced to what you said. In his manicheist world there is an implicit but certainly involuntary irony: himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted May 10, 2002 Report Share Posted May 10, 2002 Come one GGGGGGGGuuuuuuuuuyyyyyyzzzzzzz Admit you like Ara, just a little bit(O.K a very little bit ) but he is a talented writer, and we can't deny this, maybe its for him better to increase his "Ironic" skills by reading a little of Voltaire... How many of you, just ONE DAY, after remarking that Ara has new post didnt opened his threat to read what he has just writen ? Be honnest. BTW, Hagarag, I hope you havnt taken what I said as an offense, only the fact that I attacked you proves that I like you(well there is only one person that I attack that I hate, but this is another story). At least I answer you, while I only read Ara like I will listen the Radio and then shut it up when I have enough... its just that the way that wh00t brough up this thing was so funny that just thinking of it I laugh another hour. Still I will try to buy your book as support, when I never have bough any of Ara's work. But Hagarag, the majority of us do not have Saint Araès writing skills, and do not take this as an offense, but your English also dosnt seem to be near Ara's one... so considering that I will read it as a humoristic work, try to be as funny as it is possible, because there is no "Armenian, Armenian criticiser" that we lack of, so you should provide at least something that would worth to buy your book, you should be inspired of Weems... sorry can't stop... its just the way you talked about your book and the way the "durt" ehehe... remembered me how Weems was promessing how his book was great, and still I am trying to have one copy of this work and since there is not way that I can have one without passing from a Turkish organization(this is a non, there is no way I will give my name to them), I have to find other books to read untill I have a copy, and I am sure yours will help me to wait few more months... any dates expected ? [ May 10, 2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Domino ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted May 10, 2002 Report Share Posted May 10, 2002 quote: oh, Armenian girls, whatever has happened to you?!?!see, what kind of mess you make?!?! Its all their faults Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted May 10, 2002 Report Share Posted May 10, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Domino: but he is a talented writer, and we can't deny this,Bah. Perhaps he could have become one, but his apparent level of talent is no better than a mediocre journalist. His level of thinking also appears to be at that level. That is still more than many ordinary people; just not enough to justify all the pomposity. In any case, all this is quite irrelevant. If he had the intellectual and spiritual depth, I would admire him even if he had zero "talent". quote: maybe its for him better to increase his "Ironic" skills by reading a little of Voltaire...He already does more copying than is good for anyone. quote: How many of you, just ONE DAY, after remarking that Ara has new post didnt opened his threat to read what he has just writen ? Be honnest. I raise my hand. I only occasionally glance through his "output". I usually comment on it only as a response to some poor soul that appears to buy his half-baked ideas becase of the borrowed, "enlightened", sugary fluff that surrounds them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 TB, you accused me first of giving to much importance to Ara, but by answering him like this, you just are doing this yourself... you take him to much seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 "maybe its for him better to increase his "Ironic" skills by reading a little of Voltaire..." A mistake I just realised, I ment "satiric" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Domino:TB, you accused me first of giving to much importance to Ara, but by answering him like this, you just are doing this yourself... you take him to much seriously.I am not accusing you of anything. The amount of my "discussion/debate" time I devote to him is a small fraction of my total budget. He is after all a persistent and loud voice, backed up by some sort of a "reputation". A modicum of "attention" is justified. [ May 11, 2002, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted May 27, 2002 Report Share Posted May 27, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Bakersfieldian:My question is.......... What has happened to Armenian girls??? Is this behavior common now??? any other input you might have is welcome.Nothing has happened to Armenian girls. She is not an armenian, but an american slut! Armenian girls do not use the word F and do not use any kinds of swear words, it is a disgrace for a girl!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted May 27, 2002 Report Share Posted May 27, 2002 Artur, What hypocrisy. Before you make comments about our Armenian-American girls clean up your mess in the ROA, from which young women go to UAE and Turkey, etcetera to spread their legs for every obese old man with a gold coin. Armenian men in the ROA who love frequenting prostitutes but want their new wives to be virgins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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