Mr. G. Mamigonian is right: look at the photos.

[Guest]

Hey, Mr. Gr. Mamigonian, members of your family still preserve very dark features (based on your claims of Chinese origin). While members of the Bagratuni (claims Jewish origins) look completely white. Look at these photos:

 

Mamigonians:

http://news.owu.edu/mamik.html

 

Bagratuni:

http://www.ongaku-records.com/SurenBio.html

 

You are right after all. But, we are all still Armenians despite our different origins.

[Guest]

well I can see is that that mamigonian guy, looks very Armenian, and that Bagratuni guy looks more Russian or even Polish.

[Guest]

Okay. I have a difficult one. A friend goes to me I 'm armenian, and they did come from armenian with an ian ending name. But their grandparents say they are "russian decendants". What does that mean? They are from Eastern Armenia as opposed to western? Are not Armenian but really Russian ? AAARGH!

[Guest]

Well, Hakob! How generous of you! Actually I don't look like that guy on the photo, although me and my dad have black colored hair. Like those racists say: "One drop makes you whole." Not only my family, but many Armenians can share similar genetic formation as we all mixed with each other. You'll never know...

[Guest]

I think Armenians are way more mixed than they care to admit. I have noticed a whole slew of Russian looking (blonde, blue eyed, button nosed) Armenians in Montebello. The other day at Dvin Market there was two girls who looked stereotyped Slavic, extremely blonde, almost white hair, etc. who started speaking Armenian like nothing. In my own family I have one aunt who looks Irish, and another who could pass for a Pakistani or Indian(India!). I think the idea that we are pure is b.s. I also have heard of an Ethiopian genetic presence in the Armenian makeup, due to both cultures being Monophysite Christians and thus being in contact for centuries. That might explain these waves I have!

[Guest]

Tell me about it! My hair is wild and kinky too. Especially when I have just washed it.....

That I s one thing I have deff noticed is that Armenians are VERY mixed in the way the look, a bit like Jewish people really. I think anything between Barbie blond and blue eyed (like Gamavor - the Ken doll!) and Indian. Lots of medditereanean shades in the middle. My mum's eyes are very chocolate brown but my dad's eyes are so hazel that when he stood in the sun the almost looked yellow/green! Mine look green in some lights.

So you are right really. I just wanted to confirm.

[phantom22]

Take a good hard look at this Mamikonian from Moscow!!!

 

http://mamikonian.stumbleupon.com/

 

How soon will Beijing become the sister city of Yerevan?

 

 

 

 

Hey, Mr. Gr. Mamigonian, members of your family still preserve very dark features (based on your claims of Chinese origin). While members of the Bagratuni (claims Jewish origins) look completely white. Look at these photos:

 

Mamigonians:

http://news.owu.edu/mamik.html

 

Bagratuni:

http://www.ongaku-records.com/SurenBio.html

 

You are right after all. But, we are all still Armenians despite our different origins.

Edited March 18, 2007 by phantom22

[phantom22]

Now take a good hard look at a Bagratuni.

 

http://www.surenbagratuni.com/gallery.php

 

I have participated in a number of weddings at Jewish temples. Suren would blend in quite well there.

 

Hey, Mr. Gr. Mamigonian, members of your family still preserve very dark features (based on your claims of Chinese origin). While members of the Bagratuni (claims Jewish origins) look completely white. Look at these photos:

 

Mamigonians:

http://news.owu.edu/mamik.html

 

Bagratuni:

http://www.ongaku-records.com/SurenBio.html

 

You are right after all. But, we are all still Armenians despite our different origins.

Edited March 18, 2007 by phantom22

[phantom22]

If you click on the photo, you can get an enlarged version.

 

Take a good hard look at this Mamikonian from Moscow!!!

 

http://mamikonian.stumbleupon.com/

 

How soon will Beijing become the sister city of Yerevan?

 

[Johannes]

Did you think that this Mamik did not mixtured during 1700 year.

How much silly one can be to think that this Mamikonean (if he is realy decendant of thath dynasty) did not changed during 1700 year.

1700 year by your thesis. In my my opinion they are locals from the begining.

[phantom22]

It is quite possible that, until 1915, the Mamikonians remained in the vicinity of Mush, in Taron province. Therefore Armenians in that region would be marrying other Armenians who also were partially decended from the Chinese elite. The Persian king did not send only the two noble Chinese brother there but also a large entourage of their educated followers. These people intermarried with the local Armenians.

 

Did you think that this Mamik did not mixtured during 1700 year.

How much silly one can be to think that this Mamikonean (if he is realy decendant of thath dynasty) did not changed during 1700 year.

1700 year by your thesis. In my my opinion they are locals from the begining.

 

[Armenak]

I have participated in a number of weddings at Jewish temples. Suren would blend in quite well there.

So would Nell Carter and Sammy Davis Jr. What's your point?

[phantom22]

Nell Carter and Sammy Davis, Jr. as well as, Liz Taylor are all converts to Judaism. Many European Jews are products of intermarriages. Many Jews are descended from Khazars.

 

With Armenians it is another matter. In our case it was the Jews who assimilated. There are archaelogical reports from the 19th century (before Republic of Turkey) that refer to Armenian churches with the "Star of David" carved in the stone walls. What do you think that Thaddeus and Bartholomew were? Armenians?

 

So would Nell Carter and Sammy Davis Jr. What's your point?

 

[Armenak]

Nell Carter and Sammy Davis, Jr. as well as, Liz Taylor are all converts to Judaism. Many European Jews are products of intermarriages. Many Jews are descended from Khazars.

But aren't they Semitic?

[Johannes]

''Star of David'' is a desighn carved also on mosques and Armenian churches.

Did this simbol begin with David? Or it is also stolen from the Arameans.

Why is your brain centered on jews and chinies. Are not there other peoples arround?

Khazars were turkik tribes north of caspian sea.

They converted to judaism.

Most of european origin jews were from those Khazars.

Look at wolfowitz (kurtoghlu).

 

 

[phantom22]

When I state that we Armenians have assimilated French and German blood from the time of the Crusades, I get little disagreement here. When I state that Mongol warriors impregnated Armenian women, I get only a little disagreement. When I state that Armenian nobles and rulers willfully married Mongol women, I get more disagreement. When I bring up that Tigran Medz shipped 10,000 Jews to Tigranakert and more Jews to Van, and that a majority of these Jews assimilated into the Armenian genepool, I get vehement disagreement. Ditto the story of the Jews from the region of the ROA.

 

It was not only Khorenatsi, but numerous members of our early historians who discussed the emigration of the two Chinese royal brothers from the Han dynasty and their entourage. Each of these histories discuss the story from a different angle, some clearly stating that they came from a land northeast of the Indian subcontinent. This also gets vehement diagreement. Methinks that there are portions of our earlier history that are taboo and other parts that are not so taboo. That is why I pound upon this. Just like I pound upon what our nobles did to the Paulicians and the Tondrakians.

 

 

''Star of David'' is a desighn carved also on mosques and Armenian churches.

Did this simbol begin with David? Or it is also stolen from the Arameans.

Why is your brain centered on jews and chinies. Are not there other peoples arround?

Khazars were turkik tribes north of caspian sea.

They converted to judaism.

Most of european origin jews were from those Khazars.

Look at wolfowitz (kurtoghlu).

Edited March 19, 2007 by phantom22

[Johannes]

I think You are in mistake. Because Tigranakert after 10 years of its building crashed.

Look at what happened to historical Armenia. Armenian people did not salvage from 10 centuries massacres and still you are asking about jewish colonies in Armenia.

I ask you!!! where is the armenia that Tigran & Ataxes ruled? Where is Armenia?

She is gone with its population. but you are still looking for yahoudies.

And about Mamikoneans the problem with you is your ignorance of the language of Mamikoneans which is the Armenian language. We wrote several times that Jenk was in north Armenia. Khorenatsi never mentioned the word China or chinastan, but jenk.

 

 

 

[phantom22]

You only mention Khorenatsi, what about the other Armenian historians? The translation of the word is immaterial as the area's location and other aspects are clearly described.

 

I think You are in mistake. Because Tigranakert after 10 years of its building crashed.

Look at what happened to historical Armenia. Armenian people did not salvage from 10 centuries massacres and still you are asking about jewish colonies in Armenia.

I ask you!!! where is the armenia that Tigran & Ataxes ruled? Where is Armenia?

She is gone with its population. but you are still looking for yahoudies.

And about Mamikoneans the problem with you is your ignorance of the language of Mamikoneans which is the Armenian language. We wrote several times that Jenk was in north Armenia. Khorenatsi never mentioned the word China or chinastan, but jenk.

 

[Johannes]

By the way dear ghost, i know many dalvoriktsies (mountainous region in Sasun) who are more blond than the irish & scandinavians.

But this kind of discussion is useless and silly and meaningless

[Johannes]

You only mention Khorenatsi, what about the other Armenian historians? The translation of the word is immaterial as the area's location and other aspects are clearly described

 

Khorenatsi is the source of all these information. He is the father of historians ''Patmahayr''

 

 

[Zartonk]

Phantom,

 

Tell me if I'm wrong.

 

Your point is to remind the pompous Armenians that like every other human population, they have a mixed gene pool. You keep on and on (and on and on AND ON) about the foreign strain to show how hypocritical and selective they are about the facts and realities of their past. You want Armenians to recognize their history for what it is. They are neither pure or perfect.

 

Please feel free to say I'm wrong.

 

If that IS your aim, I get it. And quite truthfully, thanks. It's a contribution.

 

 

No one's piss is pure. Yes we might have married Mongols. Yes Tigran went down to Judea and came back with a party. Yes there were some Chinese. What if we do share A DROP of genetic mutuality? Understood.

 

But to go as far as calling them a sister nation? I have not seen or heard one Chinese person claim to have a population of billion+ 7 mill. Or is Armenian culture a hybrid of Chinese Civilization and Hebrew heritage?

What does science say? Genetics?

 

And finally to mime -ad nauseam- what other have already said, WHAT IS THE GAIN AT THE END OF THE DAY?

Edited March 19, 2007 by Zartonk

[Armenak]

Amen Zartonk.

[phantom22]

You will NEVER hear a Brit claim that there is no Roman or Spanish blood in their genepool. Hungarians accept the fact of the Hun blood in their genepool. Poles admit that there is Armenian blood in their genepool. Even Turks admit that they are primarily Islamized Armenians and Greeks.

 

There is not on nation on earth that is gentically "pure" if that word even has any meaning. Only certain Armenian danz-kloochs in this Forum claim this. We are primarily the indigenous Urartuans of the Armenian plateau, but we are not "pure." In this sense we are no different than any other nation on Earth.

 

This irks me just like some Armenians claiming that we have no crime in our community, no murders, no sexual perversion, that we are as pure as the driven snow.

 

The gain at the end of the day is to build bridges. The Anatolian Turks have little in common genetically with the Central Asian Turks yet claim them as their brothers. We should develop these bridges with the Chinese, who have been massacred by the Mongols and Turks throughout antiquity and with the Jews who have a similar history of persecution as we have had.

 

 

Phantom,

 

Tell me if I'm wrong.

 

Your point is to remind the pompous Armenians that like every other human population, they have a mixed gene pool. You keep on and on (and on and on AND ON) about the foreign strain to show how hypocritical and selective they are about the facts and realities of their past. You want Armenians to recognize their history for what it is. They are neither pure or perfect.

 

Please feel free to say I'm wrong.

 

If that IS your aim, I get it. And quite truthfully, thanks. It's a contribution.

No one's piss is pure. Yes we might have married Mongols. Yes Tigran went down to Judea and came back with a party. Yes there were some Chinese. What if we do share A DROP of genetic mutuality? Understood.

 

But to go as far as calling them a sister nation? I have not seen or heard one Chinese person claim to have a population of billion+ 7 mill. Or is Armenian culture a hybrid of Chinese Civilization and Hebrew heritage?

What does science say? Genetics?

 

And finally to mime -ad nauseam- what other have already said, WHAT IS THE GAIN AT THE END OF THE DAY?

Edited March 19, 2007 by phantom22

[Zartonk]

There is not on nation on earth that is gentically "pure" if that word even has any meaning. Only certain Armenian danz-kloochs in this Forum claim this. We are primarily the indigenous Urartuans of the Armenian plateau, but we are not "pure." In this sense we are no different than any other nation on Earth.

 

Precisely what I stated The idea of purity is absurd at best.

 

 

You will NEVER hear a Brit claim that there is no Roman or Spanish blood in their genepool. Hungarians accept the fact of the Hun blood in their genepool. Poles admit that there is Armenian blood in their genepool. Even Turks admit that they are primarily Islamized Armenians and Greeks.

 

The Anatolian Turks have little in common genetically with the Central Asian Turks yet claim them as their brothers. We should develop these bridges with the Chinese, who have been massacred by the Mongols and Turks throughout antiquity and with the Jews who have a similar history of persecution as we have had.

 

Not so fast. Despite the fact that the main bulk of the Turkish genealogical make-up is Anatolian, they are still the products of a Central Asian intrusion. Armenians, on the other hand, cannot claim such literal "brotherhood" (a disputable term and concept) with the Chinese. The Mongol connection as the common enemy, though significant, is not enough to justify any true bonds. Even if the Mamikonian link is indeed valid (I need to study the patmatak texts furthr before concluding anything) on the final scale of history, it is a minuscule highlight. I really am not against Sino-Armenian reations. They are a marvelous civilization. For that matter, I am not against any advantageous diplomatic relationship But really, how relevant are the problems of the Armenians for China? We can't make such leaps and link ourselves to people. It could falsely signal a sense of inferiority. These are entire cultures we are discussing.

 

If it is down to honestly claiming whatever ethnic make up you posses, if that's the knot on the sail, you can mark me as a first if you like:

 

I am Armenian. It is ABSOLUTELY PLAUSIBLE that I carry the genes of Asians, Persians, Arabs, Jews, blacks,

Mongols, Turks, Romans, the French,...

 

etc etc etc.

 

Better?

 

This is all about physical ethnicity, which is, all in all, a very, very silly matter.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Zartonk

[phantom22]

Zartonk,

 

It is stated in the historical sources that the two chinese brothers did not come alone, but came with a large entourage and were finally settled in Taron province. This signifies more than one family.

 

Much of Armenian history before Christianity is lost.

 

 

 

 

Even if the Mamikonian link is indeed valid (I need to study the patmatak texts furthr before concluding anything) on the final scale of history, it is a minuscule highlight. I really am not against Sino-Armenian reations. They are a marvelous civilization. For that matter, I am not against any advantageous diplomatic relationship But really, how relevant are the problems of the Armenians for China? We can't make such leaps and link ourselves to people. It could falsely signal a sense of inferiority. These are entire cultures we are discussing.