Hayastan vs. Diaspora

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
Guys,

I will not comment on your replies for a while, so that not to derail the discussion.

No need to be combatant.

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Well! I'm well with you THERE MJ!

[Guest]

I am sorry I have been away, the only reason I haven´t posted here. As to the topic of this discussion:

 

It is very difficult for me to find differences between Hayastantsis and other diasporan Armenians.

 

The type of people I tend to look for and relate well can be found in any country or community. In the case of Armenians, more so in Armenia than in the communities, even though we have seen an enormous brain drain.

 

As I have said before I live in a country with a small community, and very few hayastanstsis have showed up here. I am nevertheless aware of the social problems that exist in California and other places, and have discussed some of them to a certain depth in other threads.

 

I subscribe to the view that there are similar people all over the world, that their affinities are more a result of educational and social background, rather than ethnicity.

 

When I read Alpha´s description of the waves of immigration and having had relatives that immigrated from Armenia myself, I can understand at least part of the social dynamic of integration or disintegration.

 

I will come back to this topic in greater length and with hopefully a more profound analysis. For the time being I will say that what will happen to the diaspora is that it will, as it has happened so many times in the past, exclude the best minds, the best people. Armenian communities all over the world, and most Armenian institutions have not being able to profit (in the good sense, naturally) from this influx of immigrants from Armenia.

[Guest]

The difference between Hayastantsi vs. Diasporan are vast. To us, Hayastantsi, Armenia means a lot of memories, relatives, and friends. Yet for diasporans Armenia is this mystical, dream country, about which they have read in the books and have seen in pictures. You can’t expect both of them to have the same attitude toward Armenia. Yet what amazes me the most is the love and dedication some Diasporan groups, especially Libananahyes, have toward Armenia. I don’t understand how can you love a country without having any direct association with it. I think Diasporans should take example from Jews. I really envy them for their dedication and love of Israel.

 

For the future of diaspora. As I have pointed out in my earlier posts, there are only 2 other diasporan groups in the world that Armenians can be compared to Jews and Greeks. If we look at Jewish example their identity is reinforced through their religious organizations. In the long run they retain their Jewish identity and successfully blend in with the American culture, without sacrificing their distinctness. Yet in the case of Greeks, Greek Orthodox Church does not have as much influence over the Greek congregation and over the years Greeks have lost and continue loosing their ethnic identity. If Armenian Apostolic Church develops the capacity to adapt to the changing environment, and through its cultural wings attracts larger Armenian following we will follow the Jewish example, if not the only thing that will remind us about our heritage will be the ian/yan ending at the end of our long last names.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by raffiaharonian:
People around me are fed-up with my continuous propaganda about Armenia, Armenians etc. I cannot help it , I think it is a germ in our blood. (Is there a doctor for it?).

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Raffi,

That is so true! I think you discovered the secret bond amongst us. Let's keep the doctors away from the newly-discovered RA Germ. I feel a Nobelian prize coming your way. Maybe in Science and Peace.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by alpha:
If we look at Jewish example their identity is reinforced through their religious organizations. In the long run they retain their Jewish identity and successfully blend in with the American culture, without sacrificing their distinctness.

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Alphanian,

The idea that the Church has been our traditional uniting force and can continue to be is something I've been kicking around in my head (and somewhere else in this Forum). I am not religious, but I am considering starting to go with my son (and wife if she's masochistic enough ) to Armenian Church. If not to regular services, then at least the functions/fund raisers. I have very fond memories of Armenian Church functions.

It disappointed me that the two Catholicos (sp?) that were in Los Angeles for the 1700th Anniversary of Armenian Christianhood, would not appear together. WHAT KIND OF MESSAGE IS THAT?????

The Jewish/Greek analogies are interesting. Don't most (or all) Jewish kids go for a summer to Israel? I forget the term for it.

[Guest]

Sadly so true, so true ..... Alpha you are so right. I relate to what you've said ....

[Guest]

Contrary to Steve , I feel that my homeland is Armenia. Although I was born in Lebanon, then came to Greece when I was only 5 years old, I always consider my county , Armenia. Whenever I am asked , what nationality I am , because we talk Armenian with family and friends, I say I am Armenian.

I love Greece, I care for Greece and I want it to be strong , wealthy and stay beautiful , but my heart belongs to Dady ( oops , that’s a song , ) , my heart belongs to Armenia.

Few years back I was considering to apply for a job in Armenia and move there, but then seeing all the misery and the ineffective governing of the country, I was hold back.

Well the future will show.

 

Having said the above I do not consider myself a better Armenian than Steve , but our experiences and upbringing are different.

 

People around me are fed-up with my continuous propaganda about Armenia, Armenians etc. I cannot help it , I think it is a germ in our blood. (Is there a doctor for it?).

[Guest]

I assure you Mike, that the Greeks are almost exactly like the Armenians.

They are divided and they argue/fight all the time. 5 Greeks can produce 15 contradicting ideas, almost like us.5 of us can produce 25 ideas......

 

The Jewish example though is to be taken into consideration.

[Guest]

Dear Raffi,

 

The Jewish example is not any different from Armenian and Greek examples. Some of my Jewish friends used to say "I wish Jews were as united as Armenians are."

 

In Armenia we always used to criticize ourselves in being divided, and bring Georgians as an example of a united nation. During the time of crises, we found that we where much more united than Georgians were.

 

We unite when it is needed. At other times, I think, the unification will be a way of life only for mentally enslaved nations.

[Guest]

Pluralism and diversity are the essence of democracy and the civil society :-)

[Guest]

Good point MJ.

However I hate us when we (Armenians) disagree on elementary issues.

Until recently in Athens ,we used to have 2 April 24 Memorial 'hantisoutioun'. The poor Armenian ambassador used to run from one to the other , just to keep both sides happy.

Isn't this stupid?

Things like this makes us look really primitive....

Pluralism is good ,if there is something to be said.Pluralism for the sake of pluralism is only 'noise pollution' factor.

[Guest]

Raffi,

 

I agree with you as far as the 'small' issues are concerned.

 

As far as the big issues are concerned, I think the disagreements in these issues are inevitable. The problem is they are too complex, and none of us have solution for them. And since none of us have solutions or convincing arguments, we indulge ourselves with the exercises of rejecting the solutions of the other side

[Guest]

I believe we have once more managed to deviate from the original topic.

 

It is rather obvious that people (like me) avoid to talk about this issue just because it creates friction and we'll start sounding too bad to each other. We have managed to become, sort-of , friends so it wouldn't be nice to start creating negative impressions...

 

Well guys and girls , isn't it so?

[Guest]

I agree with your last point MJ. However we lack the educational and knowledge level to talk about things that are only known to us through the media.

Professionals should give the proper guidelines and enlighten us with their knowledge, otherwise we'll be searching in the dark for solutions.

Goodwill is good but is not enough.

 

[This message has been edited by raffiaharonian (edited November 02, 2000).]

[Guest]

I also feel the same way. I think many members of the forum refrain from expressing their opinions because they don't want to heart somebody, or don't want to get 'chewed.'

 

Let's urge everybody to express themselves in a highly professional and ethical manner.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
The Jewish example is not any different from Armenian and Greek examples.

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But there is a strong, constructive effort by American Jews to feel connected to and support Israel. I have a few friends that aren't even that Jewish but they went to Israel.

Now within Israel, I think the fundamentalists are absolutely tearing the country apart.




[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 02, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
As far as the big issues are concerned, I think the disagreements in these issues are inevitable. The problem is they are too complex, and none of us have solution for them.

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You are very right. Emotions run much deeper than thoughts about solutions or cooperation.

Raffi, your comment about the two Hantisoutioun memorials is insane! At least that's no longer happening.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
I think many members of the forum refrain from expressing their opinions because they don't want to hurt somebody, or don't want to get 'chewed.'

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Really? It seems as if people are expressing their differing opinions. We seem to accept the idea of "agreeing to disagree"--maybe that stops some debates short, but I think it shows a mutual respect for everyone else's views. I view the behavior around here as more respectful than timid. Wanna argue about it?


It does seem like discussions have quieted down around here though. I look at posts from the first week of October and there were some hot arguments going on. Kind of glad I wasn't around then.




[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 02, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pilafhead:
But there is a strong, constructive effort by American Jews to feel connected to and support Israel. I have a few friends that aren't even that Jewish but they went to Israel.

Now within Israel, I think the fundamentalists are absolutely tearing the country apart.

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I think for the Jews for whom this is not the land of the promised, and for whom the messiah is yet to come to build Israel, the current Israel is as alien as the Republic of Armenia is to many Armenians in Diaspora.

I think this is where the issue is - is this Armenia materializing our dreams, or does one think there will be a better promise of Armenia in the future?


[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 02, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pilafhead:
Really? It seems as if people are expressing their differing opinions. We seem to accept the idea of "agreeing to disagree"--maybe that stops some debates short, but I think it shows a mutual respect for everyone else's views. I view the behavior around here as more respectful than timid. Wanna argue about it?


It does seem like discussions have quieted down around here though. I look at posts from the first week of October and there were some hot arguments going on. Kind of glad I wasn't around then.

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Mike,

I think some have expressed their opinions on the subject, some others have stayed away.

No, after seeing these two grin faces with sharp teeth, I have no courage argue about things, any more.



[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 02, 2000).]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
I think this is where the issue is - is this Armenia materializing our dreams, or does one think there will be a better promise of Armenia in the future?

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That phrase "our dreams" is interesting. It raises another issue, just whose Armenia is it? Who is staying there and why? If those that are there are happy, is it any of the diaspora's business? Are there Armenians in Hayastan that do not want the diaspora's money nor input???

Questions. Questions. Questions. Sorry for so many questions. I wish I could bring more facts and answers to this forum.

[Guest]

I think you are right. This is the question.

Regarding Diaspora's money, and the aspirations of Hayastan to get its hand around it, I have to say that this version is a way exaggeration. First of all, there is no serious money in the hands of Diaspora - let's admit it. Second, yes, indeed there are Armenians in Hayastan who don't want neither Diaspora's money, nor its meddling, because they expect nothing but disaster from Diaspora. But perhaps this latest opinion is not a wide spread one.

 

These are the questions that I hoped our thread may try to answer.

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 02, 2000).]

[Guest]

The people in Armenia who are in control, may see Diaspora as a threat to their interests. Current Armenian bourgeoisie is enjoying the monopolistic powers and as any other businessman they don’t welcome competition. Diaspora can become a competition for in the Armenian market, which might force the members of clannish business community to take actions against it. As long as fair competition is not guaranteed by the state of Armenia the interests of local and Diasporan businessman most likely will collide.

 

It’s not only Diasporas financial resources that should play a vital role in revitalizing Armenian economy. Don’t forget that we in Information age now, and human resources are as important if not more than financial resources. Look at the example of Israel. In a matter of decade or so it turned itself from relying mainly on American aid country, to the most advanced country in Middle East with per capita GDP around $16,000. In order to attract human capital to Armenia, which has experience of working in market economy, Republic of Armenia needs to implement dual citizenship laws, and guarantee the security of free human and capital movement.

[Guest]

Alpha,

 

I agree with everything you say in the previous message, except the linkage of the issue with the dual citizenship. Even the current legislation allows free movement of the capital in and out of Armenia. The only restriction in the economic sphere for non-citizens is the lack of right of owning land and real estate.

 

The real hindrance, I think, is the stupid tax code (including the so-called VAT), and the absence of legislative guarantees for investments. As far as I know, nobody has been charged yet for ripping off the manufacturer of toys - Thersian from Chicago (if I am not mistaken - at least that's where I have met him a couple of years ago). He invested several million $ in a toy factory in Yerevan, and in a year, his local partners chopped him off, depriving him of his shares. Don't know the details.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
He invested several million $ in a toy factory in Yerevan, and in a year, his local partners chopped him off, depriving him of his shares.

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All you need is one story like that to scare off multi-millions in potential investments. What investor in their right-mind would go in there after hearing that?! Unless the citizen business counterpart was a family member, I would not invest a penny.

It seems obvious that it would be in the Government's best interest to prosecute (and secure the rights of non-citizen investors in the future). The right people must have received a share of the action in the toy manufacturer's case.