CAN WE TALK?

[Arpa]

CAN WE TALK?

 

By chance I just stumbled on this thread, and I was blown away.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1613&st=0

 

Can we talk? I mean, can we talk?

This thread was under the topic of Language.

Btw. Shirag never told us where he had taken the article from.

I was the first to ask Shirag about the source, next Ali reinforced my point. In fact Ali’s post was the most scientific. Seems like I had stopped reading further when it turned upside down. I just stumbled on the topic again and WOW!!!

11 pages 217 posts , but see what the debate turned to, none of which had to do with the subject at hand. After the first handful of posts, after page #1 it somehow turned to the subject of the Big G and armeno-armeno and armeno-furkish war and ,personal attacks. Note also who steered the subject totally off topic. Yep! You guessed it. Our own “village idiot” Hagarag, and it never went back to the original subject.

 

CAN WE TALK? CAN WE STICK TO THE MAIN TOPIC?

 

No one again went back to the main topic of Language after post #3.

I have not seen Shirag of late to once again ask him about the source and the author of his original post., to perhaps understand the purpose and the agenda of it. Both me and Ali asked him the same question, and asked him to reveal his source to no avail. Had he composed it all by himself? Had he compiled all those words? Is he the author?

You will see that even Ali, a turk chauvinist (?) questioned the academic validity of the presumptions.

 

It is sad to see how this Forum has deteriorated and turned into an idle chit-chat.

 

**Logos means word, from where the word "logic" derives.

In the beginning was the λόγος ... (John 1:1)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

---

Սկզբից էր Բանը, և Բանը Աստծու մօտ էր, և Բանը Աստուած էր։

---

Ի սկզբանէ էր բանն. եւ բանն էր առ Աստուած. եւ Աստուած էր բանն։

The Armenian “word” for logical is բանաւոր/banavor .

Edited July 11, 2011 by Arpa

[Anoushik]

I know, Arpa, I share your sentiments. But what can we do?

[Anpatkar]

Parev tzez.

Tzer bahanchadz aghpyure kda. Husam oktagar ella.

Arayjm

 

www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Lex/Kont.html

[Anpatkar]

Valentyn Stetsyuk

 

Traces of Linguistic Contacts in Türkic and Indo-European Vocabularies

 

Abbreviations

 

 

Arm - Armenian

Bolg – Bulgarian

Balk - Balkar

Chuv - Chuvash

Dt - Dutch

Eng - English

Gag. - Gagauz

Germ - German

Gil - Gilan

Got - Gothic

Gr - Greek

IE - Indoeuropean

Karach - Karachay

Kaz - Kazakh

Kyrg - Kyrghyz

Lat - Latin

Lit – Lithuanian

Norw – Norwegian

OE - Old English

OG- Old German

O.H.G. – Old High German

OI - Old Indian

OIcl - Old Icelandic

OT - Old Türkic

Pers – Persian

Rom – Romanian

Rus - Russian

Sl - Old-Slavic

Sw- Swedish

Ukr – Ukrainian

Uzb – Uzbek

Tat - Tatarian

Toch - Tocharian

Tur – Turkish

Türkm- Türkmen

Yak – Yakut

 

 

 

1. Common Nostratic heritage in vocabularies of Türkic and Indoeuropean

 

Some roots in Türkic and Indoeuropean languages can be attributed to the common Nostratic heritage since ancient speakers these languages resided in the adjacent areas in the region between the rivers Kura and Araks in S.Caucasus. Enough good examples of the most convincing lexical parallels coming from that time can be such:

IE *aulos “gulli, lowlands, settlement” (Lat alvus, GrSl ulica “street” ) - common Türkic aul “village”.

IE *bheleg “to shine”, “to burn” (Lat fulgeo, Gr , Lit blyk(ti, Sl blikati, bleskъ etc.) - Tur balkır “shine”, Tat balku “light” etc. Maybe common Türkic belgi “sign” belongs here too.

IE *bher “to bring”, “to take” (Lat fero, Gr , Sl bürati, etc.) - common Türkic be:r “to give” (Türkm bermek, Tur vermek, Karach , Balk berirge etc).

IE *bheug “to bend” (Got biugan, OE bugan, OI bhujati, Sl bъgati) – common Türkic bük- “to bend” (Türkm, Tur bükmek, Tat bögü, Karach, Balk bügerge etc.)

IE *bhor “to turn” (Lat forare, OE borian, Gr ) - common Türkic bur- (Türkm, Tur burmak, Tat boru, Uzb buramoq “to turn” a.o.)

IE *dek “right” (Lat dexter, Gr , Sl desnъ a.o.) - common Türkic dik/dek “right”, “straight” (Türkm dikan “straight”, Tur dik “vertical”, Chuv tikěs, Uzb tekis “straight” etc.)

IE *der "to split, skin" (Gr  “skin, pelt”, "to skin", Goth gatairan, Slav dirati "to tear" etc - common Türkic , everywhere deri “skin, hide, pelt”.

IE *dheub “deep” (Germ tief, Gr  a.o.) – common Türkic düjp (Türkm düjp, Karach, Balk tüb, Tat tüp “bottom”.

IE *ghabh “to take, to seize” (Lat habeo, Got giban, Sl gabati, Lit gabenti, a.o.) - Türkm gapmak, Yak xap “to catch”, Tur kapmak “to seize”, Tat kabu ”to take” etc.

IE *gieu “to chew” (OE ceowan, Germ kauen, Sl (ьvati, Pers j’ävidän, Gil j’av(st(n a.o.) - Tur gevelemek, Uzb kav(amoq, Karach, Balk küü(enirge “to chew” etc.

IE *k’es “to cut” (Lat castrare, Gr , Sl kosa, kositi, Lit gabenti, a.o.) - common Türkic kes- “to cut” (Türkm, Tur kesmek, Karach, Balk keserge, Kaz kesu etc).

IE *kai-ur-t “cave”, “pit” (Lat cavea, Gr , OI kevata a.o.) - Türkm govak “cave”, Tur kovuk “hollow”, “hole”, Chuv xăvăl “hollow” a.o.

IE *ker “rime” (Arm sa(n, Sl sernú, Lit (e(k(nas, OIsl hjarn a.o.) - common Türkic qyraw “rime” (Türkm gyrav, Kaz, Karach, Balk qyrau, Kyrg kyroo etc.)

IE *kers “dark” (Gr , Sl (ьrnъ, OI kŕsna a.o.) - common Türkic qara- “black” (Tur, Gag., Tat kara, Karach, Balk, Kaz qara etc.)

IE *kes “to scratch” (Gr , Sl (esati, Lit kasyti etc). - Türkm gašamak, Tur kaşîmak, Karach, Balk qašyrğa “to scratch” etc.

IE *krep- “body” (Lat corpus, Gr , OG * hrefa-, etc). - common Türkic qursak (Karach, Balk, Uzb qursaq, Tur gurşag, Gag. gursak, Tat korsak, etc.) “body, belly”.

IE *skel “to cut, to split” (Gr , Got skilja, Lit skelti a.o.) - Türkm (almak, Karach, Balk (alyrğa “to mow, to cut”, Tat čalgy , Kaz (algy ”to scythe” etc.

IE *skep/kep “to beat, to split” (Gr , Lat scapula, Lit kapoti a.o.) - Tur (apa “mattok”, Chuv (ap “to beat”, Tat čabu “to mow, to cut” a.o.)

IE *ster “pus” (Lat stercus, Sl stьrvь, Norw stor a.o.) - Tur (irkef “dirt, pus”, Gag. čürük “pus”, Karach, Balk (irirge “to rot” a.o.)

IE *tek “to weave”, “to spin” (Lat texere, Gr , Sl tъkati, Arm t’ek’em a.o.) - common Türkic doqa- "to weave" (Tur dokumak, Türkm dokamak, Kaz toqu and similar.)

IE *ual “strong” (Lat valeo, Got waldan, Sl vlastь, etc.) - Türkm, Kaz uly, Tur, Gag. ulu, Karach, Balk oly “great” a.o.

IE *uegu- (Pokorny – perhaps false) or *uksōn (Kluge) “bull, ox” (OI uksā, Got auhsa, Germ Ochse, Toch okso, etc.) – Tur, Türkm, Gag, Karach, Balk öküz, Kaz ögiz, Chuv văkăr – „bull” etc.

IE *uel “to turn” (Lat volvo, Gr , Sl val- etc) - Tat ejlenderu , Uzb ajlantirmoq “to turn”, Karach, Balk ajlanyu “rotation”.

 

2. Common elements in the Turkic, Armenian, Greek, and Latin languages

 

The contacts between the ancient Türkic and Indo-European ethnoi continued after migration of both ethnic groups from the S.Caucasus to Eastern Europe.

Proto-Armenians resided on the left banks of the river Dniepr in the closest vicinity with Türks. Accordingly, the most words of the Türkic origin were found specifically in the Armenian language. Some part of the Türkic words through the Armenian language even reached the ancient Greeks. The Türkisms in the Armenian, to which sometimes can be found coincidences in Greek, are shown below:

 

Arm a(tiur “low ground, moist meadow, swamp” - Tur, Tat, Karach, Balk alt “low” a.o. Sir Gerard Clauson writes about Türkic word: “There is grave doubt whether this is really an independet ancient word. If it was it means ‘the bothom, or lower surface (of something)’. Armenian can mean properly speaking “the bottom”.

Arm a(u “canal” - common Türkic aryk (aryğ) “canal”.

Arm acux “coal” - common Türkic očak/ očok “heart, fire-place” (Chuv vučax, Tur ocak a.o.), moreover Türkm čog, Tur şövg, Kaz šok, Uzb čůg “red-hot coal” a.o.

Arm alap’-em “plunder” - Türkic alp “tough, resistant, hard to overcome”, can be also “hero, warrior” (Chuv ulăp “giant, titan”, OT, Tur alp, Tat alyp a.o. “hero”).

Arm alik’ “wave”, “billow”, Gr alox “furrow” - Türkic oluq “gutter” (Tur oluk “trough”, Chuv valak - “trough”, Karach, Balk uuaq “wavy”).

Arm anta( “forest” - Gag. andyz “grove, bushes”, Tur and(z “kind of weed”. Similar words are present in other Türkic languages but all they have a meaning of severel plants. Only Armeinan and Gagauz words have the meaning of the forest.

Arm atkhi “foot” – common Türkic ajaq/adaq “foot”.

Arm c(uk “muzzle, mug, snout”, Gr gorgos “terribble, fearful” - Türkic qorq- “to fear, to be afraid” (Türkm gorky “fear, fright”, Tur korku “fear, fright”, Gag. korku “fear, fright” a.o).

Arm (up “stick” - extended Türkic čybyk “switch”. Sir Gerard Clauson pointed: “perhaps the basic word of which čybyk was a diminutive form of noun (*čyp).

Arm garš-i-m “to have an aversion” - Türkm garšy, Gag. karšy, Tur karşi, Chuv xirěs “opposed, opposite, the opposite”.

Arm he(g “lazy, idle” - common Türkic jalta/jalka “lazy, idle” ( Karach, Balk jalk, Chuv julxav, Tat jalkau, Kaz žalkau a.o.)

Arm kamar “vault”, Gr  “vault room”, Lat camurus “curved, bent”, camerare “to vault” – Tur kubur “case, pipe”, Uzb dial. qumur , Kaz quvyr “chimney”. Perhaps these Türkic words are derivative from Türkic köpür “bridge” (see below)..

Arm kamurj’ “bridge”, Gr “dam, bridge” - common Türkic köpür “bridge” (Chuv kěper, Karach, Balk köpür, Tat küper a.o.). Sir Gerard Clauson supposed the origin of Türkic word from the root köp- “to swell, foam, boil over”. But Armenian, Greek, and other IE words (Lat caper, Celtic caer, gabor a.o. “he-goat”) can give an evidence about Indo-European origin of the word. Türks borrowed the word from Indo-Europeans with meaning “he-goat” but became it back with new meaning “bridge”. Some later IE words with meaning near to „bridge“ (Dutch keper, Germ Käpfer a.o.) originated from Lat caper.

Arm sta-na-m “to buy” - Chuv sut “to sell”, Tur satın “buying”, Balk, Karach satyb “to buy” a.o.

Arm (e( “slant, curved”, Gr  “curved” – Türkic čal- as Sir Gerard Clauson think “to cknock down, to throw to the ground” (Chuv čalaš “slant”, Tat čulak, Tur (al(k “curved”).

Arm tal, Gr Lat glos „the daughter-in-law, sister-in-law“ – Türkic gelin „the daughter-in-law, sister-in-law“.

Arm tarap’ “downpour, gush” - Chuv tap(r “watering place”.

Arm teli “place” - Chuv t(l “place”.

Arm tuk “saliva” - Türkm tüjkülik, Karach, Balk tükürük “saliva”, Gag. tükürmää “spit” a.o.

Arm thošel “to fly” – common Türk düš- “to fall”.

 

Not all Türkic loan-words survived in the Armenian, and a part of them have not been found yet, that is why a small group of Türkic roots exist only in Greek. There is no doubt that matches to a part of them can be found in the Armenian language in some time. A separate group among the Türkic -Greek lexical coincidences is represented by the Greek-Chuvashian parallels which descended from the more late time as a part of Greek ethnos stayed in Pontic steppes after the great bulk of Old Greeks went for Balkan Peninsula. The ancient Bulgars, the ancestors of Chuvashians, stayed on this territory for a long time too and adopted from the Greek some words, but the Armenian coincidences are not obligatory for them. They also are included in this list.

 

Gr Lat ager, Germ Acker “field” – common Turkic ek- (Chuv ak, akăr) “to sow”. The origin of Greek and Latin words is dark.

Gr  “to ask” - Chuv vitěn “to entreat”, Tur ötünmek “to ask, to solicit”, OT ajit- “to ask, to question” etc. Frisk didn't give sure etymology of the Greek word.

Gr , Lat acacia “acacia” – common Türkic agač (yğa:č) “tree”. Frisk considers the Greek word as "Fremdwort".

Gr XE "Мова:грецька" , Lat XE "Мова:латинська" araneus “spider” - Chuv XE "Мова:чуваська" erešmen, Gag XE "Мова:гагаузька" örümžäk, Az hörüm(êk “spider”. Frisk didn't give sure etymology of the Greek word.

XE "Мова:грецька" Gr  "smell, odour" – Turk aram/erem (Chuv erĕm ) "wormwood". See also Chuv armuti.

Gr  “man, male” - Chuv ar(yn “man”. Frisk connected the Greek word with OInd árṣati "to flow". Obviously, the Chuvash word is borrowed from Greek.

Gr  “to bind, hang up” - Chuv urtăn “to hang up”, Tur, Tat, Kaz art- etc “to hang on”. Frisk considered Greek word as a derivate from Gr  what is doubtful. This is loan-word from Turkic.

Gr  “to tie, to bind” - common Türkic düv- “knot”, Türkm düvün, Chuv těvě. Frisk connected the Greek word with OInd ditá- "bound".

Gr  “sieve” - Chuv atma “fishnet”. Frisk didn't give sure etymology of the Greek word but it is a derivate out of  "to sift". Obviously, Chuvash word is borrowed from Old Greek.

Gr  “remedy” - common Türkic em- “remedy”, Türkm, Gag., Tur em.

Gr  “wax, honeycombs” - Chuv karas “honeycombs”. The root is IE. The source of the loan in Chuvashian is unknown.

Gr Lat lacus, OIr loch a.o. “pool, lake, pit”, - Chuv lak(m “pit”.

Gr  “mattock” – Crim-Tat ülüskär, Kaz lesker “mattock” (M. Vasmer). Frisk wrote about the Greek word: "Nicht sicher erklärt" (Not sure explained).

Gr  “bolt, bar” – Tut, Gag mandal “bolt, bar”.

Gr  “tower”, Lat burgus “castle, tower” Germanic *burg (German Burg “castle) - Chuv purak “bast, bast-basket (cylindrical)”, Karach buruu “fence”. Frisk supposed the Greek word is borrowed from some Germanic language.

Gr  “wheat”, Lit pūraĩ "winter wheat" a.o. IE - Chuv pări “spelt, the kind of wheat”. The root is IE. The source of the loan in Chuvashian is unknown.

Gr  “sack”, Lat saccus “sack”, - Chuv sak “weir-basket, coop”, Ukr, Rus sak “fishing-tackle in the form of sack” and other similar Slavic and Germanic words.

гр.  “sea” – Turkiq talaj, talaš (Chuv talaj) “sea”.

Gr  “papyrus chart”, Lat carta “paper, letter” - Chuv h(rta “patch”. Frisk noted the Greek word as "unerklärt" (unclear).

Gr “bile, gall” - Chuv xăla “light-yellow” . The root is IE. The source of the loan in Chuvashian is unknown.

Gr  “kraal”, Lat hortus “garden”, OG gardon “garden” - Cuv karta “fence”.

 

Since the 3-d millenium B.C. a part of ancient Türks, known as creator of the fighting axes and cord ceramics culture, migrated to the right banks of the river Dnieper and farther on to the Central Europe. We do not know how many and which of the Türkic tribes moved through the Dniepr. It is though known that people of the fighting axes were assimilated among the Indoeuropean and Proto-Indoeuropean aborigines. Only one Türkic tribe, the tribe of the ancient Bulgars, retained its ethnic identity. The first people whom the Bulgars met on the right bank of the Dniepr were the creator of Trypilla (Tripolie in Russian) culture. Some words of their language could remain in the language of Chuvashes who are the descendants of Bulgars. Moreover, in that period the ancient Bulgars had language contacts with the ancient Hittites, Italics and Illirians. The shown below Turkisms in Latin came from that time. Naturally, most frequent of all in the list are the Chuvashian words .

Lat abbas “abbot” - Chuv. ap(s “priest”.

Lat. alga “alga, seaweed” - Chuv. y(lma “ooze”. Kornilov gives in concordance jylxa. I do not found such word.

Lat amicus “friend” - Chuv. ami “friend, brother”.

Lat arca “box” - Chuv ar(a “chest”.

Lat artemisia “wormwood” - Chuv armuti “wormwood”. Germ Wermut “wormwood” too.

Lat cama “bed” - Chuv kh(ma “board”.

Lat. casa “house” – Chuv. kas( “street”.

Lat cera “evening” - Chuv. çer “night”.

Lat cicuta “toxic plant” - Chuv kiken “toxic plant”.

Lat cito “fast, quick” - Chuv xytă “fast, quick”, Karach, Balk qaty “fast, rapid”.

Lat Cocles namely “wry, one-eyed” - Chuv. kuklek “wry”;

Lat codex “stump, trunk” - Tur, Gag. kütük “stump, trunk”.

Lat cupa “tub” – Tur, Turk kova, Chag qopa etc “tub”.

Lat cura “care” - Chuv khural “protection”.

Lat cursarius “pirate” - Chuv xarsăr “bold, courageous”, Karach., Balk oğursuz “wicked, vicious”, Tur hırsîz “thief” a.o.

Lat delirium “delirium” – Chuv tilěr, Tat tile “madman”;

Lat. fàbula “rumour” – Chuv. pavra “to chatter, to talk”;

Lat * falterna (Aristolochia) - Chuv věltěren “nettle” (Urtica Gen) - Latin word was restored by W. Meyer-Lübke from Fr fauterne and Old Prov fauterna with the remark “Woher?” (Where from?). One can suppose from Old Chuvashian (Bulgarian).

Lat farnus “ash tree” - Chuv v(rene “maple”.

Lat faux “throat” - Gag. buaz Kyrg buvaz, Tur, Kaz, Karach, Balk boğaz a.o. “throat”.

Lat imber “downpour, gush” - Türkm jagmyr, Chuv çumăr, Tat jaŋğır, Uzb jomğyr, Tur yağmur “rain”.

Lat ius, iuris 1. “low, justice” - Chuv jărăs “sraight”, Tur yasa “low, regulations”, Karach džoruq “low” a.o.

Lat ius, iuris 2. “soup” - Chuv jaška - “soup”, juškăň “slime”.

Lat lama “swamp” - Chuv l(m “moisture”.

Lat laurus “laurel” (Rom laur “thorn-apple”) - Chuv l(b(r “thistle”.

Lat mactare, macto “to glorify”, “to sacrifice” - common Türkic (Türkm magtamak, Chuv muxta Karach, Balk maxtarğa, Uzb maqtamoq “praise”, Yak maxtan “thank” etc).

Lat mel “honey” – Türkic ba:l “honey” is presented in Gagauz, Turkish, Kazakh, Uzbek, Kyrgyz and other languages. Sir Gerard Clauson writes: “It is generally agreed that (this word – V.S.) is a very loan-word from some Indo-European language, dating from a period when m was so inacceptable as an initial that it was replaced by b… The closest IE parallel is Latin mel; the Sanskrit form is madhu”. Sanskrit form belongs to the other IE root *medhu (s. Pokorny). Greek  “honey” is more suited and there are similar words in Germanic, Celtic and Armeinian languages. In this case, it is not easy to determine the origin of this root.

Lat ordo “row”, “order”, “army”, “detachment” - common Türkic (Türkm, Kaz orda, Chuv urta Tur ordu etc “army”).

Lat pasta “pasta” – Karach, Balk basta “porridge, gruel”

Lat pudis “louse” - common Türkic bit “louse” (Chuv pyjta, rest bit/pit).

Lat pūris “pus” - чув. pür “pus”.

Lat quattuar “four” - Chuv t(vatt( “four” (the other Turkic tört /dört “four”).

Lat Roma - Chuv uram, Karach, Balk oram “street”.

Lat saliva “saliva” - common Türkic (Chuv s(leke, Türkm selki, Tat silegej etc “saliva”).

Lat sarda, sardina “kind of fish” - Chuv ((rtan “pike (fish)”.

Lat scopula “broom” - Chuv (ăpăr “broom”.

Lat sollicitare “shake” - common Türkic (Chuv sille, Türkm selkildemek, Tur silkmek etc “shake”).

Lat taberna “public-house” - ChuvXE "Ěîâŕ:÷óâŕńüęŕ" t(var "salt", Ukr, Rus tovar “goods” and “cattle”, Arm tavar “sheep”, “flock”, Kum XE "Ěîâŕ:ęóěčęńüęŕ"tuuar “flock”, TurXE "Ěîâŕ:ňóđĺöüęŕ" tavar “property”, “cattle”, Balk, Cr-Tat tu’ar “cattle” etc. The salt was the main export product for Old Bulgarians therefore it became sense “goods” (Stetsyuk Valentyn, 1998, 57). Many Iranian languages have the words XE "Ěîâŕ:łđŕíńüęŕ"tabar-teber-tevir “axe”, but Finno-Ugrian words of this root have sense “textile” (SaamXE "Ěîâŕ:ńŕŕěńüęŕ" tavjar, MarXE "Ěîâŕ:ěŕđłéńüęŕ" tuvyr, ChantXE "Ěîâŕ:őŕíňčéńüęŕ" tŕgar). All these things are objects of barter and trade, that is to say goods. Latin word *taber of unknown sense is vanished, but the derivate of it taberna stayed which origin is usually deduced from trabs “beam” what is unconvincing.

Lat (Sabinian) teba “hill” - common Türkic (Chuv tüpe, Tur tepe, Kaz töbe etc “moutain, top”).

Lat torta “round brad” - Chuv tărta “to twine, to nest”.

Lat torus “elevation” - Chuv tără “top”. Compare with Eng tor “stony top”.

Lat usus “use” - Chuv usă “use”. Eng use belongs here too or it is a Latin loan word?

Lat vacca “cow” - Chuv v(k(r “bull”.

Lat virga “twig, rod” without conformities in other IE languages – Xak, Uyg berge “whip”. Sir Gerard Clauson writes: “berge – a whip an old word ending in –ge/ It is suggested.., that it is a loan-word from Latin virga ‘a rod, a stock’ obtained through Middle Persian but there does not seen to be any tace of the word in Persian, and the theory is importable.”

Lat vulgus “folk”, “herd”, “crowd”, Lat vulgaris “habitual, customary” - Chuv pulkkă “herd”, “flight, flock”, Bulgar - the old name one of the Türkic tribes, ancestors of Chuvashes. Hirher Germ Volk, Eng folk, Celtic ethnonym Volcae. This word has Indoeuropean origin and was loaned by Bulgars from the Germanic and came to Italics through Bulgars. Otherwise the Latin word might to have the form pulkus.

 

References

Clauson Gerard, Sir (1972). An Etymological Dictionary of Pre-Thirteenth-Century Turkish. Oxford.

Frisk H. (1970). Griechisches etymologisches Wörterbuch. Heidelberg.

Hübschman Heinrich ( 1972). Armenische Grammatik. Erster Teil. Etymologie. Hidelsheim – New York.

Kluge Friedrich (1989). Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache. Berlin - New York.

Meyer-Lübke W. (1992). Romanisches etymologisches Wörterbuch. Heidelberg.

Pokorny J. (1949-1959). Indogermanisches etymologisches Wörterbuch. Bern.

Vasmer Max (1950-1958). Russisches etymologisches Wörterbuch. Heidelberg.

Walde A. (1965). Lateinisches etymologisches Wörterbuch. Heidelberg.

[Arpa]

Valentyn Stetsyuk-Traces of Linguistic Contacts in Türkic and Indo-European Vocabularies.....

Thank you Anpatkar.

Now that we know the source of the article it makes sense, NOT!!!

Sorry!! I don’t know how to write more concisely without getting the main message across.

Who invented “nostratics?

Nostradamus?

It is at best a pseudo-science, as we see below it has so many followers , but even more skeptics. We also see that of all the people the Soviet pseudo-linguists readily subscribed to it. Was there a socio-political agenda behind it?

Btw. My 1968 edition of the Britannica, just as the Armenian Encyclopedia totally ignore it.

Yes, we know that there are only so many vowels and consonants in many languages all the way from Afghanistan to Zulustan, The reason why so many words look and sound the same in many languages, even if they may have totally different meanings. Case in point. When some of us insist that the Basque and their language is of Armenian origin simply because some of their words look and sound like some Armenian words. We must be one of the very few, if not the only to have symbols for every sound of the Alphabet.

Where is HagopN?

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Just to remind us, see what Ali the turk said about the subject in that thread. Unlike some of us (below the belt), Ali spoke out of the above the neck aperture.

dear shirag,

very interesting posting but

1) what are your sources? when i would write something like this, i would include the sources i gatherred the info from as well.

2) i happen to know a thing or two about ancient turkics, but i don't think you can talk about them in the 3rd millennium BC. most of the current turkic languages (with the exception of chuvash and khalaj) are about 1,500 years old at the most, khalaj perhaps a few centuries earlier and chuvash older still. so a realistic date for common turkic is sometime in the middle of the 1st millennium BC. there can be ancient turks in 3rd millennium bc i and only if turkic is not (or not as closely as thought) related to mongolian, which indeed is a very strong possibility.

3) your postings include many words that are way too similar to have been borrowed from ancient turkic. the forms you cite would be quite different in ancient turkic from the modern forms both in shape and meaning. also, armenian, an indo-european language originally from the balkans, underwent massive transformation when it arrived to eastern anatolia and the caucasus in the 1st millenium bc, where proto-armenians encountered the urartu and other caucasian peoples. to give one example, the armenian word "erku" meaning "two" is of the same root as "two", but it takes quite some linguistic research to figure that one out.

there are i am sure many words in armenian that are of turkic origin, as there are some in some turkic languages that are of armenian origin. but their shapes would be quite different depending on which dialect they were borrowed from/borrowed into and at what time. one should also note that indo-european began to infiltrate into turkic way back in central asia in the form of tokharian. i know someone who does research on that, and it appears that some very, very basic vocab items are from tokharian. so one should be careful "finding" parallels between turkic and armenian, where the parallels may really be between turkic and other indo-european. there is also a distinct possibility that turkic and indo-european might be related, but this is a long shot. we can discuss this later on if anyone is interested

 

Nos·trat·ic -A hypothetical language proposed as the parent language of Afro-Asiatic, Altaic, Dravidian, Indo-European, Kartvelian, Uralic-Yukaghir, and perhaps other language families.

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I did not edit or abbreviate the below so we can see as many sides to the debate.

Nostratic languages-A phylogenetic representation of Nostratic as proposed by Bomhard (2008).

Nostratic is a proposed language family (sometimes called a macrofamily or a superfamily) that includes many of the indigenous language families of Eurasia, including the Indo-European, Uralic and Altaic as well as Kartvelian languages. Usually also included are the Afroasiatic languages native to Northern Africa and the Arabian Peninsula, and the Dravidian languages of the Indian Subcontinent (sometimes extended to Elamo-Dravidian, connecting India and the Persian Plateau). The exact composition and structure of the family varies among proponents.

The hypothetical ancestral language of the Nostratic family is called Proto-Nostratic.[1] Proto-Nostratic would necessarily have been spoken at an earlier time than the language families descended from it, which would place it in the Epipaleolithic period, close to the end of the last glacial period.[2]

The Nostratic hypothesis originates with Holger Pedersen in the early 20th century. The name "Nostratic" is due to Pedersen (1903), derived from the Latin nostrates "fellow countrymen". The hypothesis was significantly expanded in the 1960s by Soviet linguists, notably Vladislav Illich-Svitych and Aharon Dolgopolsky, termed the "Moscovite school" by Bomhard (2008), and it has received renewed attention in English-speaking academia since the 1990s.

The hypothesis is controversial and has varying degrees of acceptance amongst linguists worldwide. In Russia, it is endorsed by a minority of linguists, such as Vladimir Dybo, but is not a generally accepted hypothesis. Allan Bomhard is a supporter, but with a different view from that of many Nostraticists.[vague] Lyle Campbell presents arguments challenging the hypothesis. Some linguists take an agnostic view.[3] Merritt Ruhlen endorses Eurasiatic, a similar but not identical grouping. Eurasiatic was proposed by Joseph Greenberg (2000), and is taken as a subfamily of Nostratic by Allan Bomhard .

Edited July 12, 2011 by Arpa